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03-02-2022, 01:42 PM - 2 Likes   #16
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Very few people might end up making their way to Pentax, but I'd say that at least 98% of Canon & Nikon users will more than likely move on to their respective mirrorless mounts once they reach the point of not having any other choice. Like when it starts getting hard trying to find old CaNikon DSLR gear in decent condition.

This probably won't happen for another +-8 years or so, but you best believe that Canon & Nikon will do their best to convince their DSLR user base that the DSLR is dead & that they need to migrate to their "highly advanced" mirrorless systems. Heck! Canon has just about done that already & Sony has left the DSLR/DSLT building a long time ago. Nikon is getting there too.

So yeah. I don't really see Pentax growing more than what it already is. I actually think that Pentax might level off & decline during the next few years, but don't take my word for it 'cause I ain't no business analyst. Hahaha!

03-02-2022, 04:26 PM - 1 Like   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
The mirrorless fanbois always fail to mention the major disadvantage of EVFs, which is the eyestrain that they cause a significant percentage of users. For some it's a minor discomfort, but for a lot of people, its severe enough to render EVF cameras unusable. This is something that is very unlikely to diminish over time.
Where did you get this info from?
03-02-2022, 04:33 PM - 1 Like   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by KiloHotelphoto Quote
Where did you get this info from?
From here, there are some pretty smart cookies on this forum, and from some random internet searches. I am one of the unlucky ones that find EVFs to be painful, which led me to do a little research of my own.

---------- Post added Mar 2nd, 2022 at 05:36 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by The Squirrel Mafia Quote
Very few people might end up making their way to Pentax, but I'd say that at least 98% of Canon & Nikon users will more than likely move on to their respective mirrorless mounts once they reach the point of not having any other choice. Like when it starts getting hard trying to find old CaNikon DSLR gear in decent condition.

This probably won't happen for another +-8 years or so, but you best believe that Canon & Nikon will do their best to convince their DSLR user base that the DSLR is dead & that they need to migrate to their "highly advanced" mirrorless systems. Heck! Canon has just about done that already & Sony has left the DSLR/DSLT building a long time ago. Nikon is getting there too.

So yeah. I don't really see Pentax growing more than what it already is. I actually think that Pentax might level off & decline during the next few years, but don't take my word for it 'cause I ain't no business analyst. Hahaha!
I'm sure, had the internet existed in 1962, that there would have been tons of people posting in forums that the interchangeable lens rangefinder camera was dead and that Leica had better get with the program or meet its demise.
03-02-2022, 09:07 PM - 3 Likes   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cerebum Quote
I.e. have reservations about Pentax having a glorious resurrection based on other companies ending production of DSLRs whilst still believing Pentax will survive.
You gave a good definition of sceptical, Cerebrum, but what's your definition of 'strawman'?

No one here said anything about a glorious resurrection. Those words are yours.

All camera companies have declined from their 2012 sales and will *not* return to those levels, IMHO.

Canon, who are number one, predicted it would be a fraction of previous figures. Nikon have officially given up on entry level and are pursuing professionals and serious amateurs.

In other words, mitigation of sales falling off the cliff thanks to phones, rather than return to past glories, is what all these companies are struggling about. They will go about it in different ways depending on their starting points.

You'll see Pentax in Japan will be marketing more direct to consumers, saving Japanese customers and them the 30 to 40% markup retailers would take, coming up with custom models like monochrome and astro K-3 IIIs that will likely have some advance ordering/crowd funding to determine interest, and with the insane profits to be made on Japanese real estate, perhaps selling their famous display centre and moving it and repairs out to a more distant suburb.

Ricoh as a whole has innovated to pivot away from office photocopiers into digital services, so all the divisions can be expected to evolve quickly to survive global trends. It's a huge organization, something like fifteen companies and nearly three hundred subsidiaries, IIRC.

