[Rondec]

You're right, but we're talking about the top tier and newest camera Pentax sells and a pretty expensive 50mm lens, we should hope to see these kind of improvements on every camera and lenses in the future

I don't know about that. It seems like most camera brands reserve the fastest motors and best focusing algorithms for their more expensive gear. Why Pentax should be different, I'm not sure.

Everyone wants DFA *50 plus K-3 III performance for K-70 plus DA 50 f1.8 prices. That would be nice from a buyers standpoint, but it would be a disaster for Pentax from a financial standpoint.

[biz-engineer]

No one is going to pay high dollar for a poorly specified, uncomfortable camera to use, but if people enjoy using the camera and getting high quality images from it, they will be willing to pay for it, even if it doesn't have the highest end video out there or a million frames per second frame rate.

Sometimes it's just gear lust, having a nice personality willing to help Pentax by buying their new products even when we don't have a use for it, or simply because we already have some K mount lenses. If I didn't already have K mount FF lenses, I would never have bought a Pentax K1, I would have bought a D850 instead because the performance is clearly better , lens choice and third party support much higher.

[reh321]

I don't know about that. It seems like most camera brands reserve the fastest motors and best focusing algorithms for their more expensive gear. Why Pentax should be different, I'm not sure.

Everyone wants DFA *50 plus K-3 III performance for K-70 plus DA 50 f1.8 prices. That would be nice from a buyers standpoint, but it would be a disaster for Pentax from a financial standpoint.

“Everyone”-1.
I would hate to lug a DFA *50 around.

Even if I got a K-90, I would use it mostly with something like a lens at 28mm focal length; I do already have a 20-40mm Ltd.
I would use a K-1 with 50mm; I already have several 50mm lenses, but I’m unlikely to get a K-1.

You have the right picture for me, but the wrong details.

When Adam was giving away K-1 camera bodies {summer 2018?}, I worked to bring the post total up, but at first I didn’t enter the drawing, because I was unwilling purchase a bunch of lenses. I did enter when Mark ii won, because I had decided I would retire my K-30 and use those lenses. I purchased a KP when the price went down, figuring it would be my last body purchase, but I have been frustrated with it’s focusing, and have said here that I would purchase a K-90 if it had the K-3iii’s focusing for $1000 {or less}.

[ZombieArmy]

Why can't I, with a full kit of Pentax gear, recommend Pentax to a new photographer? Because I can't feel that confident that Pentax will be offering much in 5 years if they are, indeed, still in business. I think a person staring out should start out with equipment from a dynamic company that is sure to be around in the future.

I have no problems recommending Pentax because even if the company vanished tomorrow there's plenty of back catalog to keep me shooting for a long long time.

I started using Pentax in 2014, much later than most people here I'd assume. I've had no issues growing as a photographer and I've never worried about the longevity of the company.

[gatorguy]

Sometimes it's just gear lust, having a nice personality willing to help Pentax by buying their new products even when we don't have a use for it, or simply because we already have some K mount lenses. If I didn't already have K mount FF lenses, I would never have bought a Pentax K1, I would have bought a D850 instead because the performance is clearly better , lens choice and third party support much higher.

"Clearly better" depends...
Don't you primarily shoot landscapes with your full-frame camera? For that the K1 was probably the better choice, and IMO still is, particularly when the D850 was launched nearing twice the price of the K1. Of course the days of great but inexpensive cameras have probably passed. The D850 is a little under $3000 now, and used bodies abound since the news of Nikon DSLR abandonment. It might be the right time for you to reconsider and get one if you need the faster AF and burst rates, obviously features more useful for things other than landscape photography. It's still a really nice all-around camera as a one-size fits all. But dollar for dollar I believe the K1 remains the best full-frame landscape camera in the market even 5 years later.

[AggieDad]

"Gee Mr. Mentor, I really want to replace my iPhone with a 'real' camera and get involved in photography. What do you recommend?"

"Well Young Beginner, I think the best camera system for you is Pentax. All the other companies have moved on to some crazy mirrorless system that uses a little TV screen in the viewfinder. Pentax uses the good old tried-and-true prism and mirror system that's been around since the mid-20th century. Like a manual transmission in your car, you know it just works."

