On why DSLRs were predominant before Mirrorless ILCs took over

gatorguy · 01-22-2022, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by mlag

Just checked CIPA site https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/latest-cipa-figures-show-camera-sale...g-back-in-2021

It ends like this :

Oh, and the DSLR isn’t dead!

CIPA’s raw data goes into more detail about camera types, and we learn that DSLRs are not dead sin the water after all. From January to April 2021, some 823,462 DSLRs were shipped worldwide, as opposed to 1,041,845 mirrorless cameras. Mirrorless cameras have certainly taken the lead, but DSLR sales remain stronger than many might have imagined.

Gosh, DSLR's still sell after all, making the MILC proponents a bit ahead of themselves. Who knew? Good find.

**Rondec** · 01-22-2022, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by mlag

Just checked CIPA site https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/latest-cipa-figures-show-camera-sale...g-back-in-2021

It ends like this :

Oh, and the DSLR isn’t dead!

CIPA’s raw data goes into more detail about camera types, and we learn that DSLRs are not dead sin the water after all. From January to April 2021, some 823,462 DSLRs were shipped worldwide, as opposed to 1,041,845 mirrorless cameras. Mirrorless cameras have certainly taken the lead, but DSLR sales remain stronger than many might have imagined.

Chances are good that SLR sales will continue to drop. There is less and less R and D going into new cameras. In particular, the low end SLRs from Nikon and Canon were very big sellers. What someone does now if they want a 500 dollar ILC, I have no idea, but it seems clear that none of these companies are interested in selling DSLRs in the long run.

normhead · 01-22-2022, 07:46 PM - **1 Like**

Quote:

I think smartphones do lead on flickr

.

Apple #1
Canon #2
Nikon #3
Sony#4

If Ricoh and Pentax were combined they'd be #10. Google doesn't get in util #9

Flickr: Camera Finder

**ehrwien** · 01-23-2022, 05:45 AM

Originally posted by normhead

Google doesn't get in util #9

I guess it differentiates between manufacturers, not OSes, so with Android phones being split up into Samsung, Google, Sony, LG, Motorola, OnePlus, Oppo, Huawei, Xiaomi, Honor, HTC, ZTE, .... it makes sense that every single one of those will be listed lower than Apple or even some/most camera manufacturers?

normhead · 01-23-2022, 06:07 AM

Originally posted by ehrwien

I guess it differentiates between manufacturers, not OSes, so with Android phones being split up into Samsung, Google, Sony, LG, Motorola, OnePlus, Oppo, Huawei, Xiaomi, Honor, HTC, ZTE, .... it makes sense that every single one of those will be listed lower than Apple or even some/most camera manufacturers?

Ya, there must be some convoluted way we can frame this where Apple's not #1. That goes against some people's sensibilities.

Honestly, in this day and age, I could care less what operating system I'm using. It's not a big factor for anything.

**ehrwien** · 01-23-2022, 06:18 AM

Originally posted by normhead

Ya, there must be some convoluted way we can frame this where Apple's not #1.

It just looked odd how you specifically mentioned Google, where you clearly showed that Apple smartphones are on the top spot. I don't see where I challenged that in any way

normhead · 01-23-2022, 06:39 AM

Originally posted by ehrwien

It just looked odd how you specifically mentioned Google, where you clearly showed that Apple smartphones are on the top spot. I don't see where I challenged that in any way

I didn't clearly show anything, I reported the stats from the web page an independent unbiased source and I specifically mentioned a number of companies. I don't care where things are listed. It's not an issue it's just data. Nothing odd about it, but the objection.

gatorguy · 01-23-2022, 09:52 AM

No need for anything to become personal. Play nice everyone.

**Rondec** · 01-23-2022, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by ehrwien

I guess it differentiates between manufacturers, not OSes, so with Android phones being split up into Samsung, Google, Sony, LG, Motorola, OnePlus, Oppo, Huawei, Xiaomi, Honor, HTC, ZTE, .... it makes sense that every single one of those will be listed lower than Apple or even some/most camera manufacturers?

I think the main point is that smartphones do have a sizable presence on Flickr and Apple is number one. Android (which is an operating system not a brand of phone) probably has more than Apple if you somehow combined all of their phones together.

