[DWS1]

There was a time when the phrase, "Made in Japan", was the punch line to standing jokes about cheap, low quality, junk products. The Japanese camera companies basically got their footholds by making low cost knock offs of the European cameras. However, they continued to research, develop, and innovate to the point of being a world leader today.

[AggieDad]

In the photo industry, I think we're seeing China just go past the budget manufacturing phase. The Laowa lens range include niche products, which almost nobody else designs and even with a few quirks, optical quality of several of them is with the best. The Godox flash range is unique with a consistent control protocol from tiny 2xAA-powered speedlights to battery powered and studio monolights, all working across brands, most with TLL support and/or HSS for nearly all cameras. That's unmatched in the industry, as far as I can tell. They may not be the very top end with respect to quality, but close in terms of innovation.

You are probably right. I was thinking in a more general way, but I understand your viewpoint. Perhaps they are moving a bit faster than I realize.

[Des]

Sharp Japanese camera price increases ... Looking at the trend in the last few years, I've notice steady increase of camera prices.

I'm not saying this proposition is wrong (I don't know), but since this is the premise of the whole discussion, can we have some evidence? Need to compare apples with apples (e.g. FF with FF, APS-C with APS-C, M43 with M43) and take out the effect of currency movements.

BTW, "sharp" increases and "steady increases" in camera prices are not the same thing.

I have some difficulty with the next (implied) premise in the argument - that price increases are attributable to high costs of manufacturing in Japan. Although there has been a lot of talk about Nikon undertaking drastic cost-cutting, including moving manufacturing offshore, as I understand it Nikon has already moved a lot of its manufacturing to Thailand. Isn't a lot of photographic equipment from other Japanese companies also made in China, the Philippines or Vietnam?

[PePe]

It is all obvious that manufacturing and assembly have moved to low-cost countries. However, if you analyze the value content of an advanced technology product like a camera, you find that the value added in the manufacturing phase is a only a tiny fraction of the total value generated. For a product like this r&d and design are typically the biggest chunks. Therefore the big question is where these operations are located.
Apple has realized this already years ago, and many other companies are doing the same. I wonder where Canon, Nikon, Pentax and other camera manufacturers have their design activities?

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Last edited by PePe; 01-27-2021 at 07:18 AM.

[bdery]

Isn’t Irix Swiss or something?

Polish, but made in Asia.

[Rondec]

My impression is that the increase in prices on camera gear has to do with fewer units being moved -- particularly on the high end stuff. The price of components has probably come down a little bit, but when you are selling half of the number of cameras you did a couple of years ago, you have to price stuff high.

[biz-engineer]

Camera market is shrinking rapidly due to booming of mobile phones and advance of portable photography technology. The market will be smaller and smaller. It is a trend. We will see that the price will be higher and higher.

Prices can go up forever. Mobile phone don't zoom very well, mostly fixed wide angle lenses. Lenses can be changed on ILC to cover a wide range of applications, which can't be replaced by a phone.

About market void of affordable products , I was referring to the appearance of low cost airlines such as Ryan Air, Easy Jet & others and are now (outside of COVID times) competing against the big airline companies.

I saw more and more new lenses coming from Chinese brands new entrant to the lens market. Another question I asked myself is " why are we seeing more and more lenses from Chinese OEM, but no cameras ? (Well except DJI owning Hasselblad and one other company (I forgot the name).

---------- Post added 27-01-21 at 17:41 ----------

The price of components has probably come down a little bit, but when you are selling half of the number of cameras you did a couple of years ago, you have to price stuff high.

I can understand that. But maybe a significant number of camera users don't want to buy a $5000 camera when their current model will stop working. There should be a replacement market , of cameras that are good enough and affordable. What can happen is main brands go for premium products , leaving an empty space between mobile phones and premium cameras.

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Last edited by biz-engineer; 01-27-2021 at 09:43 AM.

[pres589]

You must be a lot older than me then.

Microsoft forced the closure of Nokia's phone plant in Salo, FI back in 2015. It hasn't been that long.

As for other countries of origin for 3rd party glass, it does seem like there's some interesting developments from places where only lower quality optics were previously expected. What's sort of funny is how Leica's M mount seems to be used a lot for newer glass from China. Sort of feels like the new M42 mount.

