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05-31-2022, 09:17 AM - 3 Likes   #121
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QuoteOriginally posted by Norberto Quote
"...latest must have new drones, must have new phones, must have..." Just trying to drive the market. I never look at anything that start with "must have" or "this is the best... for you..." As other members said, I prefer to go out and take pictures choosing my composition and adjusting parameters as seen fit. It is more fun.
I am a curmudgeon. I will be 82 yo on Friday coming. I own and use a K3 I bought used when I slipped on the ice and smashed my K10D's top plate. I went digital with the K10D when developing film ended up being Walmart (135 Km West) or mail.

Out camping and fooling around I will take snaps with the iPhone. Why not? It's the 2022 baby Brownie. Sometimes the picnic gear is more important to carry than the photo gear. On hikes I take the K3 + DA* 16-50 with genuine Pentax hand strap in Grandma mode. I may or may not take a backpack with more stuff in it. May 15-18 I met my daughter and her husband near Radium Hot Springs for a lovely weekend of walking and soaking. The DA*16-50 was accompanied by a backpack with swim trunks and towel for the 3 Km walk to the hot springs.

The gear isn't the point for me, it's what I capture.

05-31-2022, 09:42 AM - 2 Likes   #122
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7a1CcwaDtmg

Looking at how camera things evolve over the years, I feel like the digital cameras are going toward "cheap gizmo" type devices with lots of automation (no need to think, AI).
Ten years ago, a DSLR was relatively expensive device but a serious photography device with lots of manual controls, not a toy, not a gadget, the camera were was all about image quality and the skills of the photographer made a huge difference.
Then DPReview got purchased by amazon, they started to review smartphones, then drones, and video, print making almost disappeared, and now still image making is fairly low priority.
Now, what we see pervasive smartphones with their real time computer-graphic running in the background to modify images, dumping of worthless snapshots online, good high-end images are sunk into the noise.

I really don't like the idea of ILC cameras getting more and more automation, joining smartphones and drones gadgets mass produced in China, releasing disposable cameras and lenses every other year with cameras that judge what to modify on a picture.
I open DPReview webpage, they are talking about the latest must have new drones, must have new phones, must have the 12th new revolutionary filter holder in a year, must have video streaming standard on a camera, my reaction is "beurk, disgusting", gives me nausea, it's the direct opposite of getting me excited.

So yeah, it's possible that it's going to be the end of the road for my digital photography.
While it may seem the art of photography is being ruined by ever more gimmicks on camera I am of the opinion that the best camera can not by itself make a person a photographer this is evidenced by the tremendous amount of bad pictures taken with good cameras on the internet A talented photographer cam make great pictures even with a modest camera.
05-31-2022, 09:45 AM   #123
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I am not the least worried about gadgetry that enables those who simply want to record their lives to avoid the technical difficulties of ISO and f-stops. Those of use who try to make more personal images can choose automation or manual equipment according to preference. Decades ago, the technical ability to produce consistently well-exposed and sharp prints was sufficient for people to make a living as professional photographers and I am not convinced that many of those professionals made better composed and expressive pictures than some of todays iPhone photographers. I am worried though about continuing availability of real black and white photo printing papers, and the inattention to the skills and culture of expressive print-making in general, whether via an enlarger or via an inkjet. Even those who use black and white film nowadays scan their negatives digitally and can't reproduce the qualities of a darkroom print on LCD screen - so why do it? Why not just do black and white digitally? Any answers?
05-31-2022, 10:01 AM - 1 Like   #124
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What's the issue. If someone doesn't like modern gear and the way it's developing, let them pick a camera they are comfortable with its' abilities - no one forces anyone to use the 'latest and greatest'. On the other hand, if that someone is really worried that a 5 year old with the 'latest and greatest' will create better images than them - then shame on them, they chose the level the were willing to work to !

05-31-2022, 10:36 AM   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by steve bastiman Quote
What's the issue. If someone doesn't like modern gear and the way it's developing, let them pick a camera they are comfortable with its' abilities - no one forces anyone to use the 'latest and greatest'. On the other hand, if that someone is really worried that a 5 year old with the 'latest and greatest' will create better images than them - then shame on them, they chose the level the were willing to work to !
Well said
05-31-2022, 10:41 AM   #126
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I love all the options that are available. If I don't want to use them, then I don't use them.

