[gatorguy]

Some of the used market takes sales away from the new market.

That's almost certainly true. There's also some really REALLY good lovingly used cameras being sold at very good prices. Both Canon 5D MkIV and Sony A7III's are commonly available under $1500. Who would have expected that when they bought one?

Personally I'd attribute that to a lagging overall interest in DSLR/MILC's, period. It used to be the only way to get a pretty good quality photo was with an actual camera. Not anymore, and people have their phones with them anyway so one less thing to carry or remember. No camera manufacturer is immune, the numbers are falling. If I were producing cameras I'd find my niche, become the best available source, and cling to it. Spreading yourself thin with feet in both DSLR and mirrorless in a flailing market makes no sense. Commit to one or the other IMHO. In that respect Pentax is smart, very smart, to make it clear they're committed to producing innovative DSLR's and the high-quality lenses to accompany them. Let Canon, Sony, Nikon, and to a lesser extent Fuji and Panasonic, scrap over a mirrorless market that will also fall numbers-wise year over year.

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Last edited by gatorguy; 01-26-2022 at 09:14 AM.

[biz-engineer]

Not anymore, and people have their phones with them anyway so one less thing to carry or remember.

Do phones have 400mm f5.6 lenses? The answer tells about the kind of photographer. I'm convinced the camera market for medium format and professional sport cameras hasn't changed much over the years. The top part of 2011 bubble went to phones, but the phones haven't touch the bedrock of the pro and enthusiast market. However, it's possible that the used camera market is a new playground for a lot of enthusiast photographers.

[gatorguy]

Do phones have 400mm f5.6 lenses? The answer tells about the kind of photographer. I'm convinced the camera market for medium format and professional sport cameras hasn't changed much over the years. The top part of 2011 bubble went to phones, but the phones haven't touch the bedrock of the pro and enthusiast market. However, it's possible that the used camera market is a new playground for a lot of enthusiast photographers.

I don't think there's been a large percentage of the camera buyers in the last 6 years who truly were "experienced professionals". If that's what camera manufacturers are depending on they will fail. Most of the true working professionals I've come to know are still using the camera they bought years ago, and for the most part they are DSLR's. Very good and very capable DSLR's. New lenses are acquired far more often than new cameras, so that's an area where there's bargains to be found too for older mounts.

Personally my needs haven't yet exceeded what my current cameras are capable of delivering, often in spades. That probably applies to the vast majority of us. There's always been pro-camera pretenders, I had one sitting in front of me with a Sony A7III firing off flash photos at a concert over the weekend, but I think the difference now is many of the true enthusiasts moved over to $1000+ smartphones with supposedly professional cameras built-in. Apple has been extremely successful in framing iPhone 13's as professional-grade production-ready imaging devices.

[ThorSanchez]

Do phones have 400mm f5.6 lenses? The answer tells about the kind of photographer.

Yes, it tells you that the vast majority of people are not photographers but people who want to have photographs of their lives.


What percentage of people with ILCs have 400mm f/5.6 lenses? Not many. How many Instamatics or Brownie Boxes or Polaroids had a 400mm lens? I think it's always been true that the vast majority of people wanted a snapshot of their kid graduating from the 8th grade, not a razor-sharp image of a deer running through a field 150m away to print and mount and sell.

Above that there are different levels of enthusiasts, and many or most of them don't want to regularly drop thousands of dollars for incremental gains. Probably 2/3rds of my lenses were bought used simply because of price. As camera makers go up market the people who can't or won't follow will go to the used market for the items at a price point they can afford.

[gatorguy]

Yes, it tells you that the vast majority of people are not photographers but people who want to have photographs of their lives.


What percentage of people with ILCs have 400mm f/5.6 lenses? Not many.

LOL, I just realized I don't have one either. Long-range photos of birds isn't a subject I have much interest in. It's not that I don't like wildlife. I'm just not a tripod/monopod-type guy even if it's cost me several hundred dollars buying ball-heads and travel tripods to realize I wasn't going to use'em no matter how good they were.

[texandrews]

I don't have a 400mm lens either---and never have had one. Currently I have 2 300's, both for my Z, although I have the adapter to use them on my K1mkII. I've used the 150-300 a couple of times to isolate sculpture in a sculpture garden; the other I have never used (it was a great price and I got it as an "insurance" lens). I've known more than a few pros who don't use anything longer than an 85. In my work there's precious little need for anything over short tele (I'll define that as up through 100 for FF), with occasional medium tele (here defined as up through 150/200).


I think those who use long tele to argue against phones are themselves revealing their own biases in photography. Just as those who argue for high performance AF do.

[normhead]

I'm just not a tripod/monopod-type guy even if it's cost me several hundred dollars buying ball-heads and travel tripods to realize I wasn't going to use'em no matter how good they were.

