[stewart_photo]

what would his nationality have to do with this? (snip)

If it doesn't matter, then he'll have no problem answering the question. I asked him before and, unless I missed it somewhere in all the messages in this thread, he did not give an answer.

And the question wasn't unreasonable, especially since he had no problem earlier with pointing out where I'm living, making the assumption that I'm German, and then telling me I don't know the United States, the Constitution, and so on - followed by an inaccurate lecture regarding such (followed still later with how U.S. citizens are not Americans, in spite of clearly residing in the Americas).

stewart

[Wheatfield]

I say "under normal circumstances" because you've repeatedly failed to answer a question I've raised before. You said something earlier about your less-than-perfect command of the English language. Are you a visitor or recent immigrant to this country, and did your nationality or national origin play a role in the incident you described at Penn Station?

stewart

Ah yes, racial profiling finally rears it's ugly head.
What took you so long?
Shall we add PWB (Photographing While Brown) to the same list of suspicious activities as DWB?

Sorry Peter, I hope this post doesn't ruffle too many feathers.

[séamuis]

If it doesn't matter, then he'll have no problem answering the question. I asked him before and, unless I missed it somewhere in all the messages in this thread, he did not give an answer.

And the question wasn't unreasonable, especially since he had no problem earlier with pointing out where I'm living, making the assumption that I'm German, and then telling me I don't know the United States, the Constitution, and so on - followed by an inaccurate lecture regarding such (followed still later with how U.S. citizens are not Americans, in spite of clearly residing in the Americas).

stewart

your feeling insulted is of no relevance what so ever. it was a mistake on his part but not an impossible one to make. having said that, your question still makes no sense and has nothing to do with the situation. if he had in fact been stopped based on percieved nationality it would be discrimination. since he has not made one mention of such a situation, why are you even bringing this into the discussion? and and what part could it possibly play in trespassing? you are now reaching way out there and in doing so making yourself look bad. there are a few of us who don't think too highly of you based on previous experiences and you are not helping yourself here as far as I am concerned.

[baltochef920]

I have been reading and participating in this thread with great interest..It is one of the few that I have ever read on any forum where the OP has continued to participate after the original post, and it is certainly different in the amount of factual, usable information that has been provided..

Thanks to Mike Riley, Mr. Kerzic, Mr. Miller, and all of the others for trying to keep things on point, and for keeping things as civil and level-headed as possible..

Aside from the First Amendment rights violation issues, a point that seems to be continually overlooked in these discussions is this:

Is anyone else as angry as I am over the stupendous waste of time and money that we as citizens have, and are, allowing our police officers and security forces to spend on these futile attempts to provide the illusion of public safety??..

It would be my educated guess that since September 11, 2001, our country has squandered billions of dollars, and tens of millions of hours in demanding that the police achieve the unachievable..

Do you not think that the police could find more effective things to do that would result in an actual improvement in public safety??..

Do you as a citizen of whatever municipality that you live in want your local police department to continue to pour time and money into a bottomless pit with no tangible results to show for 7-plus years of effort and harassment??..

Do you not think that it is high time we demanded that our various police agencies stop these various forms of harassment, and instead focus their energies in areas of law enforcement where achievable results are actually possible??..

Bruce

[Blue]

. . .

Is anyone else as angry as I am over the stupendous waste of time and money that we as citizens have, and are, allowing our police officers and security forces to spend on these futile attempts to provide the illusion of public safety??..

It would be my educated guess that since September 11, 2001, our country has squandered billions of dollars, and tens of millions of hours in demanding that the police achieve the unachievable..

Do you not think that the police could find more effective things to do that would result in an actual improvement in public safety??..

. . .

Bruce

I agree with you on this and have been watching this for the better part of 7 years. Many police agencies here in Florida actually have the ability to do a credit check on people. Tallahassee PD runs hundreds of plates randomly on a weekly basis for no specific reason.

[duanekerzic]

Oh, good grief. I've tried not to widen the discussion, but this just cannot be ignored. Does the Pentagon have security, Mike? Does it have controlled entrances and exists, barricades in front of venerable areas outside, security guards (Pentagon police at exterior contol points & military personnel controlling key areas inside), restrictions on activities in the building, restrictions on photography, and so on?

