[BigMackCam]

Caveat I am not a ML user but I have been kicking around of the idea of going ML and the benefits of going so, For me would be the AF and setting up the EVF for raw shooting.

Setting up the camera EVF for shooting raw would be my main motivator for ML, This would reduce a lot of the guess work about ETTR, and with real time view of the modified histogram in the EVF and the EVF's modified view of the raw file would make things a lot quicker and easier

Overlayed histogram in the EVF is a really useful tool, Ian - but sadly (on my A7 MkII, at least - I can't speak for later models, or those from other brands) it's still based on JPEG... so if you ETTR off that histogram, you're not really maximising the approach... in reality, there's a fair bit of headroom above the apparent limit. But it sure gets you close

[BigMackCam]

Sad but true, most of the wildlife I shoot in the park is so habituated they could care less about the shutter. They've've heard louder and faster. If I was shooting in wilder places, it could be different. I have been asked to turn off the focus confirmation beep, but no complaints about shutter noise.

Ah, then it's not a MILC you need, but a SILC... Speakerless Interchangeable Lens Camera I hear Canon is working on one right now... of course, it uses an entirely new lens mount, so everyone will need new glass... again...

[3by2]

Just trying to get a handle on things without actually going to a store and checking it out myself. Which would be unfair to the store because I'd be very unlikely to be buying. I wasn't disputing what you said, I always expect you have reasons for saying what you do. But in the video by the photographer recently posted, the guy explained when he used his Pentax (stuff that I do) and when he used his mirrorless (stuff that I don't do.) So, That's what I'm trying to get an handle on. I'm wondering if for a guy like me, mirrorless is even worth investigating.

As a complete aside: I don't know about Canada but in the UK some manufacturers offer trial loans for nothing. I've tried Canon, Fuji and currently have an Olympus. It's interesting to trial them. Nothing so far has tempted me from Pentax, although surprisingly, Olympus is pretty good, Fuji disappointing but at least now I have more of a handle on what people are talking about.

[normhead]

Overlayed histogram in the EVF is a really useful tool, Ian - but sadly (on my A7 MkII, at least - I can't speak for later models, or those from other brands) it's still based on JPEG... so if you ETTR off that histogram, you're not really maximising the approach... in reality, there's a fair bit of headroom above the apparent limit. But it sure gets you close

Most of the time I shoot -.7 EV under normal conditions and +.3 in snow, in most cases I'd rather have the clear viewfinder than the histogram overlay. This is one of those features that has me scratching my head. When in doubt Use auto bracketing. I have the histogram overlay on my Lumix, but, it just gets in the way.

[Ian Stuart Forsyth]

so if you ETTR off that histogram, you're not really maximising the approach.

You can go about setting up the how the camera will display the raw data in the EVF. One of the major ones would be to use a UniWB, the second would be to build a custom profile for the camera to use

Here is a custom built profile that use for one of my DSLR



As you can see on the left the profiled used for the camera gives me a more accurate view with how the raw data is being collected when compared to the raw file when viewed with fast raw viewer. The only downside is that this can only be done using the back of my DSLR

[BigMackCam]

When in doubt Use auto bracketing.

The histogram removes the doubt so you don't need to auto-bracket... It's just a different solution for the same problem. Different folks will prefer one or the other...

I have the histogram overlay on my Lumix, but, it just gets in the way.

Yes, it can. But, you know, film SLR users managed to get by OK with big split-prism focusing aids right in the middle of their view. A semi-transparent histogram covering a tiny portion of the frame needn't be so intrusive... but it's a personal taste thing, for sure. Thankfully, you can switch it on and off as needed. When it's useful, use it. When it's not, switch it off. Most MILCs I know allow you to cycle through several information display options so you have nothing, partial, or full info overlayed. It's usually a single button press to cycle them, so not a big deal.

Whenever the possibility of a hybrid viewfinder has reared its head in these forums, one of the things I've often said I'd value is an overlayable histogram. I really like it on my A7II and Hasselblad HV... but that's just me

[normhead]

The histogram removes the doubt so you don't need to auto-bracket... It's just a different solution for the same problem. Different folks will prefer one or the other...



Yes, it can. But, you know, film SLR users managed to get by OK with big split-prism focus areas right in the middle of their view. A semi-transparent histogram covering a tiny portion of the frame needn't be so intrusive... but it's a personal taste thing, for sure. Thankfully, you can switch it on and off as needed. When it's useful, use it. When it's not, switch it off. Most MILCs I know allow you to cycle through several information display options so you have nothing, partial, or full info overlayed. It's usually a single button press to cycle them, so not a big deal.

Whenever the possibility of a hybrid viewfinder has reared its head in these forums, one of the things I've often said I'd value is an overlayable histogram. I really like it on my A7II and Hasselblad HV... but that's just me

Unfortunately on my ZS100 it's the whole centre of the frame. And everything is done through the menus that have names like SF1.. and you have to remember what they do, which I never do.