The "Other" sector Pentax is in is a tiny part of Ricoh in total, with 1.2% of sales, 47 percent coming from Japan alone. Cameras and lenses will in turn be such a tiny part of that 1.2% 'Other' division that they will have no impact good or bad on the parent company's performance. Pentax and GR products can almost be described as a vanity project for Ricoh.


Last edited by clackers; 03-02-2022 at 09:14 PM.
03-02-2022, 11:21 PM - 1 Like   #20
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@clackers. Guilty as charged the article relates to minor gains. Although in my defence I was exaggerating purely to make a point to someone who was being pernikity about the phrasing in my initial post. An initial post which was a bit more in keeping with the thread tone. I have a bad habit of biting when people, often unnecessarily pull out there size twelves to stomp on minor points.

As for what you said, I couldn't agree more. Amateur photographer frequently reviews phones (as you mentioned in your post). The cameras in the new google pixel are brilliant, so why buy something that only takes pictures one thing I didn't think I would see is a day where many of the cheapest camera options will come from fuji
03-03-2022, 04:05 AM - 1 Like   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by KiloHotelphoto Quote
Where did you get this info from?
I don't think there are stats available on EVF usage and eye strain, but a commonly bandied about number is that 70 percent of Americans experience eye strain due to the use of digital devices.

It isn't surprising when people are staring at phones and computer screens for large portions of their days. It would make sense that EVFs would add to that. Personally, I don't deal well with EVFs and do get headaches and eye sensitivity when using them for any length of time. I can handle laptops and phones with problem, but I guess having a tiny screen that close to my eye does something.

I've always been a lightweight when it comes to stuff like games with a first person perspective -- they typically give me motion sickness, so I guess it is my fault that I can't use these sorts of devices easily.
03-03-2022, 08:00 AM - 1 Like   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I don't think there are stats available on EVF usage and eye strain, but a commonly bandied about number is that 70 percent of Americans experience eye strain due to the use of digital devices.

It isn't surprising when people are staring at phones and computer screens for large portions of their days. It would make sense that EVFs would add to that. Personally, I don't deal well with EVFs and do get headaches and eye sensitivity when using them for any length of time. I can handle laptops and phones with problem, but I guess having a tiny screen that close to my eye does something.

I've always been a lightweight when it comes to stuff like games with a first person perspective -- they typically give me motion sickness, so I guess it is my fault that I can't use these sorts of devices easily.
I don't recall who posted it here, I haven't seen him posting for quite some time. I recall he was from Europe, possibly Germany. The handle Falk comes to mind, but my search result wasn't conclusive, it was, in fact negative. Anyway, he seemed quite knowledgeable on the subject and put the number of users who would have difficulty with EVFs at around one in three, or 30%. Obviously, 30% aren't going to have blinding headaches from an EVF, that is the extreme, but the number of people who will have some level of difficulty, ranging from minor eye strain up to not being able to look into an EVF at all (I know a guy who simply cannot look at them at all without suffering instant debilitating pain) is significant.
Most will either ignore it or figure out a workaround. For me, it's simply a matter of compose the picture with the camera away from my eye and look through the viewfinder for as short a time period as possible to take the picture.
Some will find it uncomfortable enough that they will seek other options for camera type.
And some will never know because they are satisfied with their cell phone camera.