Now this can't be ignored. Stewart, There are no PENTAGON police. Last time I bothered to check the pentagon is a military base. Last time I checked the Code of Federal Regulations commanding officers are allowed to limit photography in certain parts of military bases. Stewart, again you are having some selective reading without any basis in fact. No one doubts that the government can have some areas where there is an overriding needs to use it's powers to limit certain freedoms. The "Clear and Present Danger" doctrine is one of the tests generally used to make this determination. The private areas of the Pentagon are such a place. Photography of the exterior of the Pentagon is not limited.

Are you aware that public transportation systems (buses, trains, subways, etc) have repeatedly been targeted by terrorists around the world, with people dying as a result? If so, why is security for the Pentagon a good thing, but not a good thing for those public transportation systems? Why is it entirely reasonable for you to expect security at the Pentagon (to protect the butts of those working there), but not reasonable for the average citizen to expect the same - dismissed with "I do understand the need and desire to feel secure," but actual security at facilities known to be targeted by terrorists is not the way to do that.

Stewart no one said that security at places of public transportation isn't a good idea. I think there probably should be places where people aren't allowed to go in these places. Places where there is a "CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER". However a platform where by several peoples admission that many people use in the course of a day just isn't a place for such, if there was a "clear and present danger" people should never been allowed to enter without the appreciate training. This is the case in all military bases. There are basically places everyone can go, including the public, think if the mayor of the town was refused admission to visit the commanding officer. Actually this is a good example. So the mayor obviously has a reason to visit the base. Now think about certain maintenance activities that might be conducted in a base that are hazardous. The military has a reason to prevent the mayor from visiting these places to prevent him from being injured. There might be a room where the tracking of the location of certain military assets and their material condition is conducted. Think strategic nuke subs, B-52's, missile defense systems. The government has an overriding interest in keeping such things top secret and limited to only to those with a need to know. So they would have perfect right to keep those things from public view.

Stewart what government agency was that you worked for, Sanitation Engineering?

It's true building security, even at the Pentagon, did not prevent the 9/11 attacks. But, if you hold or held a significant position at the Pentagon, you would know both the government and military have taken substantial steps since to ensure that type of attack does not so easily happen again. At the same time, you would also know intelligence gathering has increased sharply, including huge increases in budgets for personnel, increased recruiting programs overseas, changes and increases in assets to facilitate intelligence gathering, and much more. But, in the final analysis (as I've said many times before), intelligence gathering will never replace the man or woman (the human being) at the location who can watch, ask questions, control lingering individuals or groups, and potentially intercede - the very type of things those police officers were doing when Kerzic decided to argue with them instead.

stewart

If they want to have people watching it's best to use the population at large. Just like they did in WW2.

You haven't shown any reasons to not allow taking photos of trains that by your and several other peoples addmision are viewed by millions of people a day. I don't think it's millions however.

[duanekerzic]

Sorry, but someone is just not being truthful here. It obviously would have taken far more than nine minutes for the train platform to completely empty of passengers and rail personnel (Kerzic said the platform was empty), him to take photographs of the passenger platform area interior (entrances, exits, passageways, etc), and for police officers to approach him for questioning.

stewart


-

Stewart,

The time stamps are in the exif of the photos. I name my photos using the following system.

Date in the yyyymmdd followed a "_" followed by the time in the hhmmss format followed by a "_" followed by the file name assigned by the camera without resetting the counter untill it gets to 9999 or for some reason the camera is worked on that causes a reset.

So Stewar the times are available for you to check. Get the work done and report back.

[duanekerzic]

If it doesn't matter, then he'll have no problem answering the question. I asked him before and, unless I missed it somewhere in all the messages in this thread, he did not give an answer.

And the question wasn't unreasonable, especially since he had no problem earlier with pointing out where I'm living, making the assumption that I'm German, and then telling me I don't know the United States, the Constitution, and so on - followed by an inaccurate lecture regarding such (followed still later with how U.S. citizens are not Americans, in spite of clearly residing in the Americas).

stewart

More inaccurate reading on your part Stewart. Yes I assumed you were a German Citizen, that's correct. I never said that Citizens of the United States of America aren't Americans, you're wrong on that point. Not the first time for you.

I said that all residents of North, Central and South America are also Americans. That while this is an issue that effects those in the USA it doesn't effect all Americans. I said that the constitution doesn't apply to Americans it applies to citizens and residents of the USA. I'd love to see an American that's a Mexican Citizen living in Mexico claim protection under the Constitution of the USA in Mexico. Yet that Mexican is an American becuase of where he lives.

Stewart my photo is posted in many places. As are photos of my wrist. There is evidence of my perceived race posted, make your own determination. I didn't answer the question because there should be no doubt, you can observe for yourself my perceived race. It's also stated I was an Officer in the US Navy. What are the requirements to be appointed to such office?

