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10-04-2020, 10:25 PM - 3 Likes   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Qwntm Quote
So do I "need" 4K? Yup. If the goal is to have a successful channel on Youtube, then that's the standard to shoot for, and is easily achieved shooting Fuji. So IMHO, 4K is needed right now.
Many would disagree, Qwntm. They'd say it's a bit like 3D TV - hyped.

It is a requirement of Netflix that if they commission from you, it's 4k, but broadcast TV can't use 4k at all, DVDs can't either. As for YouTube, I tried playing your first video at 4k and it kept stuttering out on my fairly typical suburban Melbourne broadband. Netflix might commission 4k, but overwhelmingly, it's watched at HD or lower rates.

As an example, Tony and Chelsea Northrup said 4k is essentially a commercial failure, even for them. They reequipped their entire studio and processing suite to operate on 4k, and found through their stats that a negligible amount of their huge subscriber base ever got their content at 4k.

It was overhyped, and wasn't worth it in their case. And no one is more popular than them in photography vlogging!

10-04-2020, 10:46 PM - 5 Likes   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
It was overhyped, and wasn't worth it in their case. And no one is more popular than them in photography vlogging!
I will comment on this, as I choose to use 4K gear for making vlogs and teaching videos and YouTube. We downsample our 4K recordings to 1080p for publishing at the moment. This results in a very 'clean' high quality video output. Using 4K also future proofs the recordings for a few years time when the standard will be more widely adopted.

That was the thinking that went my decision making.
10-05-2020, 02:02 AM - 1 Like   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Qwntm Quote
Thomas Heaton, Ben Horne, Nick Page, Nigel Danson, to name a few are ALL posting exclusively 4K content, as are most everyone in those categories, and most successful channels in general on YouTube.
But I don't watch them in 4K, and I doubt that more than a tiny percentage of people do. But it gives them bragging rights I suppose.

Technical question : even if they upload it to YouTube in 4K, does YouTube actually send it out in 4K anyway? Like PF itself lets you upload stills in high resolution but you can only download them in a lower one, around 1500 px horizontal AFAIR.

---------- Post added 05-10-20 at 02:18 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I like my Lumix ZS100's 4k video. I've shot at least 5 minutes video with it.
I'm not sure what to make of that - was that meant to be ironic?

I have also done about 5 minutes in the 4 years of owning my K-1 : it was to show the working of a mechanism on another technical website. It did the job and I was not trying to create a work of art, so a basic video capability can be handy. But if I wanted works of art or did video as a hobby, I'd get a camcorder.
10-05-2020, 05:15 AM   #34
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Okay, I was a bit confused at the beginning, but now I'm totally confused. You have a camera that does wonderful 4K video but you NEED 4K in a Pentax but "The key to shooting stills and video of the same thing is to have multiple cameras. My $499 Fuji XE-3 does 4K 30 FPS video and makes a great 2nd camera" confused2

10-05-2020, 05:16 AM - 3 Likes   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lord Lucan Quote
...if I wanted works of art or did video as a hobby, I'd get a camcorder.
Actually, the chances are very, very good that you wouldn't buy a traditional camcorder. The bigger sensors in ILCs give a great cinematic look to things so many folks are switching over to them...which is kinda the OP's point. It's just the way the market is going. Last week, we tossed out several of the traditional, large, heavy, VERY EXPENSIVE ENG cameras because we've moved to mirrorless. Sure, some things are harder using a mirrorless camera, but now I can carry in a backpack what I used to use a large cart to transport before. And I just thought we were downsizing. A month or so ago, I shot alongside a woman from one of the local tv stations. She'd been sent out to shoot with only a smartphone, a small tripod, and a gimbal.