I personally love all the options available all around, whether it's software or hardware. I love the amount of third-party lenses and accessories as well. And photographers are taking full advantage of these to create mind-blowing images. I believe that in many respects, we are in a Golden Age of photography.
05-31-2022, 10:47 AM   #127
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sakura Quote
You give the latest camera to a 3 year old kid, and it makes the same pictures as any professional photographer.

But it makes you wonder, who is making the pictures, the person holding the camera, or the factory who developed the software, making it able to focusing on the eye of -lets say- a bird and following the eye wherever it goes. The only thing the person holding the camera has to do is point the camera more or less in the direction of that bird.

I refuse for ever to use such a camera (if you even can call it a camera). When i make a picture, i want to be able to say that i made that picture, and not the software developers.
No a three year old will not take as good of an image as a professional by virtue of equipment .

05-31-2022, 10:52 AM   #128
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7a1CcwaDtmg

Looking at how camera things evolve over the years, I feel like the digital cameras are going toward "cheap gizmo" type devices with lots of automation (no need to think, AI).
Ten years ago, a DSLR was relatively expensive device but a serious photography device with lots of manual controls, not a toy, not a gadget, the camera were was all about image quality and the skills of the photographer made a huge difference.
Then DPReview got purchased by amazon, they started to review smartphones, then drones, and video, print making almost disappeared, and now still image making is fairly low priority.
Now, what we see pervasive smartphones with their real time computer-graphic running in the background to modify images, dumping of worthless snapshots online, good high-end images are sunk into the noise.

I really don't like the idea of ILC cameras getting more and more automation, joining smartphones and drones gadgets mass produced in China, releasing disposable cameras and lenses every other year with cameras that judge what to modify on a picture.
I open DPReview webpage, they are talking about the latest must have new drones, must have new phones, must have the 12th new revolutionary filter holder in a year, must have video streaming standard on a camera, my reaction is "beurk, disgusting", gives me nausea, it's the direct opposite of getting me excited.

So yeah, it's possible that it's going to be the end of the road for my digital photography.
My photography has improved tremendously thanks to good inkjet printer (Canon Pro 10) and excellent DSLR (starting with K20D).

My images are my own, not calendar stuff.

I agree with robgski.
05-31-2022, 11:24 AM - 1 Like   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote

Looking at how camera things evolve over the years, I feel like the digital cameras are going toward "cheap gizmo" type devices with lots of automation (no need to think, AI).
Ten years ago, a DSLR was relatively expensive device but a serious photography device with lots of manual controls, not a toy, not a gadget, the camera were was all about image quality and the skills of the photographer made a huge difference.
<snip>

So yeah, it's possible that it's going to be the end of the road for my digital photography.
Though I often feel that same way about many things I can't help yanking your chain.

D*$# horseless carriages are going to replace the horse and put the buggy whip makers out of business.
05-31-2022, 11:25 AM - 1 Like   #130
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Obsolescence

I totally disagree with what I hear here.

Yes, of course, people taking their own pictures with their Iphone or other cellular have a very negative impact on professional activity.
Nevertheless this is, in my opinion, just the result of progress. But if you look closely to what happened with the sound...

Bakelite records, then vinyl, then tape, then HQ disc, mp3, a.s.o. There is absolutely NO DOUBT about this: if you listen to digital, then numeric music you hear the difference.
In the same idea, if you look at argentic pictures and numeric ones, you see the difference. And taking picture with an Iphone or an "obsolete" Pentax, Nikon, Canon, Leica, you name it, you will catch what is industrial and what is artisanal. An there will be customers of artisanal work FOR EVER. Because it is pure, genuine art.

Perfection is boring, and all I see on tiktok , these perfect photoshopped pictures, will die slowly. Just imagine what Kardachian will look like in twenty years without photoshop!
People have to understand that there is no perfection without scratch. And old Ladies may be fantastic models for pictures with their wrikles. THis does not depend on your camera, but on your talent.

So sad, Tony Northrup, that you feel obsolete. YOU ARE NOT, and have to be sure of that.
05-31-2022, 12:00 PM - 1 Like   #131
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This at first, made me sad to see. But as I read further and gave it some thought, I realized that yes, the world is changing, always-every day, a little more, but that doesn't need to be a scary or sad thing. It just makes those who hold on to the things they love from time, even more unique and special!

I recently finished rebuilding a 1989 P3n with a zoom/macro lens, and when I took that first film exposure in 14 years (the last time being in high school on a 1930s yashika wide format my photography teacher was loaning me, a REAL TREAT!) , The dopamine rush was too real! It brought back so many memories of hanging out with friends at the parks/skate bowl, and taking some really one of kind photos In black and white, at a really low ISO, of some really interesting reflections and graphitti, metal shine and shadows/leaves from the trees.