I'm really sorry to say this but I'm beginning think Stewart suffers from some kind of perception deficit. I'm also beginning to think he's a racist. I'm also beginning to believe he's only a troll that only wants to stir up trouble and doesn't really have any interest in facts.

[duanekerzic]

I have been reading and participating in this thread with great interest..It is one of the few that I have ever read on any forum where the OP has continued to participate after the original post, and it is certainly different in the amount of factual, usable information that has been provided..

Thanks to Mike Riley, Mr. Kerzic, Mr. Miller, and all of the others for trying to keep things on point, and for keeping things as civil and level-headed as possible..

Aside from the First Amendment rights violation issues, a point that seems to be continually overlooked in these discussions is this:

Is anyone else as angry as I am over the stupendous waste of time and money that we as citizens have, and are, allowing our police officers and security forces to spend on these futile attempts to provide the illusion of public safety??..

It would be my educated guess that since September 11, 2001, our country has squandered billions of dollars, and tens of millions of hours in demanding that the police achieve the unachievable..

Do you not think that the police could find more effective things to do that would result in an actual improvement in public safety??..

Do you as a citizen of whatever municipality that you live in want your local police department to continue to pour time and money into a bottomless pit with no tangible results to show for 7-plus years of effort and harassment??..

Do you not think that it is high time we demanded that our various police agencies stop these various forms of harassment, and instead focus their energies in areas of law enforcement where achievable results are actually possible??..

Bruce

I'm furious about it. This is the same as so many things. I have a small list.

School Security. We've spent over 100 billion on school security since Columbine. There have been less than 200 deaths in all school shootings since and including. Thousands of kids in High Schools and College take their lives each year. In the same time period we haven't even spent a billion on research to learn to prevent suicide in these people.

I don't know what the Amber Alert System Cost. I'd say it's safe to assume nation wide it's over a billion. It's been activated 400 times as of '06 or '07.

3000 people died on 911, sad yes. 3750 people die a month in motor vehicle accidents. Almost 2750 take their lives in a month.

There is no evidence that drug dealers that happen to live in school zones target kids for the sales of drugs. Yet if you live in a school zone your do double time for selling drugs. Be sure to check the definition of a school zone, it's got nothing to do with where children are present. It's defined as any place the local board of ed has some property interest in. In some towns the board of ed has rented closets in peoples houses so the entire city is a school zone.

Pictures of children. there is some evidence that pedophiles look at photos of children. There isn't any evidence that people that look at photos of children are more likely to be pedophiles. Yet go to a park and take a photo of a child and see how you are treated.

Sexual preditor notification. Just how many sexual preditors are there in the country? Look up the number in your state. It'll surprise you.

People get all worried about getting HIV/AIDS from broken condomes. How many people have HIV/AIDS in the USA? The woman is about 1,000 times more likely to get pregnant yet she worried about HIV and doesn't even think about getting pregnant.

If they didn't increase security in airports at all do you really think that anyone will ever be allowed to hijack a plane again? The passengers won't allow it. It even happened that day.

There is lots more. I have other things to do today.

[MJ²]

"If they want to have people watching it's best to use the population at large"

A most basic fact of life. The more eyes there are the more likely people are to be safe as the number of eyes willing to note and report/react to the improper behavior rise dramitically. We are our own safety. The police are our tool to enforce it. It would break the bank to pay for a security force to watch over everything. We need some self responsibility and at the same time the freedom to live our lives and participate in our own well-being.

Or we could just bring on the mandatory curfews for our own good

[Aaron1971]

"If they want to have people watching it's best to use the population at large"

A most basic fact of life. The more eyes there are the more likely people are to be safe as the number of eyes willing to note and report/react to the improper behavior rise dramitically. We are our own safety. The police are our tool to enforce it. It would break the bank to pay for a security force to watch over everything. We need some self responsibility and at the same time the freedom to live our lives and participate in our own well-being.

Or we could just bring on the mandatory curfews for our own good

I do agree that this fear-mongering has cost the US taxpayers an unbelievable amount of money. I do believe Mr. Kerzic was bullied by a police officer (based on what has been presented here). Was it because the PO wasn't aware of the laws? Maybe. Was it because he enjoys his power? Maybe. Have we been moving in the direction of a police state? It seems like it. Should we rely on society for our security....man, it would be nice, of course taken too far and you wouldn't be able to trust anyone, think political dissenters under any dictator, children turning in their own parents, etc.! I see people posting that we are no safer now than we were before 911, how do we know that? I can tell you from experience that when it comes to Security the only way to quantify success is to "come home alive". I just hope that Mr. Kerzic's situation resolves itself in his favor and these incidents become a thing of the past.