A few years back, I was set up on top of a mountain waiting on sunset. Well, this is Oklahoma, so it was more like a really large hill. There was another fellow next to me from out of state who was using a Lumix G-5. In talking to him, I learned that he was following the changing of the leaves, shooting both video and stills for his business. I asked him if he had any issues switching back and forth from stills to video and he said that he no longer bothers with it. He just uses a still frame from his 4K video (about 8 megapixels) and uses that to make his art prints. At the time, which was before we, too, switched to using G-5s, I thought that was probably pushing things. But here on this forum, we have threads devoted to the "6 Megapixel Club" and the K10D, which is only about 10 megapixels, so why not do things that way?
10-05-2020, 05:25 AM - 2 Likes   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
Okay, I was a bit confused at the beginning, but now I'm totally confused. You have a camera that does wonderful 4K video but you NEED 4K in a Pentax but "The key to shooting stills and video of the same thing is to have multiple cameras. My $499 Fuji XE-3 does 4K 30 FPS video and makes a great 2nd camera" :confused2:
Keeping everything within the same brand gives a consistent look to the stills and the video, I guess.
10-05-2020, 06:34 AM - 1 Like   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
He just uses a still frame from his 4K video (about 8 megapixels)
In camera screen grabs are used on social media as well.

There are many uses for the stills from 4K or now 8K footage(33mp on R5).

10-05-2020, 07:28 AM - 2 Likes   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
Okay, I was a bit confused at the beginning, but now I'm totally confused. You have a camera that does wonderful 4K video but you NEED 4K in a Pentax but "The key to shooting stills and video of the same thing is to have multiple cameras. My $499 Fuji XE-3 does 4K 30 FPS video and makes a great 2nd camera" :confused2:
From the perspective of my chair, the original post is a mild rant against the brand "not keeping up" and little more. If it were me, the two camera solution would be obvious, but the second camera would probably be the K-1. As with 4K, there is a certain expectation of the larger sensor for serious landscape work.


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10-05-2020, 09:16 AM - 1 Like   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by NZ_Ross Quote
I will comment on this, as I choose to use 4K gear for making vlogs and teaching videos and YouTube. We downsample our 4K recordings to 1080p for publishing at the moment. This results in a very 'clean' high quality video output. Using 4K also future proofs the recordings for a few years time when the standard will be more widely adopted.

That was the thinking that went my decision making.
Yeah, you might argue that it's for the future, Ross, rather than the now, but that's not the YouTube argument ... those guys need hits this week, and every week, or they don't get paid. What they're doing is broadcast TV.

And delivery is actually what it's about. You might have downsampled to HD, but that footage all crumbles under streaming compression, it doesn't matter what it looked like in your study when you clicked on the Export button.

Do you remember Game of Thrones? That's shot in 4k. But pretty much everyone in the world saw it in HD over the Internet. One of the key episodes set at night looked great to the editors in front of their big monitors with its epic battle scene.

But for viewers, after being compressed for transmission by Netflix, it arrived with those scenes crushed to black. People were listening to the audio to help work out what was going on.

So I think there's this enormous gap between theory and practice. If you put a 4k video up, almost none of us will see it in 4k, or how you rendered it in 1080, either.

FWIW, as far as Ricoh goes, I think it almost certain the K-new will have 4k video.

But that'll end up being another feature I don't use, but pay for. I edit phone footage in HD and once did a Panasonic GH5 shoot in HD because of the audience's devices and my own editing laptop, which was thankful for big files a quarter the size they might have been.

And I think my situation is the 'normal' one for camera owners. If the Northrups couldn't justify it financially - and they do it full time for a living - I certainly can't.

On a related topic, search on YouTube for Albert Siegel, a valued longtime Pentax Forums member and contributor who's very close to 1000 subscribers, and help him out. His channel might become financially viable. He's got a genuine journalist background unlike the Cameraville guy. You also might show your support for the videos made by Kobie Mercury-Clarke and Eddy Summers (Bruce Banner).

Last edited by clackers; 10-05-2020 at 09:26 AM.
10-05-2020, 09:39 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by roberrl Quote
Although we still don't know the full spec for K-new it seems to me that what has been revealed so far (no flippy screen, enhanced viewfinder) suggests this camera is going into some market area which does not care about video, not much about action photography and no desire to compete with the big boys in general.
While I have no problem with Ricoh/Pentax choosing and following their niche (it's their business after all) I'm sad that the manufacturer I have followed for 6 decades is moving away from my use case.
I have often had the need to capture stills and video at the same event and tried carrying both sorts of camera - it's a PITA.
I know this view does not fit with the majority view on the forum - it might be wrong headed but it's the truth as I see it.
Actually its your truth not everyone's truth. As for action photography, how do you know that little tidbit?
10-05-2020, 09:40 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Many would disagree, Qwntm. They'd say it's a bit like 3D TV - hyped.

