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10-07-2020, 09:35 AM - 1 Like   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by Qwntm Quote
I would only add here, that if you were lets say a wedding photographer and shooting APS-c and all of a sudden all your clients were asking if you shot full frame, because all the competition in your town were pushing and shooting full frame and you started losing business, would you redouble your efforts to educate your clients about how your work is just as good or better because it's more about the skill of the photographer and not the technology in their equipment or would you just go get a full frame and level the playing field? Especially if FF cameras were the same price as APS-c cameras?

Might not be a great analogy, but if all my competition is using 4k and posting to youtube in 4k right now, today, why would I not do what the competition does especially if it costs me no extra money or time or anything else? So for me it's not about future proofing, it's what I need right now to keep up with the competition. If getting 4K video meant spending even $2500 on a camera, my videos would be in 1080p and I'd hope for the best!


I also don't see 4k video and stills capability as mutually exclusive. The Fuji XT3 and 4 are considered best in class, 26mp stills and 4k 30 oversampled and 4K60 with a slight crop. And the XT3 is only $999 USD on sale these days. The K(new) has stiff competition in 2020/21 and it's the details that will sell it or not. I don't need it to be as good as the XT series, but I do need it to be at least usable for what I'm doing if I am going to buy one. And I will buy one if it meets very minimal standards which I'm hoping it will. (Of course there's always that little hope that Pentax finally hits one out of the park...)
Yes, you do have to have an eye peeled towards the competition or new specs. A big reason I have my 645Z was because of a job spec I couldn't apply for (it was written by someone outside our unit) because I had no "digital medium format experience in a museum setting". I couldn't even apply for the job because HR put a series of questions in front of the formal application process, and if you couldn't reply affirmatively to all of the questions, your application wouldn't be considered.

That will never happen to me again.

10-07-2020, 10:01 AM   #77
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I was thinking about this today, and clean HDMI out and very good 1080 would be enough for me. And sensor which is goodwith LED light. Also some other things. I alsothink that 4 K is just the ’thing’ now, but a great codec and very good 1080 would be just enough. Althou, if onewant to ’crop’ the video or zoom in while playing, that additional resolution does make sense. Having more that that is just silly. It is not ’future prof’ it is making more money for guys selling you new stuff ’proof’.
10-07-2020, 03:05 PM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by Qwntm Quote
The following video was shot all 4k24 (as have all my recent videos) using Fuji's and the Mavic Air 2. So these cameras can definitely "do it." Now it's up to Pentax to do it.
Came to me as 720p30...


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10-07-2020, 03:59 PM - 1 Like   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Came to me as 720p30...


Steve
I played it at 4K res for fun (my screen is 1920x1080). Wow. It looks so much sharper than 1080p, I had never quite realized that... I'm not sure it's the downsampling or Youtube compression being... well, itself.

10-07-2020, 05:37 PM - 1 Like   #80
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yes

QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
I played it at 4K res for fun (my screen is 1920x1080). Wow. It looks so much sharper than 1080p, I had never quite realized that... I'm not sure it's the downsampling or Youtube compression being... well, itself.
Looking at a wide angle scene 4K and 1080 hasnt got a lot of variation,however when going close up on subjects,the extra resolution,is very noticeable.The first time i shot 4K i only had a 1080 screen to view it from but I immediately saw the difference.Since then Ive only shot 1080 when the camera i had didnt have 4K.
10-08-2020, 01:24 AM - 1 Like   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
Looking at a wide angle scene 4K and 1080 hasnt got a lot of variation,however when going close up on subjects,the extra resolution,is very noticeable.The first time i shot 4K i only had a 1080 screen to view it from but I immediately saw the difference.Since then Ive only shot 1080 when the camera i had didnt have 4K.
Yes, the face was the dead giveaway. It went from typical video look with somewhat smushed features to "oh okay this looks awfully sharp now".
10-08-2020, 01:38 AM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
"oh okay this looks awfully sharp now".
That is the most noticeable thing, the resolution is astounding.At this point in time i dont have an 8k tv(and havent missed out on the 8K Olympic broadcasts) and dont have an 8K camera.However, i'll wait and see how much difference it makes to determine if i indulge.
10-08-2020, 03:20 AM - 6 Likes   #83
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I think it is pretty clear that the forthcoming Pentax camera (s) will have 4K video. The issue till now has been that their processing engine and sensors haven't been capable. Pentax uses sensors that are generations older than current and uses a PRIME engine that is pretty ancient. That is supposed to change with the K-new. And that is fine. The actual cost of implementing 4K in your camera is small once you decide you are going to use a sensor with high read out speeds. Those who don't want to use video on their K-new won't have to and it won't hurt their still shooting experience one iota.

