Smartphone isn't the only to blame.. evidence here

Roadboat24 · 01-25-2022, 06:00 AM

Originally posted by house

That can be rephrased as old gear being good enough. New gear isn't adding the value it tries to charge .

I would agree with this statement, My K3 and K1 can handle any bloody thing I care to wade into.

Fogel70 · 01-25-2022, 06:24 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by biz-engineer

The first thing that comes to mind about why the ILC (new) camera market is getting smaller, is the smartphone villain. But Smartphone is not the only villain in the story, maybe it's also the used camera market growing faster than the new camera market ( BCN , CIPA ).
I search for the revenue of KEH (used cameras) and I found something interesting here: https://ecommercedb.com/en/store/keh.com
Between 2015 and 2020, the revenue of KEH doubled, and it looks like it continues to grow. So, what's being sold used isn't being sold new.

Nor sure where we can find data aggregates for the used camera market. It would be interesting to compare the total sales of used cameras vs new cameras.

I think this is a sign of a matured market, where few users really need the advantage of the latest generation cameras.
So in general, most users can get a better camera by buying used instead of investing the same amount on a new one.

And it is not difficult to find a couple of years old low mileage cameras for half the price (or less) than they sold for new.
That the used market is growing but not sales on new ones may be a sign of people selling off their cameras they do not use anymore and not getting a new camera.

mbukal · 01-25-2022, 08:44 AM

I bought and changed APSC Pentax cameras chronologically, every 2 ~ 3 years and bought new APSC lenses, as I bought a new K1 in 2019 now after 4 years of using it I decided not to change the camera for the next 10 years, unlike the APSC series when I bought new lenses for K1 I bought all ff used lenses , and F and FA and DFA series
(and some of the alternative manufacturers, probably older than the FA era) , I am confident that I will continue to buy used K mount af lenses

texandrews · 01-25-2022, 09:05 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Digitalis

....thankfully that is satire. Considering how social standards and living has changed over the past 3 years satire can be hard to separate from real life at times.

Wait...there's a separation?????

biz-engineer · 01-25-2022, 09:53 AM

Originally posted by Fogel70

And it is not difficult to find a couple of years old low mileage cameras for half the price (or less) than they sold for new.

Upgrading from the used market, selling used for buying used, can significantly reduce the cost of photography. It's just that one has to be comfortable with not having the latest features or latest specs. I'd still be interested to know how much used cameras and used lenses are sold globally , each year , maybe the used market is even larger than the "new" market.

**BigMackCam** · 01-25-2022, 09:56 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by biz-engineer

Upgrading from the used market, selling used for buying used, can significantly reduce the cost of photography. It's just that one has to be comfortable with not having the latest features or latest specs.

If you can become comfortable with that, it's remarkably liberating...

Fogel70 · 01-25-2022, 12:15 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by biz-engineer

Upgrading from the used market, selling used for buying used, can significantly reduce the cost of photography. It's just that one has to be comfortable with not having the latest features or latest specs. I'd still be interested to know how much used cameras and used lenses are sold globally , each year , maybe the used market is even larger than the "new" market.

For me personally I must have bought at least 80% of my photography gear used for the last 10+ years.
It's to the point where I feel more comfortable in buying used gear than new, because on new gear I will be more annoyed if making a dent or scratch on it.
BTW today I picked up my first used gear of this year, a DA 14/2.8 In good condition for approx USD 200 from a shop offering 6 month warranty. When available new it was priced 750-800 USD i Sweden.

**Michail_P** · 01-25-2022, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by Lord Lucan

Reading it, the certificate is meant as a joke, but I expect some will take it seriously.

I'd rather have a certificate that I am an amateur. I have had a couple of encounters with by-standers while taking street photos, especially with my big 6x7. Not that I was taking pictures of them, more the architecture, but they seemed to assume that I was casing the place or was a professional surveying to drill for oil, or build a motorway, or something. I defused those situations by assuring them I was just a hobbyist amateur photographer. I am not particularly good at handling those situations.

At one time when I was in a camera club I suggested we print a club membership card that we could carry to show we were just club hobbyists. The idea of a card was accepted but unfortunately it was designed by a member who wanted the opposite - a professional looking card to talk his way into motor-racing pit areas and such like. I would repeat Digitalis's clip of Captain Picard at this point, but just imagine it instead, to spare the bandwidth

I feel you. Every time people see me taking architectural photos they ask all kinds of things...

**yucatanPentax** · 01-26-2022, 03:46 AM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

I search for the revenue of KEH (used cameras) and I found something interesting here: https://ecommercedb.com/en/store/keh.com
Between 2015 and 2020, the revenue of KEH doubled, and it looks like it continues to grow. So, what's being sold used isn't being sold new.