K-3 plus DA 55-300 and 1.4 TC at ƒ/8, handheld (with the aid of IBIS, crouching behind a trailer. Less weight than a D FA 24-70.



And yet, I also like phones....
My step son's iPhone. - PentaxForums.com

These things tend to depend on where you live, and what you have opportunity to photograph. Where I live wildlife is a thing, maybe the only thing. I have no opportunity to photograph urban scenes or do street photography.

I wonder if I still lived in Toronto if I'd own any long glass. The longest I owned when I lived in Toronto was my Sigma 70-300 and I was happy with it. That changed when I got up here.

If you wonder how many own 400 5.6, Everyone with a DA*300 ƒ4 and a TC, and that is a lot of us. Not me of course, my 300 is 2.8, but lots of other people.

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Last edited by normhead; 01-26-2022 at 11:08 AM.

[gatorguy]

K-3 plus DA 55-300 and 1.4 TC at ƒ/8, handheld (with the aid of IBIS, crouching behind a trailer. Less weight than a D FA 24-70.



And yet, I also like phones....
If you wonder how many own 400 5.6, Everyone with a DA*300 ƒ4 and a TC, and that is a lot of us. Not me of course, my 300 is 2.8, but lots of other people.

Oh, well then technically I DO have a 400 5.6. I used it this past weekend AAMOF, but even that doesn't get used as often as I once did. Once upon a time wildlife was about my only subject.

[normhead]

Oh, well then technically I DO have a 400 5.6. I used it this past weekend AAMOF, but even that doesn't get used as often as I once did. Once upon a time wildlife was about my only subject.

Where as I shot almost no wildlife until I retired. When you retire, it's good to learn new things. It keeps your brain flexible.

This last week, we had the above Pileated (he's still out there right now) a big bushy healthy looking fox, and the usual squirrels and feeder creatures (last night we had 13 wild turkeys). Most of what I shoot I either find walking my dogs, or it comes to my yard.

We also plant bushes favourable to hummingbirds, bees wasps and moths. They all need long glass.

Life is easier if your subjects come to your yard.

[turbo_bird]

I'm not a professional photographer, but there are bargains to be had when buying used vs. new cameras. I'm probably not Pentax's target audience, because while I like to buy quality products, I also keep them for a long time. I'd rather buy used high quality gear than new and lower quality for the same price. Camera bodies have come far enough now that I don't ever see myself needing to upgrade from my K1, but I'll probably buy a few more lenses every now and then. Those will probably be mostly used ones as well though.
Kristian

[StiffLegged]

I wouldn’t ever have a 400 f/5.6. It’s just gotta be an f/2.8!!

[Lord Lucan]

Traditionally I don't get rid of cameras until the shutter is fried.

I cannot imagine my ever wearing out a shutter.

Buying used just means I have to buy again sooner.

Financially, that is only a good argument if the price-versus-age graph is a straight line (or above the line price-wise) and reaches zero exactly when the shutter or something else fails. In fact the price trends of used items are nothing like that, they tend to fall exponentially. There is a meme that if you buy a car new, by the time you have driven it to the end of the street it will be worth £5000 less (or some such figure). After a longer time the price declines into the noise level - the prices of most old flash units on Ebay for example get as low as the postage cost. OTOH, some K1000s are selling today more than they cost new 40 years ago, even allowing for inflation, but they are among the exceptions. Buying used photographic kit is more like buying company shares - watch the market and buy low.

But there are some good reasons in favour of buying new. You get the ancilliary things with it like the minor accessories, manual, and guarantee; and the box which helps to re-sell it in the future. Also, if you are a more careful person than average, you don't have to put up with other people's dents and scratches. You can avoid dents and other problems if the item is nearly new or little used anyway (a lot of photo kit is), but you still need to be circumspect and know about what you are buying. You also need patience, which most people lack. I have always bought cars at 2-3 years old (apart from my first two), but I know cars well and have managed to find ones indistinguishable from new, even if it has taken a couple of months of checking on the local market..

[texandrews]

I wouldn’t ever have a 400 f/5.6. It’s just gotta be an f/2.8!!

With a trailer....

[normhead]

With a trailer....

I don't even like to carry my Tamron 300 2.8. I carry it when I'm almost guaranteed an image, not far from my car.

[Thwyllo]

My two cents worth...the demand for "proper cameras" has plummeted with the advent of more capable smartphones. The DSLR sector is dying and will soon be niche, while the bulk of the market for new users is (1) mirrorless because it's frankly more convenient and with a full frame sensor will do 99% of what a Pentax will do, and (2) a burgeoning second hand market as a result of more and more people ditching their gear because their phone is doing more and more of what they need.

There are some outstanding bargains to be had second hand and the supply is only growing. If you want a decent used DSLR or recent mirrorless then this is a golden age frankly, because in future I think new entrants to the hobby will be faced with a much smaller range of much more expensive option.