I will say that I think 4K versus HD video is over rated as a reason why video is watchable. I can watch an older movie, shot on black and white film if it has good editing, lighting, sound and a coherent plot and character development. So many movies shot more recently (commercial and otherwise) have high resolution video but are virtually unwatchable due to poor editing, lack of coherent narrative, etc. To me, shooting video well is much harder than shooting stills because the process of editing it into something actually watchable is extremely difficult.

10-10-2020, 02:15 AM - 3 Likes   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Pentax uses sensors that are generations older than current and uses a PRIME engine that is pretty ancient.
As 4K capable sensors become the standard for APS-C and FF, they are likely to become cheaper than any alternative anyway. I worked for a heavy engineering company with a departmental director who insisted on the supply of certain rolled steel (on which we spent £millions/yr) in an out-of date version. Everyone knew that the alternative modern version was superior in every way, and when an enquiry was at last made into the matter it was found we were paying far more for the old inferior type. The supplier explained that this was because we were the last company in the world it was still made for, and they had to set up special production runs for us.

I am not interested in video, but Pentax needs to go with the general flow to keep customers. It is not as if development costs are involved, Pentax sources this stuff. As you say, it does not affect the stills capability.
10-10-2020, 02:47 AM - 1 Like   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lord Lucan Quote
As 4K capable sensors become the standard for APS-C and FF, they are likely to become cheaper than any alternative anyway. I worked for a heavy engineering company with a departmental director who insisted on the supply of certain rolled steel (on which we spent £millions/yr) in an out-of date version. Everyone knew that the alternative modern version was superior in every way, and when an enquiry was at last made into the matter it was found we were paying far more for the old inferior type. The supplier explained that this was because we were the last company in the world it was still made for, and they had to set up special production runs for us.

I am not interested in video, but Pentax needs to go with the general flow to keep customers. It is not as if development costs are involved, Pentax sources this stuff. As you say, it does not affect the stills capability.
The unfortunate thing is that it doesn't seem to improve still capability either. Most of these cameras don't do any better than a K-1 II or KP would do with regard to image quality -- they just can take lots more images. The focus has been on improving read out speed rather than on improving high iso performance or dynamic range. That's fine, but personally I don't need a camera that can capture 20 frames per second, 4 is probably fine for me as long as they are in focus.
10-10-2020, 03:00 AM - 1 Like   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
The unfortunate thing is that it doesn't seem to improve still capability either. Most of these cameras don't do any better than a K-1 II or KP would do with regard to image quality -- they just can take lots more images. The focus has been on improving read out speed rather than on improving high iso performance or dynamic range. That's fine, but personally I don't need a camera that can capture 20 frames per second, 4 is probably fine for me as long as they are in focus.
While that is true, the cost for producing those sensors is not necessarily higher, so it doesn't have to have an impact on the camera's price. We are getting stuff that people like you or me don't really need, but at least we are not getting charged massively for it...

I suspect that IQ has really hit a wall, sensor-wise. There are physical limits to resolution - those smartphone images at 100% are downright smeared, because pixel pitch is too small. And on the other hand a pixel is a pixel - there isn't much you can do at base ISO to improve IQ. So the only real way to increase IQ is medium and large format (with those 645 Phase One backs), but I ain't doing that for a bunch of reasons .

That said, I'm perfectly content with the K-1's IQ. I don't need more, at all.
10-10-2020, 03:15 AM - 2 Likes   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
While that is true, the cost for producing those sensors is not necessarily higher, so it doesn't have to have an impact on the camera's price. We are getting stuff that people like you or me don't really need, but at least we are not getting charged massively for it...

