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01-18-2022, 10:41 AM - 3 Likes   #76
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I'll flip it around a different way.

Never before have any of us had the wealth of creative options that we have today.

Want to shoot film on a new lens? Check.
Want to shoot JPEG on a new camera with a vintage lens? Check.
Want to use the image right out of the camera? Check.
Want to shoot video using a vintage lens? Check.
Want to shoot video with digital processing? Check.

And on
And on.

For me it's about how to leverage the amazing wealth of options we have today (and never had "back" in the film days).

Just one guy's POV...

01-18-2022, 10:41 AM - 1 Like   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by gofour3 Quote
That's why I shot only Kodachrome for years, everything was controlled to Kodak specifications in authorized processing labs. Also zero post processing as well, just get out your Carousel projector and enjoy.

Phil.
I shot Kodachrome for decades too, but "everything" was definitely not controlled. You' d photograph the same subject on frame 37 of one roll and frame 1 of the next and you wondered who stuck that magenta or green filter on your lens in between shots. Not so much in the Kii era but definitely in the 25/64 era, including the "Pro" flavors. Kind of like when I'm photographing some subject with my Pentax today and sometimes the camera decides to radically change the AWB between photos.
01-18-2022, 10:42 AM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by wadge22 Quote
I dunno.
Back in the film days there was a lot of learning to be done on post processing, too: developing and enlarging.
And you know, some people always left it to that day's version of "artificial intelligence," too... sending the film to a professional lab to get your prints.
My mother was a lab technician in the photo and graphics department of a big community college. To hear some of her stories, I have no doubt there have always been plenty of folks (even among those pursuing the trade) who were, erm, not super skilled...
QuoteOriginally posted by turbo_bird Quote
That's an interesting point about the film lab being yesterday's AI. I certainly used that when I got film, and what I got back from them was what I got. There weren't very many times that I had any input on any adjustments that were done to my photos. Now I've played a little bit with one or two trials of AI photo software, but I'm not much of a fan.
Kristian
Many years ago, a classmate of mine took the effort to bracket his shots, not sure which would give the best representation of the scene and then forgot that the prints were being processed in a lab that made the overall exposure of every print meet some preset criteria,

The result was he got 3 identical looking prints, even though the density of the negatives was different.

---------- Post added 01-18-22 at 12:49 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by JoelA Quote
I'll flip it around a different way.

Never before have any of us had the wealth of creative options that we have today.

Want to shoot film on a new lens? Check.
Want to shoot JPEG on a new camera with a vintage lens? Check.
Want to use the image right out of the camera? Check.
Want to shoot video using a vintage lens? Check.
Want to shoot video with digital processing? Check.

And on
And on.

For me it's about how to leverage the amazing wealth of options we have today (and never had "back" in the film days).

Just one guy's POV...
But we have had endless discussions on jpeg settings, for example, which I really relate to selecting one of the vast number of films (when film was the thing) to get the look you wanted
01-18-2022, 10:52 AM - 3 Likes   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by Signguy Quote
… their "photographs" taken with their phones just don't seam to have that "awe" factor (as Gavin Hardcastle would put it) …
I am greatly, nay trezmendously cheered there is another fan of Lord Crustcastle in these storied halls. I trust you also peruse the musings of his perennial sidekick, the Grumpmeister?

There’s a point to this - if those who despise Photoshoppery and all its works would care to view some of Uncle Grumpy’s YouTube videos, they will see examples of gentle processing with the original raw file shown first, then the cropped, tweaked final results. I’ve been watching him for several years to my benefit and education.

Adam Gibbs - YouTube

01-18-2022, 10:52 AM   #80
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have to skip in a bit, but there are things taken out of context from all of us.

How does one claim to be a professional photographer, when once relies solely upon photo editing to make an image? When basic skill and knowledge is replaced simply by the photo shop AI program...
01-18-2022, 11:12 AM - 2 Likes   #81
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I wonder how many seeing the 'sad state' of photography have cars or operate their TVs without remotes, still use 8mm film, vinyl records, sony walkmans and other such technologies which have been superceded through technical advance - or is Photography considered to be the untouchable even though most photographers (even those who like to call themselves 'TOGS' and love to spend hours discussing 'circles of confusion' ) use digital cameras and lenses made almost optically pefect through the use of state of the art equipment.

Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything. - George Bernard Shaw
01-18-2022, 11:13 AM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by filmmaster Quote
A long time ago, common sense and skill ruled photography. If you needed to deal with alot of sun, you got a lens hood on your lens. If you were dealing with reflections in stuff, you got a CPL on that lens and fiddled till it was good again.

Now, in the world of photography those basics concepts are GONE.. I am serious. Really I am. I guess the ability to use the AI feature in photo shop has destroyed skill or common sense. Afterall the certified professional photographer course of study is 35% digital post production. And the CPP test itself is going by several older tests found online, roughly 40% digital editing based.

And roughly 10% based on basic camera knowledge like shutter speed, iso, aperture, and dealing with common issues solved with a lens hood.

On forums i have been, people who have sold services as a photographer for 10 or more years, have been excited by newbies to cameras, who have exclaimed "i did a shoot with a friend, i took 400 photos and I actually got ONE that was good enough to edit in photo shop".

And called them skilled...

I attended a wedding a few years ago. It wasnt great but i had taken my nikon d7500 and my vitomatic II to do some specialized photos. I wasnt allowed to take them out of the car sadly.

The so called professional photographer was an idiot. Sure the woman had scouted the the wedding spot 2 weeks before but had not been smart enough to go back the previous day due to the weather changing.. fall weddings outside require that effort you know. SO when the wedding started, the woman could only do half the photo work because she couldnt PUT A LENS HOOD on the lens..

Could not comprehend that she would have to change positions for shooting based on those conditions, just absolutely failed..

But worse yet was her "student/assitant". They TRIED to do a photo of the bride inside a room with the blinds closed... absolutely could not do a thing. They had to turn the lights on and open the blinds wide open.. Even though the camera being used by the 'profesional" was a Nikon D5.

And in the photos I saw.... the camera had been left in the auto exposure setting.....
Reminds me of when I was working for a school photography and publishing company several years ago. They were looking for photographers with experience. One person was assigned to photograph at a school (first one I believe) and had to be shown how to operate the camera, change settings, and have it all explained. I was surprised that person lasted more than a couple years. I don't recall how the photos turned out.

01-18-2022, 11:21 AM - 1 Like   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by filmmaster Quote
have to skip in a bit, but there are things taken out of context from all of us.

How does one claim to be a professional photographer, when once relies solely upon photo editing to make an image? When basic skill and knowledge is replaced simply by the photo shop AI program...
A bit of a contrived staement there as you do need a camera in the first place and you do need to have the skill to use it in order to get an image to the post process stage as no software can recover blown highlights/shadows, out of focus or badly blurred images.

So a professional photographer cannot use photo editing ? Or if they can how much is too much ? Do you assume there is no skill or knowledge required to phot edit ?
01-18-2022, 11:33 AM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by filmmaster Quote
have to skip in a bit, but there are things taken out of context from all of us.

How does one claim to be a professional photographer, when once relies solely upon photo editing to make an image? When basic skill and knowledge is replaced simply by the photo shop AI program...
"Professional" simply means "engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career" - i.e. doing it for money. It doesn't mean the professional is (or has to be) especially skilled in that activity (though if you were paying for their services, you'd hope they might be).

Regarding the photo editing aspect, it's not quite as you describe it. They're not relying solely on editing... The photographer had to consider the aesthetics of the image - both as seen by their eye and in their mental vision of the finished article - and capture the photograph as a starting point before they began working on it in Photoshop... so even if the camera was on full auto, some artistic ability was required at the very least. Then, they had to be able to use Photoshop to make the edits (which is a whole bunch of skills in itself). Even if you or I don't like the original photo and/or the subsequent editing of it (including AI "improvements"), the act of photography - "the art or process of producing images of objects on photosensitive surfaces" - was an essential part of the workflow.

There are folks making heavy use of post-processing and editing in their photography, sure - but plenty of us use it far more subtly, and do so routinely. Even those who shoot straight-from-camera, unedited JPEGs benefit from post-processing - it's just that the camera is doing it for them (and that's fine too). Different strokes for different folks... it's all good. How someone else produces their photographic artwork really isn't any concern of mine. It doesn't prevent you and I from doing things the way we prefer. Where's the problem?