[Aaron1971]

"If they want to have people watching it's best to use the population at large"

A most basic fact of life. The more eyes there are the more likely people are to be safe as the number of eyes willing to note and report/react to the improper behavior rise dramitically. We are our own safety. The police are our tool to enforce it. It would break the bank to pay for a security force to watch over everything. We need some self responsibility and at the same time the freedom to live our lives and participate in our own well-being.

Or we could just bring on the mandatory curfews for our own good

I do agree that this fear-mongering has cost the US taxpayers an unbelievable amount of money. I do believe Mr. Kerzic was bullied by a police officer (based on what has been presented here). Was it because the PO wasn't aware of the laws? Maybe. Was it because he enjoys his power? Maybe. Have we been moving in the direction of a police state? It seems like it. Should we rely on society for our security....man, it would be nice, of course taken too far and you wouldn't be able to trust anyone, think political dissenters under any dictator, children turning in their own parents, etc.! I see people posting that we are no safer now than we were before 911, how do we know that? I can tell you from experience that when it comes to Security the only way to quantify success is to "come home alive". I have not seen the photos of his wrists but have to as Wheatfield why the question of racial profiling is so absurd? We have incidents of RP occur every day. I hope I am reading your meaning properly. I just hope that Mr. Kerzic's situation resolves itself in his favor and these incidents become a thing of the past.

[MRRiley]

Oh, good grief. I've tried not to widen the discussion, but this just cannot be ignored. Does the Pentagon have security, Mike? Does it have controlled entrances and exists, barricades in front of venerable areas outside, security guards (Pentagon police at exterior contol points & military personnel controlling key areas inside), restrictions on activities in the building, restrictions on photography, and so on? Are you aware that public transportation systems (buses, trains, subways, etc) have repeatedly been targeted by terrorists around the world, with people dying as a result? If so, why is security for the Pentagon a good thing, but not a good thing for those public transportation systems? Why is it entirely reasonable for you to expect security at the Pentagon (to protect the butts of those working there), but not reasonable for the average citizen to expect the same - dismissed with "I do understand the need and desire to feel secure," but actual security at facilities known to be targeted by terrorists is not the way to do that.

It's true building security, even at the Pentagon, did not prevent the 9/11 attacks. But, if you hold or held a significant position at the Pentagon, you would know both the government and military have taken substantial steps since to ensure that type of attack does not so easily happen again. At the same time, you would also know intelligence gathering has increased sharply, including huge increases in budgets for personnel, increased recruiting programs overseas, changes and increases in assets to facilitate intelligence gathering, and much more. But, in the final analysis (as I've said many times before), intelligence gathering will never replace the man or woman (the human being) at the location who can watch, ask questions, control lingering individuals or groups, and potentially intercede - the very type of things those police officers were doing when Kerzic decided to argue with them instead.

stewart

Of course the Pentagon has security. I believe we have discussed this in another thread in the past. I do not even dispute that photography of military (and nuclear) installations can be restricted or even prohibited. There are indeed "often" compelling reasons to so restrict photography.

And yes I know that civilian transportation systems have been targeted. In fact I would readily admit that nearly every single major terrorist incident in the last 10 years (perhaps longer) has involved a sector of the public transportation system.

Public transportation systems simply offer easy and convenient targets with the potential of multiple victims. Please forgive this, but it is simply "the most bang for the buck!" This is the very reason that the terrorists target them. Unfortunately due to it's sheer size and complexity the public transportation network is practically impossible to secure sufficiently to insure safety, and still be used willingly by the public.

The overwhelming security at military installations does effectively deter the average terrorist at least in this country. It hasn't done as well over seas. However it is not reasonable to compare that security to the security provided to "civilian targets" such as the various public transportation systems.

Consider these factors...