It is a requirement of Netflix that if they commission from you, it's 4k, but broadcast TV can't use 4k at all, DVDs can't either. As for YouTube, I tried playing your first video at 4k and it kept stuttering out on my fairly typical suburban Melbourne broadband. Netflix might commission 4k, but overwhelmingly, it's watched at HD or lower rates.

As an example, Tony and Chelsea Northrup said 4k is essentially a commercial failure, even for them. They reequipped their entire studio and processing suite to operate on 4k, and found through their stats that a negligible amount of their huge subscriber base ever got their content at 4k.

It was overhyped, and wasn't worth it in their case. And no one is more popular than them in photography vlogging!
Yes, I agree with all you say, but I can't help but notice that all of the Northrup's videos are still being released in 2160p 4K on YouTube. One of the things I've also noticed is that most of the successful photographers on Youtube don't seem to be burdened with "typical suburban...broadband." I won't say any more, but lets just say, my own videos stutter out at 4K as well. On a good day I can watch at 1440p...

I am not sure what "reequipped their entire studio and processing suite to operate on 4k," means for them, but for me it came free with the Fuji's and Mavic A2 and Gopro, and I'm marginally into gaming, so my computer was already there, no problem. (A $1000.00 USD PC gaming computer which I already had, has no issues at all with anything photo or 4K video related.)

I really want to buy the new Pentax cameras, but will have a hard time spending the money if they don't do 4K, because they will have less useful value to me as I already have a 4K workflow, whether it's truly valuable or not.

---------- Post added 10-05-20 at 09:49 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
From the perspective of my chair, the original post is a mild rant against the brand "not keeping up" and little more. If it were me, the two camera solution would be obvious, but the second camera would probably be the K-1. As with 4K, there is a certain expectation of the larger sensor for serious landscape work.


Steve
Nope, not a rant about Pentax not keeping up, that would be futile.


My original post was actually a response to a closed thread on the rumors page, as you know. I can't help but think it's a bit out of context here. But it is what it is.

Basically I want to buy the new Pentax cameras, but won't want to spend the cash unless they do 4K.

I am a long time Pentax user, I want to use Pentax, I want to give Pentax my money. They don't have to "keep up," but it would be nice if they were within 3-4 years of where the industry has gone.

Last edited by Qwntm; 10-05-2020 at 09:53 AM.
10-05-2020, 09:59 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Larrymc Quote
As for action photography, how do you know that little tidbit?
I think he does motorsport.


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10-05-2020, 03:27 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Qwntm Quote
Yes, I agree with all you say, but I can't help but notice that all of the Northrup's videos are still being released in 2160p 4K on YouTube.
That's because he's spent all the money, he's got all the gear. But he made a video, if you want to find it, saying it was a mistake.

And his is the most financially successful photography vlogger channel on the planet!

For those who love gadgets rather than practicality, there is not only the pressure to deliver 3D but 8k now.
10-05-2020, 04:15 PM - 1 Like   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Qwntm Quote
Basically I want to buy the new Pentax cameras, but won't want to spend the cash unless they do 4K.
Almost certainly they will, Edward.

We can see the absurd compulsion that everything be 4k in one of the Fuji models, which was a bit like the GR.

IIRC, it has a 4k mode, so they can say that it does 4k, but at *15fps*.

I mean, I've seen Powerpoint slideshows with faster rates than that. It's stick figure or Charlie Chaplin territory.
10-05-2020, 04:20 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Qwntm Quote
One of the things I've also noticed is that most of the successful photographers on Youtube don't seem to be burdened with "typical suburban...broadband."
Of course they are!

And I bet an analysis of their traffic, like the Northrups bothered to do, would reveal that.

Us, your public, are watching 480 or 720 or just maybe 1080 - all heavily compressed.
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