For some reason, this link doesn't work. Do you have a working link? It says "Page not found."

biz-engineer · 01-26-2022, 05:15 AM

https://ecommercedb.com/en/store/keh.com

gatorguy · 01-26-2022, 05:58 AM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

https://ecommercedb.com/en/store/keh.com

Still getting "Page not found".

biz-engineer · 01-26-2022, 06:03 AM

Originally posted by gatorguy

Still getting "Page not found".

Doesn't matter. It shows used camera sales increase year on year with a steady trend.

gatorguy · 01-26-2022, 06:21 AM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

Doesn't matter. It shows used camera sales increase year on year with a steady trend.

I believe you.

That's not exactly the same as "used cameras are why new cameras aren't selling". KEH has been steadily growing used sales for 40 years so using them as "evidence" doesn't seem very reliable. Isn't it just as likely they're simply very competitive and successful in their market?

normhead · 01-26-2022, 06:46 AM

Originally posted by gatorguy

I believe you.

Quick, sell him a used car owned by a Granny who only drove it on Sundays.

Traditionally I don't get rid of cameras until the shutter is fried. Buying used just means I have to buy again sooner. Lenses on the other hand... my DA 18-135 has been used on my K20D, K-5, and K-3 and it's still going strong. I have many second hand lenses.

biz-engineer · 01-26-2022, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by normhead

Traditionally I don't get rid of cameras until the shutter is fried. Buying used just means I have to buy again sooner. Lenses on the other hand... my DA 18-135 has been used on my K20D, K-5, and K-3 and it's still going strong. I have many second hand lenses.

Diaphragm or AF motor may also die like shutters. I have never use a camera until the shutter stops working. Some people use their cameras and lenses until completely worn-out, but the vast majority don't. I've seen a Sony A7RIV for sale used 4000 shutter count, 2 years old camera, almost new, such camera may well sell to a customer who would otherwise buy it new. Some of the used market takes sales away from the new market.

01-25-2022, 08:44 AM	#18
mbukal Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: zagreb Posts: 668	I bought and changed APSC Pentax cameras chronologically, every 2 ~ 3 years and bought new APSC lenses, as I bought a new K1 in 2019 now after 4 years of using it I decided not to change the camera for the next 10 years, unlike the APSC series when I bought new lenses for K1 I bought all ff used lenses , and F and FA and DFA series (and some of the alternative manufacturers, probably older than the FA era) , I am confident that I will continue to buy used K mount af lenses Last edited by mbukal; 01-25-2022 at 08:51 AM.

01-26-2022, 06:21 AM	#28
gatorguy Moderator Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Central Florida Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,089	Originally posted by biz-engineer Doesn't matter. It shows used camera sales increase year on year with a steady trend. I believe you. That's not exactly the same as "used cameras are why new cameras aren't selling". KEH has been steadily growing used sales for 40 years so using them as "evidence" doesn't seem very reliable. Isn't it just as likely they're simply very competitive and successful in their market? Last edited by gatorguy; 01-26-2022 at 06:58 AM.

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01-25-2022, 06:00 AM	#16
Roadboat24 Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2017 Posts: 486	Originally posted by house That can be rephrased as old gear being good enough. New gear isn't adding the value it tries to charge . I would agree with this statement, My K3 and K1 can handle any bloody thing I care to wade into.

01-25-2022, 06:24 AM - 1 Like	#17
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	Originally posted by biz-engineer The first thing that comes to mind about why the ILC (new) camera market is getting smaller, is the smartphone villain. But Smartphone is not the only villain in the story, maybe it's also the used camera market growing faster than the new camera market ( BCN , CIPA ). I search for the revenue of KEH (used cameras) and I found something interesting here: https://ecommercedb.com/en/store/keh.com Between 2015 and 2020, the revenue of KEH doubled, and it looks like it continues to grow. So, what's being sold used isn't being sold new. Nor sure where we can find data aggregates for the used camera market. It would be interesting to compare the total sales of used cameras vs new cameras. I think this is a sign of a matured market, where few users really need the advantage of the latest generation cameras. So in general, most users can get a better camera by buying used instead of investing the same amount on a new one. And it is not difficult to find a couple of years old low mileage cameras for half the price (or less) than they sold for new. That the used market is growing but not sales on new ones may be a sign of people selling off their cameras they do not use anymore and not getting a new camera.

01-25-2022, 09:05 AM - 1 Like	#19
texandrews Moderator Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Baltimore Photos: Albums Posts: 3,390	Originally posted by Digitalis ....thankfully that is satire. Considering how social standards and living has changed over the past 3 years satire can be hard to separate from real life at times. Wait...there's a separation?????