03-03-2022, 10:01 AM - 1 Like   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I don't recall who posted it here, I haven't seen him posting for quite some time. I recall he was from Europe, possibly Germany. The handle Falk comes to mind, but my search result wasn't conclusive, it was, in fact negative. Anyway, he seemed quite knowledgeable on the subject and put the number of users who would have difficulty with EVFs at around one in three, or 30%. Obviously, 30% aren't going to have blinding headaches from an EVF, that is the extreme, but the number of people who will have some level of difficulty, ranging from minor eye strain up to not being able to look into an EVF at all (I know a guy who simply cannot look at them at all without suffering instant debilitating pain) is significant.
Most will either ignore it or figure out a workaround. For me, it's simply a matter of compose the picture with the camera away from my eye and look through the viewfinder for as short a time period as possible to take the picture.
Some will find it uncomfortable enough that they will seek other options for camera type.
And some will never know because they are satisfied with their cell phone camera.
Read it and blink: 70 percent of adults report 'digital eye strain'
03-03-2022, 11:28 AM - 1 Like   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
For me, it's simply a matter of compose the picture with the camera away from my eye and look through the viewfinder for as short a time period as possible to take the picture.
That is how I have always handled photography.
I hate viewing life through a viewfinder.
03-03-2022, 11:56 AM - 1 Like   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
That is how I have always handled photography.
I hate viewing life through a viewfinder.
I spent hours looking at the back of view cameras, and if the K1 is on a tripod I'm probably using live view. I have always tended to frame pictures up pretty quickly with handheld cameras though.
03-04-2022, 05:27 AM   #26
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I wonder what the real percentage is of people who suffer when using an EVF (specifically, not generalising with all digital screens)? Other than a couple of people on this forum mentioning it I have never heard anything and it doesn't seem to be significant enough to worry the camera makers. Of course, most people on this forum have probably never experienced an EVF as they're Pentax users, though a significant portion use other systems, some of them mirrorless.
03-04-2022, 12:01 PM   #27
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I believe people typically just endure, since it can't possibly be their camera fault - which means it's theirs There's a bit of shaming (or self-shaming) going on.
It's in good part the fault of the mirrorless propaganda, exaggerating the good parts while ignoring the bad ones - rather than telling people about the choice they have. And yes, I've been told to go to a doctor, because I'm abnormal and the EVFs are great.
03-05-2022, 05:31 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by pinholecam Quote
Strangely, this has never happened in the history of kameradom.

Minolta > Sony Alpha > SLT > MILC (rewarded as the winner )
Canon FD > Canon EOS > MILC (jumped back up as a viable competitor leaving Nikon in the dust )
Olympus > 4/3 > u4/3 (fans galore, though not enough to make enough, but that is a format war issue and not a dissing user base issue )
I have read, on a few sites, that an American stock holder (or someone on the board of directors or something like that), that this American more or less threw his weight around and "forced" Olympus to abandoned it camera division - obviously, bowing down to the persuit of profit. Is there any truth to this? I know that Japanese companies act in a much different way than what Westerners are use to. For example, Japanese companies belong to conglomerants, which is that Japanese companies group themselves in a group with other Japanese companies - when one company falls on hard times, the other do what they can to prop them up (financially)..... Word has it that the Japanese people at Olympus did not want to "get rid" of their camera division....

---------- Post added 03-05-22 at 05:34 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Cerebum Quote
I am quite sceptical about the future for Pentax. At best we will be a very small niche product and hopefully that will be enough to keep the brand going. Milc announcements always include a range of technological advancements and OVFs are only going to get better. The practicalities of mirrorless the better af and the fact that Pentax advantages (ibis, wr) are making their way into cheaper milc bodies makes mirrorless far easier to promote. Pentax ergonomics and build quality are superb but introducing this relies on the camera world in which Pentax is largely overlooked. I do think the "niche" is big enough, exclusive enough (apsc) and important enough to warrant putting all our eggs in one basket. I also feel the milc market is so saturated with excellent, technologically advanced cameras that Pentax would damage its reputation further by the perception they are constantly lagging behind the companies with massive R&D budgets. I just wish Pentax would cascade improvements down from the K3 iii to the earlier models in the way that Fuji did with the XT4/XT3 by way of a firmware upgrade. I genuinely believe Pentax will live on, I just don't think there are any metioric rises on the horizon
Very good post and I agree with all of it.


Regardless of how small Pentax gets. Even if it's 5 guys in a room at Ricoh, then "whatever it takes" to keep the brand and name alive!