I suspect that IQ has really hit a wall, sensor-wise. There are physical limits to resolution - those smartphone images at 100% are downright smeared, because pixel pitch is too small. And on the other hand a pixel is a pixel - there isn't much you can do at base ISO to improve IQ. So the only real way to increase IQ is medium and large format (with those 645 Phase One backs), but I ain't doing that for a bunch of reasons .

That said, I'm perfectly content with the K-1's IQ. I don't need more, at all.
I'm fine with a K-1, if the buffer was better and the tracking auto focus a little better. I have shared that my wife shoots weddings and both of those things are her big quibbles with shooting with a K-1 and K-1 II.

I do think the K-1 sequel will be a bit more expensive though -- not because of the sensor (although that will probably be pricier too), but all of the other components that go into making a camera that has better specs than the K-1.
10-10-2020, 03:34 AM - 1 Like   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I'm fine with a K-1, if the buffer was better and the tracking auto focus a little better. I have shared that my wife shoots weddings and both of those things are her big quibbles with shooting with a K-1 and K-1 II.

I do think the K-1 sequel will be a bit more expensive though -- not because of the sensor (although that will probably be pricier too), but all of the other components that go into making a camera that has better specs than the K-1.
Certainly! My point was related to sheer IQ only. I don't shoot weddings nor wildlife so the K-1 has a perfectly cromulent AF and buffer for my needs... although even I have noticed the camera taking a while to write to the SD (or even to delete photos sometimes).

Better tracking algorithms, higher burst and buffer (say, would something like 8 fps and 40 raw files?) with a relatively fast clearing speed should be both "good enough" and possible - for that I'd say the 42 MP chip of the A7R3 or the 45 MP chip of the D850 are the only options? With such sensor resolution and the processing power needed to run it, the 4K30p requirements basically fulfill themselves, so it wouldn't be a lot of effort to also get that.

The improvements in hardwarse would push the camera closer (or straight up) to $3000, but it would have Pentaxians set for a good while. It would basically be a "fixed" K-1.
10-10-2020, 05:33 AM - 1 Like   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
Certainly! My point was related to sheer IQ only. I don't shoot weddings nor wildlife so the K-1 has a perfectly cromulent AF and buffer for my needs... although even I have noticed the camera taking a while to write to the SD (or even to delete photos sometimes).

Better tracking algorithms, higher burst and buffer (say, would something like 8 fps and 40 raw files?) with a relatively fast clearing speed should be both "good enough" and possible - for that I'd say the 42 MP chip of the A7R3 or the 45 MP chip of the D850 are the only options? With such sensor resolution and the processing power needed to run it, the 4K30p requirements basically fulfill themselves, so it wouldn't be a lot of effort to also get that.

The improvements in hardwarse would push the camera closer (or straight up) to $3000, but it would have Pentaxians set for a good while. It would basically be a "fixed" K-1.
I'm sort of in the camp of "How much improvement can you do for around 2500?" The K-1 sequel won't be a sports camera, but it still can be better in a lot of respects and do, as you say, 8 fps and have a 40 raw buffer with faster SD card support for faster buffer clearing. I would be satisfied with that.
10-10-2020, 06:47 AM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by Qwntm Quote
LOL, I am still trying to figure out how to get my software to play the 265 codec! And unless I switch to Sony, I shoot video with manual exposure and manual focus. So if the KP did 4k, It would be perfect for me right now.

---------- Post added 10-07-20 at 09:09 AM ----------



Absolutely. I am in no way putting him down, though I guess it did come across like that. He is working it and deserves all the success he achieves. My point was that I don't think people understand the HUGE effort it takes to do what he's done in so short a time.
Ya, well those who want to know do.

It till sounds like a social/ peer pressure thing.

I got my ZS100 for $600 complete with a 24-250 zoom. It' does great 4k video. It fits in my camera bag and takes less room than my larger lenses. I feel absolutely no compulsion to buy a still camera for 4k video. If I need video I have it. And personally, I don't even want video on the same camera as my stills. The second last wedding I shot, I got a few buddies to shoot video, while I shot mostly stills. I"m not one of those guys who shoots with one camera, with no splices for different cameras angles etc. If, you're going to shoot video, make it professional.
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