01-25-2022, 09:53 AM	#20
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,225 Original Poster	Originally posted by Fogel70 And it is not difficult to find a couple of years old low mileage cameras for half the price (or less) than they sold for new. Upgrading from the used market, selling used for buying used, can significantly reduce the cost of photography. It's just that one has to be comfortable with not having the latest features or latest specs. I'd still be interested to know how much used cameras and used lenses are sold globally , each year , maybe the used market is even larger than the "new" market.

01-25-2022, 09:56 AM - 2 Likes	#21
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,645	Originally posted by biz-engineer Upgrading from the used market, selling used for buying used, can significantly reduce the cost of photography. It's just that one has to be comfortable with not having the latest features or latest specs. If you can become comfortable with that, it's remarkably liberating...

01-25-2022, 12:15 PM - 2 Likes	#22
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	Originally posted by biz-engineer Upgrading from the used market, selling used for buying used, can significantly reduce the cost of photography. It's just that one has to be comfortable with not having the latest features or latest specs. I'd still be interested to know how much used cameras and used lenses are sold globally , each year , maybe the used market is even larger than the "new" market. For me personally I must have bought at least 80% of my photography gear used for the last 10+ years. It's to the point where I feel more comfortable in buying used gear than new, because on new gear I will be more annoyed if making a dent or scratch on it. BTW today I picked up my first used gear of this year, a DA 14/2.8 In good condition for approx USD 200 from a shop offering 6 month warranty. When available new it was priced 750-800 USD i Sweden.

01-25-2022, 02:30 PM	#23
Michail_P Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2019 Location: Kalymnos Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,006	Originally posted by Lord Lucan Reading it, the certificate is meant as a joke, but I expect some will take it seriously. I'd rather have a certificate that I am an amateur. I have had a couple of encounters with by-standers while taking street photos, especially with my big 6x7. Not that I was taking pictures of them, more the architecture, but they seemed to assume that I was casing the place or was a professional surveying to drill for oil, or build a motorway, or something. I defused those situations by assuring them I was just a hobbyist amateur photographer. I am not particularly good at handling those situations. At one time when I was in a camera club I suggested we print a club membership card that we could carry to show we were just club hobbyists. The idea of a card was accepted but unfortunately it was designed by a member who wanted the opposite - a professional looking card to talk his way into motor-racing pit areas and such like. I would repeat Digitalis's clip of Captain Picard at this point, but just imagine it instead, to spare the bandwidth I feel you. Every time people see me taking architectural photos they ask all kinds of things...

01-26-2022, 03:46 AM	#24
yucatanPentax Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Dallas / Yucatan Posts: 1,839	Originally posted by biz-engineer I search for the revenue of KEH (used cameras) and I found something interesting here: https://ecommercedb.com/en/store/keh.com Between 2015 and 2020, the revenue of KEH doubled, and it looks like it continues to grow. So, what's being sold used isn't being sold new. For some reason, this link doesn't work. Do you have a working link? It says "Page not found."

01-26-2022, 05:15 AM	#25
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,225 Original Poster	https://ecommercedb.com/en/store/keh.com

01-26-2022, 05:58 AM	#26
gatorguy Moderator Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Central Florida Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,089	Originally posted by biz-engineer https://ecommercedb.com/en/store/keh.com Still getting "Page not found".

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01-26-2022, 06:03 AM	#27
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,225 Original Poster	Originally posted by gatorguy Still getting "Page not found". Doesn't matter. It shows used camera sales increase year on year with a steady trend.

01-26-2022, 06:46 AM	#29
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,450	Originally posted by gatorguy I believe you. Quick, sell him a used car owned by a Granny who only drove it on Sundays. Traditionally I don't get rid of cameras until the shutter is fried. Buying used just means I have to buy again sooner. Lenses on the other hand... my DA 18-135 has been used on my K20D, K-5, and K-3 and it's still going strong. I have many second hand lenses.

01-26-2022, 08:42 AM	#30
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,225 Original Poster	Originally posted by normhead Traditionally I don't get rid of cameras until the shutter is fried. Buying used just means I have to buy again sooner. Lenses on the other hand... my DA 18-135 has been used on my K20D, K-5, and K-3 and it's still going strong. I have many second hand lenses. Diaphragm or AF motor may also die like shutters. I have never use a camera until the shutter stops working. Some people use their cameras and lenses until completely worn-out, but the vast majority don't. I've seen a Sony A7RIV for sale used 4000 shutter count, 2 years old camera, almost new, such camera may well sell to a customer who would otherwise buy it new. Some of the used market takes sales away from the new market.