Military installation (and to some extent commercial aviation facilities)
1 - there are a finite number of military installations
2 - there is very little if anything on the installation that the public has a routine need to access
3 - there is "stuff" on the installation that is dangerous to the general public
4 - each has a large compliment of highly trained dedicated security forces
5 - access is controlled by physical barriers with limited numbers of access points
6 - access is limited to those approved by they installation commander
7 - each has a large cadre of technical & support personnel who are trained in force & facility protection in case the front line security forces are breached

Non-aviation public transportation "node" (train station, bus station, etc)
1 - the number of "nodes" is virtually infinite
2 - the public has a routine and frequent need to access the system
3 - in general there is little to endanger the public... exceptions are secured behind moderate security barriers (chain link and locked doors)
4 - numbers of security personnel is sporadic... major nodes may have tens or hundreds while a a on-demand stop in the hinterlands MIGHT have one Barney Fife standing by (probably not)... what security personnel there are are unevenly trained and are often multitasked with other routine police duties
5 - access to major nodes is often controlled by physical barriers but access points are numerous... access to minor nodes is wide open
6 - access is open to most, if not all, of the public... for those areas reserved for ticketed passengers (boarding platforms or the train or bus itself) visitors are not "vetted" beyond the fact that they "have a ticket"
7 - the "non-security" personnel working at or on the system, have little if any training in anything beyond their jobs, much less how to protect themselves, their visitors or passengers in the event of an attack

Given these points, even though it would be wonderful to be able to secure the public transportation system as well as even the average military installation is secured... it is hardly practical, much less affordable. I can't even begin to imagine how many more police officers we would need to watch every single train and bus station regardless of size and every stop where a passenger might board. This would be the level of personnel needed to even moderately secure the system. And if you cut back on personnel to only covered major stops you would have defeated yourself since a shield with holes in it is as bad in many cases as no shield at all. In fact, having that partial shield may be more dangerous since it provides a false sense of security. If there is a hole, the bad guys will find it.

Now, to turn to your other points...

Yes, intelligence gathering has increased greatly. In fact I imagine there is so much intelligence that they can't process it all. What we need, and what I am not convinced we have, is more intelligent intelligence.

And yes, we need eyes and ears on the front lines, in the train stations and on the buses andin the malls.... BUT those eyes and ears must be better trained in what to look for and the differences betweenlegal behaviours and illegal behaviours. They also need to be trained in such concepts as "observe and report". Unless a suspect, exhibiting multiple typical "bad guy" indicators, also begins to exhibit behaviour common immediately before an attack, it is likely better to watch him and notify their superiors or other specialized agencies who can keep him under surveilence until he contacts his confederates. This way, you catch the whole school, not just the little fish.

[Lowell Goudge]

.......... I actually didn't expect what I got, I expected to be questioned and asked what I was doing, sniff for explosives take down my name, I think they had a right to do that. .....

I know this is out of context, a little, but it is finally an admission of what I expected. Duane knew beforehand that he was doing something that would elicit a response.

He got more than he bargened for, and while I can't say that I approve of everything he ultimately got, I have no sympathy for anyone who sets out knowing what he or she is going to do is objectionable to someone, whether the objection is or is not rightfully founded, and then complains after the fact.

I will now say goodbye to this thread.

[MRRiley]

"If they want to have people watching it's best to use the population at large"

A most basic fact of life. The more eyes there are the more likely people are to be safe as the number of eyes willing to note and report/react to the improper behavior rise dramitically. We are our own safety. The police are our tool to enforce it. It would break the bank to pay for a security force to watch over everything. We need some self responsibility and at the same time the freedom to live our lives and participate in our own well-being.

Or we could just bring on the mandatory curfews for our own good

Be careful what you ask for. The Washington Metro (DC's subway) published the following policy statement early last year.

Metro would like to remind you that customers play an important role in keeping our system safe. Please remember to be watchful for...
* Unusual persons or activities
* Unattended bags, packages, boxes, backpacks, etc.
* Persons photographing, sketching or documenting activity at or around Metro stations

From what I understand they were flooded with calls from people reporting all of the things they had been told to watch for. Most calls turned out to be misunderstandings or people who had not a clue. There were calls about people wearing trench coats (when it was raining), calls about coountless suspicious arabs, and of course, evil spying photographers. I believe it was finally abandoned as it is no longer on Metro's website (that I can find anyway)

The problem is, asking an uneducated public to watch for "improper behavior"is futile since to a large degree, they have no idea what is "improper." They MAY have vague ideas about certain illegal acts but they are not trained in recognizing and separating odd/unusual/weird lawful behaviors from illegal behavior. Heck, if the police can't get it right (Photography is not a crime), then why would you expect Joe the Plumber or Aunt Bertha to get it right?

Of course I am not advocating adding gazillions of new security forces. We simply need to train the ones we have better, target them properly and make sure they know the difference between legal behaviors and illegal ones. Once they know those differences they can ignore the legal behaviors and concentrate on the illegal.