[Rondec]

Prices can go up forever. Mobile phone don't zoom very well, mostly fixed wide angle lenses. Lenses can be changed on ILC to cover a wide range of applications, which can't be replaced by a phone.

About market void of affordable products , I was referring to the appearance of low cost airlines such as Ryan Air, Easy Jet & others and are now (outside of COVID times) competing against the big airline companies.

I saw more and more new lenses coming from Chinese brands new entrant to the lens market. Another question I asked myself is " why are we seeing more and more lenses from Chinese OEM, but no cameras ? (Well except DJI owning Hasselblad and one other company (I forgot the name).

---------- Post added 27-01-21 at 17:41 ----------


I can understand that. But maybe a significant number of camera users don't want to buy a $5000 camera when their current model will stop working. There should be a replacement market , of cameras that are good enough and affordable. What can happen is main brands go for premium products , leaving an empty space between mobile phones and premium cameras.

You don't have to spend thousands on cameras. A K70 and 18-135 will be a nice combo and will set you back 800 dollars.

There are pretty reasonably priced full frame cameras out there as well. Of course the top end cameras are super expensive, but it has always been that way.

[biz-engineer]

You don't have to spend thousands on cameras. A K70 and 18-135 will be a nice combo and will set you back 800 dollars.

These are old models. Currently, most models that are affordable are old model still on sale. Almost everything new from 2020 onwards is more expensive, lower priced products aren't being renewed. So, that means in 2 to 3 years, there will be only expensive cameras or mobiles phones.

[BigMackCam]

maybe a significant number of camera users don't want to buy a $5000 camera when their current model will stop working. There should be a replacement market , of cameras that are good enough and affordable. What can happen is main brands go for premium products , leaving an empty space between mobile phones and premium cameras.

That's called the secondary (or "used", or "second-hand") market, where folks who can't afford the latest and greatest cameras and lenses go to buy excellent equipment at big discounts

[gatorguy]

That's called the secondary (or "used", or "second-hand") market, where folks who can't afford the latest and greatest cameras and lenses go to buy excellent equipment at big discounts

I resemble that remark.

[RobA_Oz]

Polish, but made in Asia.

I had a Janpol enlarger lens, a long time ago, when I was doing my own colour printing. I now have an Irix 15mm. So, I have two Polish lenses that (sort of) bookend my serious (amateur) photography life, hopefully not to become literal bookends. I could say that some of my best friends are from Poland.

Reverting to topic, I recall over twenty years ago that a couple of my engineering colleagues undertook a study tour of Chinese industry, and reported back that there was some serious engineering design work going on there, so it shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone who lives outside their local bubble that China is producing some high-standard optical work now. At some point in the future (how soon, I couldn’t begin to say) they’ll go the same way as Japan with their prices, as wages continue to rise and one of the inevitable outcomes of the One Child Policy impacts their workforce.

[BigMackCam]

I recall over twenty years ago that a couple of my engineering colleagues undertook a study tour of Chinese industry, and reported back that there was some serious engineering design work going on there, so it shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone who lives outside their local bubble that China is producing some high-standard optical work now. At some point in the future (how soon, I couldn’t begin to say) they’ll go the same way as Japan with their prices, as wages continue to rise and one of the inevitable outcomes of the One Child Policy impacts their workforce.

I agree, the ingenuity and much of the quality coming out of China these days is pretty impressive - far more so than, say, 20 years ago... I also agree that it will go the same way as Japan, and before too long China will no longer be the low-cost option for design and/or manufacturing.

I've mentioned before - in relation to the same topic, I think - how this happened in the guitar-making industry. American-made instruments were the high-end, gold standard. Japanese instruments used to be the cheaper, poorer relation. Now, Japanese instruments are almost (in some cases, equally) as respected, and nearly as expensive. Even Chinese-made instruments - the better ones - are no longer cheap. Indonesia and India were, when I last checked, the new low-cost guitar-making countries... and I'm sure, over time, they'll become established and respected enough that low-cost manufacture moves to yet another country.

And so it goes...

[Sidney Porter]

Year in year out the top camera (changeable lens) is one of the entry level canon rebels, according to Amazon. A package in the $500-$700 range. Until phones can handle school age sports / stage performance I don't see the entry level going away