"And lenses! It's important to have lots of lenses to buy. With Pentax, you can buy some modern, up-to-date, lenses with motors right inside them and special Pentax screw-drive lenses that use a motor that is in the camera (the other companies don't have this option). These screw-drive lenses have a feature of a little noise when they are focusing, so you know what is happening. Also you can buy vintage lenses for Pentax cameras. These are lenses that you can focus yourself by twisting a ring on the lens. And if you want to feel completely at one with your camera, you can get a vintage lens that you not only focus yourself, but also adjust the aperture right on the lens!"

"Another neat feature with Pentax is you don't have to worry about your camera being replaced by a new model every three years. Six or eight years, maybe. But not three or four. Yes Young Beginner, I think Pentax is the right choice for you."

[gatorguy]

"Gee Mr. Mentor, I really want to replace my iPhone with a 'real' camera and get involved in photography. What do you recommend?"

I'm starting to wonder if we camera users are the last of the dinosaurs. I wish asking for recommendations was still a common question. More likely is "why are you carrying around all that big camera stuff when my iPhone is just as good?".

Until you can make a convincing argument to them for spending a few $Thousand dollars on a camera and lenses and bags and speedlights and whatever there is no mirrorless or DSLR that makes sense to recommend.

As it stands today I think it's not new photographers but the existing ones who will make up the market going forward. For the next 3-10 years we will have 4 companies all fighting over a declining prosumer market to sell mirrorless cameras into, and all of them with very similar products, similar features, and similar performance to each outside of some details. We will have one innovator selling OVF DSLR 's which offer a different experience. Pentax will do fine IMO.

---

Last edited by gatorguy; 07-22-2022 at 07:49 AM.

[reh321]

I'm starting to wonder if we camera users are the last of the dinosaurs. I wish asking for recommendations was still a common question. More likely is "why are you carrying around all that big camera stuff when my iPhone is just as good?".

Until you can make a convincing argument to them for spending a few $Thousand dollars on a camera and lenses and bags and speedlights and whatever there is no mirrorless or DSLR that makes sense to recommend.

My wife did comment once, when changing planes at Denver, that the mountains were beautiful, but she knew her phone was inadequate to capture the sight …. but that was before the latest iPhones with their three prime lenses. She used to travel with my small camera …. but that was before all-present iPhones. In order to compete for the attention of someone like her, you would need a small camera that she would carry for other purposes, and that isn’t going to happen. We are talking about someone who wants a real camera - they themselves will decide about the bags, speedlites, etc over time {I myself have carried only a shoulder bag and no extra light for years}.

[The Squirrel Mafia]

I'm starting to wonder if we camera users are the last of the dinosaurs. I wish asking for recommendations was still a common question. More likely is "why are you carrying around all that big camera stuff when my iPhone is just as good?".

Until you can make a convincing argument to them for spending a few $Thousand dollars on a camera and lenses and bags and speedlights and whatever there is no mirrorless or DSLR that makes sense to recommend.

As it stands today I think it's not new photographers but the existing ones who will make up the market going forward. We will have 4 companies (5 or 6 temporarily) all fighting over a declining market to sell mirrorless cameras and all very similar in features and performance to each other except in details. We will have one innovator selling OVF DSLR 's which offer a different experience. Pentax will do fine IMO.

This.

Everyone that I know is perfectly happy with the photos & videos that they get out of their smartphones. A lot of them don't care about ultimate image & video quality. It's the simplicity & convenience of it all. You can share instantly & you always have those photos & videos with you.

Very few have asked me about cameras & once I tell them what's involved & how much it costs, they pretty much forget about it. Having to use a PC to at least "download" the out of camera jpegs from the SD card & the cost of the gear pretty much drives them away. I don't even mention converting RAW files to images 'cause that would almost blow their minds.

Smartphone: 1
MILC/DSLR: 0

Hahaha!

[Wheatfield]

The real question is, “Can you, in good conscious, recommend Pentax to a new (entry level) buyer?”

Since in most cases the first SLR (or changeable lens) camera pretty much determines the kit a person will stay with throughout most of their time in the hobby, I just would not feel comfortable recommending Pentax at this time. Perhaps if they demonstrate some marketing effort, grow their share, and regain a semblance of a market presence, I would do so. But at this time I think I would be leading someone down the garden path.