Since then, I've run a couple more rolls of film through it (about a month now) and also my Father bestowed me with a wonderful gift of his Uncle's Pentax/Honeywell spotmatic 2, with a wide angle lens, that he took with him all through the Mediterranean when he was young as a backpacker through hostels and stuff in the 60s/70s. So now I own one camera with intense sentimental family value to me, and one with sentimental value for the fact that I brought it back to life, from an ensured trip to the dump (not a single blemish on it!)

The digital world was the reason I fell out of love with photography after highschool, 100%. The tech race in the late 90s and 00s was just pointless to follow, as good gear was prohibitively expensive, and everything else was sub-par at best.

Now jump to modern tech, and it's a pretty even playing field. However, I rarely see anyone using their DSLR for anything other than landscapes and family portraits during vacations, and I really wonder if they realize that tool is meant for so much more, or if it's more of a status symbol. (Especially when something like an elf or cannon a10/a70 or other point and shoot can accomplish what they're aiming to do/doing for 1/10th the retail price)

Maybe one day I will get into DSLR, but only once I have a firm grasp on the manual controls of my film cameras again, and only as a way to take many many photos of a subject to achieve best results in the case of a paid shoot or specific art project I'm working on. But until that time comes, I REALLY love and enjoy working with film, the dedication it takes to decide on a subject, and making sure everything is correct light/shutter/iso/aperture wise, before taking the shot. It feels so much more intentional with film, as the cost of each shot, and development is always looming 😅 LOL. In the same way I prefer having restrictions to my music production, to promote creativity, I feel like the restrictions and costs of film also promote me to be more creative and diverse with my subject choices.

Thank you for sharing this post for digestion, and I hope my reply didn't trigger anyone, I mean it all with love, and only as my own opinions.

Peace and love to all and happy clicking!
05-31-2022, 01:11 PM - 3 Likes   #132
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QuoteOriginally posted by TrueLens Quote
This at first, made me sad to see. But as I read further and gave it some thought, I realized that yes, the world is changing, always-every day, a little more, but that doesn't need to be a scary or sad thing. It just makes those who hold on to the things they love from time, even more unique and special!

I recently finished rebuilding a 1989 P3n with a zoom/macro lens, and when I took that first film exposure in 14 years (the last time being in high school on a 1930s yashika wide format my photography teacher was loaning me, a REAL TREAT!) , The dopamine rush was too real! It brought back so many memories of hanging out with friends at the parks/skate bowl, and taking some really one of kind photos In black and white, at a really low ISO, of some really interesting reflections and graphitti, metal shine and shadows/leaves from the trees.

Since then, I've run a couple more rolls of film through it (about a month now) and also my Father bestowed me with a wonderful gift of his Uncle's Pentax/Honeywell spotmatic 2, with a wide angle lens, that he took with him all through the Mediterranean when he was young as a backpacker through hostels and stuff in the 60s/70s. So now I own one camera with intense sentimental family value to me, and one with sentimental value for the fact that I brought it back to life, from an ensured trip to the dump (not a single blemish on it!)

The digital world was the reason I fell out of love with photography after highschool, 100%. The tech race in the late 90s and 00s was just pointless to follow, as good gear was prohibitively expensive, and everything else was sub-par at best.

Now jump to modern tech, and it's a pretty even playing field. However, I rarely see anyone using their DSLR for anything other than landscapes and family portraits during vacations, and I really wonder if they realize that tool is meant for so much more, or if it's more of a status symbol. (Especially when something like an elf or cannon a10/a70 or other point and shoot can accomplish what they're aiming to do/doing for 1/10th the retail price)

Maybe one day I will get into DSLR, but only once I have a firm grasp on the manual controls of my film cameras again, and only as a way to take many many photos of a subject to achieve best results in the case of a paid shoot or specific art project I'm working on. But until that time comes, I REALLY love and enjoy working with film, the dedication it takes to decide on a subject, and making sure everything is correct light/shutter/iso/aperture wise, before taking the shot. It feels so much more intentional with film, as the cost of each shot, and development is always looming �� LOL. In the same way I prefer having restrictions to my music production, to promote creativity, I feel like the restrictions and costs of film also promote me to be more creative and diverse with my subject choices.