I think all of this was more of a reply to someone who had claimed that because SLRs were higher than MILCs on Flickr that it wasn't an accurate representation of what people were shooting. I don't know that it is, but certainly most image producing devices are represented in the statistics.

normhead · 01-23-2022, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by Rondec

I think the main point is that smartphones do have a sizable presence on Flickr and Apple is number one. Android (which is an operating system not a brand of phone) probably has more than Apple if you somehow combined all of their phones together.

I think all of this was more of a reply to someone who had claimed that because SLRs were higher than MILCs on Flickr that it wasn't an accurate representation of what people were shooting. I don't know that it is, but certainly most image producing devices are represented in the statistics.

I always say, real information you have is to be considered before fake information from those who basically have nothing. If you don't like my stats, find me something better. But speculation about the meaning of the Flickr stats I refuse to engage in. Stats collected from a site like Flickr, which is not the pro site are about as unbiased as you can get. , Smugmug is the pro site, and people's bogus reasons as to why they don't count are just examples of the bizarre lengths flailing away, because the actual stats don't say what they want to believe. Opinions not backed up by any empirical data aren't worth the electrons they are published with. How can one ever suggest that a site that has their #1 camera company as a phone company be accused of favouritism towards the traditional? That is so counter-intuitve as to suggest mental incompetence.

Sales numbers only reflect new buyers. The number of people buying a new camera every year is very small, compared to the established camera user base. Especially with the huge collapse of ILC sales.

Lord Lucan · 01-24-2022, 03:35 AM

Originally posted by normhead

.
If Ricoh and Pentax were combined they'd be #10.

Flickr: Camera Finder

Even without the Ricoh branded cameras, it would help if Flickr actually grouped the Pentax DSLRs together. Under "Pentax" they only have the K5's and K5O, while putting the K-1's and K-3's under "Ricoh", in with the GR II. Obviously Pentax DSLRs would score higher if grouped properly intead of their usage being being diluted, but I'm not going to work out by how much. If I didn't know better I'd suspect an anti-Pentax conspiracy

Jonathan Mac · 01-24-2022, 09:22 AM - **1 Like**

The DSLR cruised straight through the digital revolution and enjoyed high sales when mobile phones and compact cameras were absolutely pathetic in terms of output quality. Many of those DSLRs still work and are still in the hands of people who use them, and who know how to use them. Mirrorless has come of age in a much-reduced market for large-sensored cameras so will take some time to catch up in terms of what is used on a daily basis, even if they've already surpassed DSLRs in unit sales.

I don't know how much of current DLSR sales is made up of people who simply prefer an optical viewfinder (or other SLR advantages), how much is because there's still lots of stock around that's easy to find, how much is because people are invested in the system and how much is because many people believe that the larger the camera the better it is (yes, they exist).

At some point everything will stabilise and I don't think anyone really knows where that point will be. I think it's safe to say that mirrorless sales will continue to increase and DSLRs to decrease for a time and I think anyone ruling out new DLSR development is getting a bit ahead of themselves at this point in time until the market matures some more and shows what people really want. Camera technology is at a point where expensive upgrades bring less and less improvement in both usage and results so fewer people upgrade, and that goes for all ILCs.

Buy what you like, use what you like. I'm tired of both the "mirrorless is on the rise" deniers and the "mirrorless is the only valid choice in 2022" crowds.

normhead · 01-24-2022, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by Jonathan Mac

Buy what you like, use what you like. I'm tired of both the "mirrorless is on the rise" deniers and the "mirrorless is the only valid choice in 2022" crowds.

Absolutely... it's simply not relevant information. I won't be investigating mirrorless until my camera dies, and I'll investigate what's relevant at the time.

**NZ_Ross** · 01-24-2022, 06:03 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by normhead

I won't be investigating mirrorless until my camera dies, and I'll investigate what's relevant at the time.

Given you are using Pentax camera's there is a fair chance the camera might outlast you, so you may never have to make that investigation

(this is dark Kiwi humour BTW)

normhead · 01-24-2022, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by NZ_Ross

(this is dark Kiwi humour BTW)

Ya well, I've had the same thought myself. But my Scottish grandmother lived to be 95. WIth luck I' have 20 more years. Mind you none of the males have made it to 85.

I prefer to be optimistic.

I wonder how old the oldest guy on the forum who is still shooting is. I wonder if that would be Hienrich.