---------- Post added 03-05-22 at 05:40 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
I don't think this necessarily has only to do with what cameras they are selling but also who is selling them and where. Photo stores are mainly gone. Digital cameras are sold in electronic consumer good store along with microwave ovens and TV's, and on-line. Sony and Canon (via their printers) are already present in all those stores. Furthermore, I think the idea of what "pros are using" has lost most of its importance as digital camera are more seen as electronic gadgets.....
It think it's sad that photo stores are largely a thing, or becoming a thing, of the past.
What is more sad, though, I think is the experience we all lose when brick and mortar stores go under. I thought this long before cameras became to decline in sales world wide.

I think I will make a new post on my thoughts about this and go into detail about it in the general su-forum, this evening. If & when I do, I'll come back here and link to it.

I made my post. Here is the fast link to it:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/14-general-talk/439041-brick-mortar-expe...ml#post5527255

Last edited by Michael Piziak; 03-05-2022 at 06:25 PM.
03-06-2022, 03:01 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonathan Mac Quote
I wonder what the real percentage is of people who suffer when using an EVF (specifically, not generalising with all digital screens)? Other than a couple of people on this forum mentioning it I have never heard anything and it doesn't seem to be significant enough to worry the camera makers. Of course, most people on this forum have probably never experienced an EVF as they're Pentax users, though a significant portion use other systems, some of them mirrorless.
I don't have headaches or dizziness, but the experience of looking at a screen where I can basically see the pixels moving around is *thoroughly* unenjoyable. It does feel like I'd get tired of it in minutes.
I'd have to try one of those very high-res EVFs buut I doubt it'd change the overall feeling too much.
03-06-2022, 03:51 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonathan Mac Quote
I wonder what the real percentage is of people who suffer when using an EVF (specifically, not generalising with all digital screens)? Other than a couple of people on this forum mentioning it I have never heard anything and it doesn't seem to be significant enough to worry the camera makers. Of course, most people on this forum have probably never experienced an EVF as they're Pentax users, though a significant portion use other systems, some of them mirrorless.
Up till now it hasn't been an issue because people who identify EVFs as uncomfortable to them simply looked for cameras with OVFs. That was most of what Canon and Nikon made up till a couple of years ago. Certainly there will be used OVF cameras around for quite awhile.

I think the question of this thread is not whether there will be a doubling of Pentaxians, but simply if their user base could be helped if they are the last OVF maker still standing. I think it is likely that they will add some users, but still remain small.

QuoteOriginally posted by Michael Piziak Quote
I have read, on a few sites, that an American stock holder (or someone on the board of directors or something like that), that this American more or less threw his weight around and "forced" Olympus to abandoned it camera division - obviously, bowing down to the persuit of profit. Is there any truth to this? I know that Japanese companies act in a much different way than what Westerners are use to. For example, Japanese companies belong to conglomerants, which is that Japanese companies group themselves in a group with other Japanese companies - when one company falls on hard times, the other do what they can to prop them up (financially)..... Word has it that the Japanese people at Olympus did not want to "get rid" of their camera division....

---------- Post added 03-05-22 at 05:34 PM ----------



Very good post and I agree with all of it.


Regardless of how small Pentax gets. Even if it's 5 guys in a room at Ricoh, then "whatever it takes" to keep the brand and name alive!

---------- Post added 03-05-22 at 05:40 PM ----------



It think it's sad that photo stores are largely a thing, or becoming a thing, of the past.
What is more sad, though, I think is the experience we all lose when brick and mortar stores go under. I thought this long before cameras became to decline in sales world wide.

I think I will make a new post on my thoughts about this and go into detail about it in the general su-forum, this evening. If & when I do, I'll come back here and link to it.

I made my post. Here is the fast link to it:

The Brick & Mortar Experience & It's Closings Affect On Us All - PentaxForums.com
Mistral75 said that Olympus had lost money on the imaging side for the last decade. They were able to sell cameras and lenses, but only for a loss. JIP has trimmed costs a bunch and maybe can make things work, but the divesting of the imaging side was because of consistent losses, not simply because of foreign hedge funds forcing their hand.
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