Thank you for sharing this post for digestion, and I hope my reply didn't trigger anyone, I mean it all with love, and only as my own opinions.

Peace and love to all and happy clicking!
What a nice post. Thanks for sharing, and so diplomatically too Oh, and congrats on re-building the P3n, and especially on receiving your family-owned Spotmatic 2. Awesome

What your post demonstrates - to me, at least - isn't that film is better than digital (because that's subjective), but rather that everyone needs to find their own "happy place" when it comes to photography. There's no right and wrong, no better and worse - at least, not when its applied to photography as a whole. It's very personal. There are so many artistic and technical disciplines within this hobby of ours, and finding one's own niche is what matters... so, too, accepting that this niche may - and most probably will - change over time, perhaps numerous times. For me, I started getting into "real" photography with digital equipment, and only started dabbling with film and home developing / digitising late last year. I absolutely love film - but I like digital, too... They're quite different, and I find both attractive for different reasons. I do know that whatever equipment I have with me, and whatever I should own now or end up with in future for whatever reasons - be it digital, film, point-and-shoot, interchangeable lens, any format - so long as it takes photographs I'll make the most of enjoying and seeing what I can do with it, regardless of what everyone else is up to

Last edited by BigMackCam; 05-31-2022 at 08:31 PM.
05-31-2022, 03:04 PM - 2 Likes   #133
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QuoteOriginally posted by TrueLens Quote
This at first, made me sad to see. But as I read further and gave it some thought, I realized that yes, the world is changing, always-every day, a little more, but that doesn't need to be a scary or sad thing.
Yes, the world is changing, day by day.
It is not good or bad; it is just ‘a thing’, and my over fifty years of photography show it.
I make no effort to be artistic. My photography just shows things as they really are,
and that truth changes regularly …… and I will continue to photograph that truth as long as I am able.
This year I plan to “rephotograph” some scenes and show what has changed and what has not.
05-31-2022, 05:48 PM - 2 Likes   #134
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I've not waded through all nine pages of comments here, but did review a few and here are my views/thoughts. I started into photography with a Kodak instamatic and the a movie camera . Film was the medium then. he movie camera broke and I took up a 35mm SLR. That was nicer and I loved it, a totally manual camera that only used a battery to operate the light meter. Nearly 40 years later I made the switch to digital and tried program or auto mode for a while. I read and heard about RAW files and manual mode and photoshop. I now shoot RAW and use Photoshop Elements in much the same way film photographers used adjustments in the dark room to make things look "natural" for the photographer. I will change a few things a little but only to give it what I recall seeing when I took the photo. Yes I've done some compositing but only to use a consistent background or to maybe give a little more color or drama to the pic. I do not think I have used auto, program, or any other automatic in camera adjustment, except maybe a few jpg images once in awhile, for the past decade. Also, I seldom take any videos, other than with my GoPro knock off attached to my motorcycle.

I can only hope and pray that there will be a sufficient number of other photographers that feel and believe similar to me so we will not be saying good-bye to real (not AI) photography. I also am not really impressed with the MILC cameras, I also gave up P&S cameras a long time ago.

These are personal thoughts, feelings and beliefs. If you do not agree with them, that's OK, I am willing to hear other ideas. Thank you for reading.
05-31-2022, 06:22 PM - 1 Like   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by rpjallan Quote
I really donít get topics like this. You donít have to buy stuff you donít want/need. All this stuff is market driven. If it wasnít, none of these new cameras etc. would sell. The world doesnít stand still. I donít know how you can blame DPReview for any of this! 😳

I have just been on a topic about LX & MXís predominately. No one is making anyone buy a new, do everything cameraÖ
Totally agree. If you think all photography is looking the same (which I disagree with), there's a lot of room to make your own style, so go for it.

Regarding the proliferation of smartphone cameras, the average consumer has always gone for the point-and-shoot, that's nothing new. Smartphones have gobbled up the cheap end of the camera market, leaving mid and high level DSLR, and some mirrorless, but the cheap mirrorless I had (very portable) is no longer sold.

DSLR cameras are definitely not automating things to death. Sure, you can put it on auto and forget it if you want, but everything is available if you want it. Manual focus at the flip of a switch. When I got my K-70 last year I read through the whole Bourque manual and the user manual, I was just amazed at how many features and controls are available, so much more than the old days of my Canon AE-1. You easily have 10x the controls available today compared to what most of us grew up on. Try to think of any other device you can buy that lets you control things to that level of detail. Any other device. I'm waiting.
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