01-23-2022, 07:00 PM	#70
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by Rondec I think the main point is that smartphones do have a sizable presence on Flickr and Apple is number one. Android (which is an operating system not a brand of phone) probably has more than Apple if you somehow combined all of their phones together. I think all of this was more of a reply to someone who had claimed that because SLRs were higher than MILCs on Flickr that it wasn't an accurate representation of what people were shooting. I don't know that it is, but certainly most image producing devices are represented in the statistics. I always say, real information you have is to be considered before fake information from those who basically have nothing. If you don't like my stats, find me something better. But speculation about the meaning of the Flickr stats I refuse to engage in. Stats collected from a site like Flickr, which is not the pro site are about as unbiased as you can get. , Smugmug is the pro site, and people's bogus reasons as to why they don't count are just examples of the bizarre lengths flailing away, because the actual stats don't say what they want to believe. Opinions not backed up by any empirical data aren't worth the electrons they are published with. How can one ever suggest that a site that has their #1 camera company as a phone company be accused of favouritism towards the traditional? That is so counter-intuitve as to suggest mental incompetence. Sales numbers only reflect new buyers. The number of people buying a new camera every year is very small, compared to the established camera user base. Especially with the huge collapse of ILC sales. Last edited by normhead; 01-23-2022 at 07:06 PM.

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01-22-2022, 12:25 PM	#61
gatorguy Moderator Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Central Florida Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,092	Originally posted by mlag Just checked CIPA site https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/latest-cipa-figures-show-camera-sale...g-back-in-2021 It ends like this : Oh, and the DSLR isn’t dead! CIPA’s raw data goes into more detail about camera types, and we learn that DSLRs are not dead sin the water after all. From January to April 2021, some 823,462 DSLRs were shipped worldwide, as opposed to 1,041,845 mirrorless cameras. Mirrorless cameras have certainly taken the lead, but DSLR sales remain stronger than many might have imagined. Gosh, DSLR's still sell after all, making the MILC proponents a bit ahead of themselves. Who knew? Good find.

01-22-2022, 02:53 PM	#62
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	Originally posted by mlag Just checked CIPA site https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/latest-cipa-figures-show-camera-sale...g-back-in-2021 It ends like this : Oh, and the DSLR isn’t dead! CIPA’s raw data goes into more detail about camera types, and we learn that DSLRs are not dead sin the water after all. From January to April 2021, some 823,462 DSLRs were shipped worldwide, as opposed to 1,041,845 mirrorless cameras. Mirrorless cameras have certainly taken the lead, but DSLR sales remain stronger than many might have imagined. Chances are good that SLR sales will continue to drop. There is less and less R and D going into new cameras. In particular, the low end SLRs from Nikon and Canon were very big sellers. What someone does now if they want a 500 dollar ILC, I have no idea, but it seems clear that none of these companies are interested in selling DSLRs in the long run.

01-22-2022, 07:46 PM - 1 Like	#63
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Quote: I think smartphones do lead on flickr . Apple #1 Canon #2 Nikon #3 Sony#4 If Ricoh and Pentax were combined they'd be #10. Google doesn't get in util #9 Flickr: Camera Finder

01-23-2022, 05:45 AM	#64
ehrwien Site Supporter Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 2,782 Original Poster	Originally posted by normhead Google doesn't get in util #9 I guess it differentiates between manufacturers, not OSes, so with Android phones being split up into Samsung, Google, Sony, LG, Motorola, OnePlus, Oppo, Huawei, Xiaomi, Honor, HTC, ZTE, .... it makes sense that every single one of those will be listed lower than Apple or even some/most camera manufacturers?

01-23-2022, 06:07 AM	#65
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by ehrwien I guess it differentiates between manufacturers, not OSes, so with Android phones being split up into Samsung, Google, Sony, LG, Motorola, OnePlus, Oppo, Huawei, Xiaomi, Honor, HTC, ZTE, .... it makes sense that every single one of those will be listed lower than Apple or even some/most camera manufacturers? Ya, there must be some convoluted way we can frame this where Apple's not #1. That goes against some people's sensibilities. Honestly, in this day and age, I could care less what operating system I'm using. It's not a big factor for anything.