There is no "entry level" buyer. That person is sticking with their cell phone. There is no advantage in going after a market segment that has withered on the vine due to disruptive market forces. Also, with DSLRs, the entry level user has changed brands about as often as they change their underwear.
Recommending a person away from a particular brand simply because it doesn't match one's preconceived notion of what a business model should be becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.
The problem with the thought that for Pentax to survive it has to grow it's market share is that it is a false argument based on an outdated notion that has been foisted on us by western economists that have more interest in the evil that is "shareholder value" than the health of a company.
Look where increasing market share got Nikon and Canon. Closed factories, thousands of people laid off, and those companies taking desperate measures just to stay afloat.
This is the ultimate end result of trying to increase market share, and it is based on the very flawed western capitalist economic theory of grow or die, that enriching the shareholder is the ultimate aim of business at the expense of the consumer, or even the people who are creating that shareholder value.

Again, I suspect the wonks at Ricoh no a whole bunch more about how to have a successful business model with what is in reality, little more than someone's hobby at head office.
Stay small and sell enough to get a reasonable ROI. That is how to survive as a small player, and frankly, there isn't a snowballs chance in hell of Pentax going back to the majors. That ship sailed in 1988.

Don't expect another "entry level" camera. The only people who don't know that ship has sailed are wannabe experts on the internet. The camera market is moving upscale to give itself plenty of separation between it and cell phones, and is hoping cell phones won't catch up for a while.

The K3III should be proof enough of that.

Expect a K1III to be an upsized version of the K3III. Expect it no sooner than 2024.

Expect any new lenses that come out to be fly by wire AF. Everything new they have released in the past few years has been that type of AF. Don't expect the present LTD lenses to get the PLM treatment. It's not worth Ricoh's time to do it.
Expect most new lenses to come out to be * lenses and to be both best in class and expensive.

Don't expect Pentax to suddenly shift over to mirrorless cameras. They know that would be suicide.

Pentax failed when they were the cheap and cheerful brand in a market that actually had a place for cheap and cheerful products. The market no longer has a place for cheap and cheerful. Those days are gone, that market segment no longer exists.

There is a place in the market for the SLR. There is a significant percentage of the population who find the EVF to be a thing of discomfort or outright pain. That person will never seriously entertain buying a mirrorless camera. That person will look for an alternative that doesn't feel like someone stuck a nail into their eye every time they lift the camera to it.
That person will look to Pentax as the only viable brand, exactly the same way the rangefinder customer looked to Leica through the SLR dominated 1960s to early 2000s.
Leica survived quite nicely by being out of step with the times, sticking with what they knew how to do (their attempts at SLRs were never taken seriously) and selling low volume very high quality and very expensive cameras. It's a successful business model in spite of the go big or go home narrative that has killed so many companies over the years.
Pentax will also survive quite nicely as an SLR company.

The question I have is if someone wants an SLR why would anyone suggest buying one from Canon or Nikon?
Those companies have already indicated they are getting out of the market. Those companies will abandon their SLR user base as quickly as they think they can get away with it. Within a few year, no new bodies at all, those users will be stuck scouring the used market and playing Russian Roulette with their money. Within a few years, no new lenses, see above for how to get an SLR lens from Nikon or Canon within the next half decade.

Repairs in five years to keep a camera that can't be replaced going? Forget it, parts aren't available, here's a hundred dollars towards a mirrorless camera.
That's part of how Nikon and Canon will go after market share. They will slowly but surely force recalcitrant users into the new system whether they want to go there or not. That will be the price the consumer pays for staying with those brands.
Think they won't do it? Check your history of the support Canon gave their legacy FD users 5 years after the EOS cameras hit the market. Support was non existent.

[reh321]

My Dad captured events and scenery important to the family - dismissively called “snapshots” here - with a Kodak box camera, then got a 35mm rangefinder camera around 1960, which he found to be frustrating within ten years. My Mom then got a nice 110 camera. When I was unable to attend my sister’s wedding {I was in Venezuela}, she expressed disappointment, then photographed the event herself {my sister, then being a ‘flower child’, hadn’t bothered to retain a pro photographer}. When grandchildren started coming around 1980, she purchased a Canon “AE-1 Program” and received instruction at the local camera store; by the early 2000’s she had a small digital camera. When she died in 2018, I inherited both the 110 camera and the Canon kit {I tossed the digital camera because the AAA batteries had leaked all over it}.

I have continued the family tradition of photographing things of interest - although I will look at all perspectives if aI have time - of what I describe as “today, before tomorrow comes, and everything changes”. I believe there was a time when people would get SLRs for the quality - but now they get all the quality -{their eyes can see} with smart phones.