Last edited by BigMackCam; 01-18-2022 at 12:49 PM.
01-18-2022, 11:44 AM - 1 Like   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by tokyoscape Quote
IMHO, it sounds like it has to do with people's "ego" more than the use of technology and photography to me.
Some people know enough about a topic to think they know more than most people, but when someone come up with a question on the topic, their ego shifted the focus from the subject of conversations to his/herself. (it might sound like you offend them when you just offer what you know and have no intention of offending them whatsoever.)
There are a lot of people with huge ego like that on internet and pretty much in any professional, photography included.
I would just ignore it.
You've described why I have never had, and never will have, any social media accounts. And yes, I am old, 74 years' worth of old. And have been shooting and processing my own b&w for 59 of those years. We can teach younger analog newbies IF they choose to let us do so. It's similar to proselytizing your faith: You can respectfully and lovingly lay out what you know as truth, but you cannot force folks to believe it.
01-18-2022, 11:46 AM - 1 Like   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by filmmaster Quote
How does one claim to be a professional photographer, when once relies solely upon photo editing to make an image? When basic skill and knowledge is replaced simply by the photo shop AI program...
Interesting discussion, and one that arises periodically.

I don't have a lot to offer to the thread, other than to ask "What is photography?"

Any maybe a second question: What is the threshold beyond which photo editing 'kills' photography? I regularly tweak my images in post processing to make my final images. Am I not a photographer practicing photography?

- Craig

Last edited by c.a.m; 01-18-2022 at 12:19 PM.
01-18-2022, 12:10 PM - 1 Like   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by filmmaster Quote
have to skip in a bit, but there are things taken out of context from all of us.

How does one claim to be a professional photographer, when once relies solely upon photo editing to make an image? When basic skill and knowledge is replaced simply by the photo shop AI program...
I think you’re right about things taken out of context. ”When basic skill and knowledge is replaced simply by the photo shop AI program.” Do you think the user loads an image into Photoshop and the program makes the adjustments without further effort by the user? Because that’s what an AI program would do.

I get the impression you don’t actually know anything functional about Photoshop or post processing other than to view it with scorn. So allow a counter-example from my own darkroom days. A friend complained he couldn’t get his sunset photo to print without either the sky having all the spectacular details washed out or the foreground almost solid black. On being shown how to dodge the foreground and burn in the sky he protested “That’s cheating!! I’m afraid I laughed at his protests. So how about it, is that cheating? That’s what we do in post-processing. Over to you.
01-18-2022, 12:29 PM   #88
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I have nothing much more to add to the discussion, other than refer to this (by now) nearly eight years old article in Luminous Landscape: The Eye and the Camera - Luminous Landscape
01-18-2022, 12:48 PM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by filmmaster Quote
openly doubting the ability of others.
Just my two cents but this just doesn't seem like a nice way to go about things. I joined originally because I found instruction by example to be helpful for my own hobby, not to cowtow or pander to someone because they may or may not have made money doing it. If anything, I have found a deep respect for some of the regular members here and the cumulative centuries of experience. Experience and instruction is how we learn, not some fru fru online certification.

Is photography dead? Nah. It's just not on such a high horse as you think it should be.

[edit] But then again... this is posted in photographic industry and professionals so... yeah. Doesn't seem very professional to me.
01-18-2022, 01:02 PM - 1 Like   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by FozzFoster Quote
I think this is why Pentax will prevail.
It is more that just 'getting the shot that will sell'.
It's about the user experience, the feel, the tactile enjoyment of photography...
one that not only 'get's the shot' but is also pleasurable to use.
...I believe this will make Pentax predominate in camera manufacturing for years to come.
I feel the same way. I am far from professional but the pleasure of taking photo by your own will rather then relying on AI is what I like in photography. And the easiness of changing settings with Pentax make me want to experiment even when I find the perfect settings. This temptation is irresistible. I wont lie that I don't like postprocessing but this is another kind of fun. When I am taking pictures I prefer old fashion "toys" like filters, flash and the tripod, and the hood is always fixed in my All-around lens. The two limiteds are even better since the hood is built in and I just can not forget it
From the story above I just cant imagine how could one not use the hood if he/she owns it. my first kit lens was without a hood and I was so unhappy until I finally bought one - second hand.

Last edited by Yaki; 01-18-2022 at 01:07 PM.
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