01-23-2022, 06:18 AM	#66
ehrwien Site Supporter Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 2,782 Original Poster	Originally posted by normhead Ya, there must be some convoluted way we can frame this where Apple's not #1. It just looked odd how you specifically mentioned Google, where you clearly showed that Apple smartphones are on the top spot. I don't see where I challenged that in any way

01-23-2022, 06:39 AM	#67
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by ehrwien It just looked odd how you specifically mentioned Google, where you clearly showed that Apple smartphones are on the top spot. I don't see where I challenged that in any way I didn't clearly show anything, I reported the stats from the web page an independent unbiased source and I specifically mentioned a number of companies. I don't care where things are listed. It's not an issue it's just data. Nothing odd about it, but the objection.

01-23-2022, 09:52 AM	#68
gatorguy Moderator Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Central Florida Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,092	No need for anything to become personal. Play nice everyone.

01-23-2022, 12:49 PM	#69
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	Originally posted by ehrwien I guess it differentiates between manufacturers, not OSes, so with Android phones being split up into Samsung, Google, Sony, LG, Motorola, OnePlus, Oppo, Huawei, Xiaomi, Honor, HTC, ZTE, .... it makes sense that every single one of those will be listed lower than Apple or even some/most camera manufacturers? I think the main point is that smartphones do have a sizable presence on Flickr and Apple is number one. Android (which is an operating system not a brand of phone) probably has more than Apple if you somehow combined all of their phones together. I think all of this was more of a reply to someone who had claimed that because SLRs were higher than MILCs on Flickr that it wasn't an accurate representation of what people were shooting. I don't know that it is, but certainly most image producing devices are represented in the statistics.

01-24-2022, 03:35 AM	#71
Lord Lucan Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: South Wales Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,963	Originally posted by normhead . If Ricoh and Pentax were combined they'd be #10. Flickr: Camera Finder Even without the Ricoh branded cameras, it would help if Flickr actually grouped the Pentax DSLRs together. Under "Pentax" they only have the K5's and K5O, while putting the K-1's and K-3's under "Ricoh", in with the GR II. Obviously Pentax DSLRs would score higher if grouped properly intead of their usage being being diluted, but I'm not going to work out by how much. If I didn't know better I'd suspect an anti-Pentax conspiracy

01-24-2022, 09:22 AM - 1 Like	#72
Jonathan Mac Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Madrid, Spain Posts: 10,897	The DSLR cruised straight through the digital revolution and enjoyed high sales when mobile phones and compact cameras were absolutely pathetic in terms of output quality. Many of those DSLRs still work and are still in the hands of people who use them, and who know how to use them. Mirrorless has come of age in a much-reduced market for large-sensored cameras so will take some time to catch up in terms of what is used on a daily basis, even if they've already surpassed DSLRs in unit sales. I don't know how much of current DLSR sales is made up of people who simply prefer an optical viewfinder (or other SLR advantages), how much is because there's still lots of stock around that's easy to find, how much is because people are invested in the system and how much is because many people believe that the larger the camera the better it is (yes, they exist). At some point everything will stabilise and I don't think anyone really knows where that point will be. I think it's safe to say that mirrorless sales will continue to increase and DSLRs to decrease for a time and I think anyone ruling out new DLSR development is getting a bit ahead of themselves at this point in time until the market matures some more and shows what people really want. Camera technology is at a point where expensive upgrades bring less and less improvement in both usage and results so fewer people upgrade, and that goes for all ILCs. Buy what you like, use what you like. I'm tired of both the "mirrorless is on the rise" deniers and the "mirrorless is the only valid choice in 2022" crowds.

01-24-2022, 03:13 PM	#73
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by Jonathan Mac Buy what you like, use what you like. I'm tired of both the "mirrorless is on the rise" deniers and the "mirrorless is the only valid choice in 2022" crowds. Absolutely... it's simply not relevant information. I won't be investigating mirrorless until my camera dies, and I'll investigate what's relevant at the time.

01-24-2022, 06:03 PM - 1 Like	#74
NZ_Ross Kiwi Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Timaru Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,225	Originally posted by normhead I won't be investigating mirrorless until my camera dies, and I'll investigate what's relevant at the time. Given you are using Pentax camera's there is a fair chance the camera might outlast you, so you may never have to make that investigation (this is dark Kiwi humour BTW)

01-24-2022, 07:00 PM	#75
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by NZ_Ross (this is dark Kiwi humour BTW) Ya well, I've had the same thought myself. But my Scottish grandmother lived to be 95. WIth luck I' have 20 more years. Mind you none of the males have made it to 85. I prefer to be optimistic. I wonder how old the oldest guy on the forum who is still shooting is. I wonder if that would be Hienrich.