[reh321]

There is no "entry level" buyer. That person is sticking with their cell phone. There is no advantage in going after a market segment that has withered on the vine due to disruptive market forces. Also, with DSLRs, the entry level user has changed brands about as often as they change their underwear.
…. Don't expect another "entry level" camera. The only people who don't know that ship has sailed are wannabe experts on the internet. The camera market is moving upscale to give itself plenty of separation between it and cell phones, and is hoping cell phones won't catch up for a while.

There is a place for a camera ‘below’ the flagship camera.

Don’t expect a person’s first purchase to be a new or used camera like the K-1 or K-3, and some of us will never go to that level. A K-70 is fine for some of us - if Pentax doesn’t offer it, Canon, Nikon, or Sony will - and don’t expect a person to change lens mounts once s/he has purchased a few.

[biz-engineer]

"Clearly better" depends...

Doesn't depend. D850 is better. First, it offer slightly more resolution and the sensor is dual gain BSI, less noise at high ISO without low pass filter (=Pentax accelerator chip in the K1 II). Second, 145 AF points and 3D tracking, and up to 9 FPS with grip (4.4 FPS for K1). Third, more CIPA shots on one battery charge. Fourth, D850 cost more than Pentax K1, but you can easily save more than the difference because Tamron lenses are all cheaper than the Pentax rebaged ones. Fifth, auto-calibration lenses for AF. Sixth, you can even have all the primes you want from Tamron, Sigma etc. D850 is a solid DSLR choice. Strange, when I read your posts, they don't seem to be fully informed.

---------- Post added 22-07-22 at 18:43 ----------

The real question is, “Can you, in good conscious, recommend Pentax to a new (entry level) buyer?”

You could depending on the relationship you have with that person, or if you have the assurance that Pentax cameras will still be supported in coming years. The reason why Pentax is not recommended here, is simply because Pentax is not sold by any camera shop here, none of them will recommend Pentax, no matter what Pentax products. When I asked for a DFA21, the young lady working in the camera shop didn't know what Pentax is, she went to ask her boss, and the boss said that they don't sell Pentax anymore. I asked if I can order the DFA21, and the boss said "no, you have search see if you can order it online".

[gatorguy]

Doesn't depend. D850 is better. First, it offer slightly more resolution. Second, more AF points and 3D tracking. Third, more CIPA shots on one battery charge. Fourth, D850 cost more than Pentax K1, but you can easily save more than the difference because Tamron lenses are all cheaper than the Pentax rebaged ones. Fifth, auto-calibration lenses for AF. Sixth, you can even have all the primes you want from Tamron, Sigma etc. D850 is a solid DSLR choice. Strange, when I read your posts, they don't seem to be fully informed.

You think you'd be able to capture better landscape images using the features of the D850 as opposed to your K1? Even without using Pixel Shift (not available on the D850) the dynamic range of the K1 betters the D850 doesn't it?

You don't need fast AF with a hundred crosspoints, or 10 burst a second speeds, or a massive buffer, or a multitude of lens options for landscape photos. BTW, I have several compatible third party lenses both zoom and prime for my K1 so I'm not missing anything AFAICT. For an all-round good for most stuff camera the D850 is certainly more fully featured. I wouldn't use the K1 for sports or wildlife. For a landscape shooter those "better" things on the D850 are marginally beneficial if at all. The K1 is the "better" value and the resultant photos potentially include "better" detail than the D850, conditions permitting. So of course "better" depends on what you're using the camera for and under what conditions.

As I mentioned earlier the D850 may very well be "better" for you and probably is. TBH you should reconsider buying one. With the prices falling it won't be quite as costly for you to changeover, but even if it wasn't being happy with your gear is more important anyway. Be happy.

[Serkevan]

There is no "entry level" buyer. That person is sticking with their cell phone. There is no advantage in going after a market segment that has withered on the vine due to disruptive market forces. Also, with DSLRs, the entry level user has changed brands about as often as they change their underwear.

Meanwhile, out of the 10 or so people I know who bought a camera in the last couple years, 9 bought entry level.

And the 10th as well, he just upgraded to FF later. I do not know a single person who starts off a hobby - any hobby - with high-end gear straight out of the box. The cell phone is a terrible analogy, because it has two, maybe 3 focal lengths, of which at most one is of half-decent quality, which is highly limiting when someone wants to improve.

---------- Post added 07-22-22 at 10:08 AM ----------

but even if it wasn't being happy with your gear is more important anyway. Be happy.

This is such an important point that all too often gets forgotten.