Most likely the only way I get mirrorless is if a pile of money for a Fuji GFX 100s system somehow falls into my lap (I do have a rich uncle who's been teetering on the brink for a few years now.) The the advantages become overwhelming, because it brings MF down to FF size with 100 MP.

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Last edited by normhead; 01-21-2022 at 03:00 PM.

[biz-engineer]

I don't have on my older mirrorless A7 MkII) is fully-electronic, truly-silent shutter, which strikes me as a "gift" for wildlife photography... but I don't for one moment suggest that's enough to justify switching platforms

Practically I never had wildlife attention caught by mirror/shutter noise on my K1, even photographing bears from a hide. DSLR and lens AF noise sounds like a big deal to the person use the camera because the camera is very close, but the sound drops by at least the square of the distance. For me , the real benefit of silent shutter with minimal rolling shutter effect is the extra sharpness at medium shutter speeds, especially beneficial when having to crop. I've use live view for kingfisher shots , just because the light is low at dawn and dusk, shutter speed was 1/100th s. 1/50th s. , electronic shutter made a big difference in sharpness and ability to crop.

[Rondec]

There is less difference in the real world between MILCs and SLRs. Yes, you can manual focus a little better with MILCs, but these days very few people manual focus. You can use a silent mode complete with electronic shutter -- with the caveat that the electronic shutter can do funny things to moving objects and is probably not as useful for sporting events and such. You also get a little better feel for what your straight out of camera jpegs will look like with your EVF.

At the same time, we have seen enough people jump to MILCs to know that their images don't really change that much. Maybe their keeper percentage goes up some, but those who were good photographers with SLRs continue to be good photographers. Those who were so-so photographers do not magically have a significant improvement in their image quality.

The most important part of image production lies just behind the viewfinder.

[Pål Jensen]

Manual focus? Try the K-3III. Unbeatable for an APS camera. Light too low? Focus in live view....

[gatorguy]

Manual focus? Try the K-3III. Unbeatable for an APS camera. Light too low? Focus in live view....

Spot on sir. I was using Live View last night for a few very intimate photos at a music venue. Remember the old MTV unplugged series? Imagine one with even more artist access and a smaller audience. A wonderful evening!

[BigMackCam]

Manual focus? Try the K-3III. Unbeatable for an APS camera. Light too low? Focus in live view....

I'm sure it works just fine. Differently than a MILC... but fine. Each method will find a different group of fans. It's nice that we have choices...

[mlag]

On Flickr... users per day.
For Canon, the first mirrorless camera on the list is #13. The top 12 are all DSLRs.
In Nikon the top 10 are all DSLRs.

The top selling Sony with 465 average daily users would be in 5th place in Canon, or 4th place in the Nikon world. The reach of mirrorless cameras is vastly over-rated.


That's actual usage, not sales figures. Apparently most of the shooting world has yet to adopt mirrorless.
.
.

You have to take into account that people publishing on flickr (and the likes) are more likely (semi)professionals...liking more DSLR’s. Just like Googles photo server dominantly shows smartphone pics ( but yes one could upload other pics also..). If flicker was a correct representation of the whole market , smartphones would be n⁰ 1, I am afraid.

People buying cheaper, smaller, less complex or advanced cameras might just store on simple things like on their pc , make a few prints or a holiday album online and forget....without storing online.
But their camera’s sales might still outnumber the DSLR’s.

The only correct conclusion is that flicker is not so attractive for smartphone and mirrorless users ...

[Rondec]

You have to take into account that people publishing on flickr (and the likes) are more likely (semi)professionals...liking more DSLR’s. Just like Googles photo server dominantly shows smartphone pics ( but yes one could upload other pics also..). If flicker was a correct representation of the whole market , smartphones would be n⁰ 1, I am afraid.

People buying cheaper, smaller, less complex or advanced cameras might just store on simple things like on their pc , make a few prints or a holiday album online and forget....without storing online.
But their camera’s sales might still outnumber the DSLR’s.

The only correct conclusion is that flicker is not so attractive for smartphone and mirrorless users ...

I think smartphones do lead on flickr.

I think the thing to remember is that there are a lot of folks who do not upgrade their cameras frequently. So there are plenty of folks out there shooting with 6Ds and D800s who are relatively happy still with their cameras and don't need all the bells and whistles that the latest Sony/Nikon/Canon MILCs bring to the table.

I'm sure over time the market will shift in the direction of MILCs, but with how expensive they are, I don't know that there are many people out there who currently are shooting with a Canon Txi or Nikon D5x00 camera who are going to jump to them.

[mlag]

Just checked CIPA site https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/latest-cipa-figures-show-camera-sale...g-back-in-2021

It ends like this :

Oh, and the DSLR isn’t dead!

CIPA’s raw data goes into more detail about camera types, and we learn that DSLRs are not dead sin the water after all. From January to April 2021, some 823,462 DSLRs were shipped worldwide, as opposed to 1,041,845 mirrorless cameras. Mirrorless cameras have certainly taken the lead, but DSLR sales remain stronger than many might have imagined.