A sobering development

ftpaddict · 01-06-2009, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by bymy141

“Big Two” continue to stomp Digital SLR market in Japan - SlashGear

- Bert

The OP has the same link in his original post. Why mention it twice?

Gooshin · 01-06-2009, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by ftpaddict

The OP has the same link in his original post. Why mention it twice?

emphasis...

bymy141 · 01-06-2009, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by ftpaddict

The OP has the same link in his original post. Why mention it twice?

Yeah, stupid, missed it.
Browsing too fast...

- Bert

kristoffon · 01-10-2009, 12:54 PM

To put things into some perspective, sigma recently bought Foveon who made the sensor in their cameras. I'm sure everyone knows.

According to Flickr their SD14 camera has 22 daily users, against 2395 daily XSi users or 169 K20D users. So even with that TINY marketshare they seem to be making enough money on their camera body business to warrant a major investment.

I guess the market is big enough that even a 1% share is significant.

nostatic · 01-23-2009, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by dave sz

I hope you're not saying that mac is better quality than pc?

why? Because you're going to point out all the reasons why a PC is superior?

I'm not going down that rabbit hole. I will say that if you compare the design and execution of any piece of Apple hardware vs. the competition you'll see a difference. Whether or not that is "better" is up to the individual. As for OS, whatever floats your boat. But I haven't needed to run anti-virus or had a BSOD in many many years. And I can't run FinalCutPro on a PC. But I can run widows on my Mac.

graphicgr8s · 01-23-2009, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by nostatic

why? Because you're going to point out all the reasons why a PC is superior?

I'm not going down that rabbit hole. I will say that if you compare the design and execution of any piece of Apple hardware vs. the competition you'll see a difference. Whether or not that is "better" is up to the individual. As for OS, whatever floats your boat. But I haven't needed to run anti-virus or had a BSOD in many many years. And I can't run FinalCutPro on a PC. But I can run widows on my Mac.

And if MicroSoft hadn't pumped 150 million into Apple?

vinzer · 01-23-2009, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by Gooshin

the 5Dmkii, aside from producing compressed data and a time limit on shots, is a serious slap in the face to any dedicated movie camera.

*Any* dedicated movie camera? I beg to differ. The image quality one can get from the highest-end digital movie cameras (CineAltas and P2-based video cameras) are far and away better than the movie output of the 5D Mk II. I don't think it could even touch the RED's output, much less real 35mm film movie cameras and IMAX-format movie cameras.

code4code5 · 01-23-2009, 09:42 PM

I've been looking pretty hard, but can't find an outlet for reasonably priced Pentax gear in Denver at all. What they do have at Wolf (on 104th Ave. and Grant St.) is near MSRP. The Ultimate Electronics at 84th Ave. and I-25 carries a few things, but last time I checked, they were at MSRP.

Let me know if you can find somewhere. The Camera Trader has some MF stuff, but not a great selection.

sebberry · 01-29-2009, 02:00 AM

I was recently at a friends wedding. I will say that there wer about 4 Canon XTi/XSi type DSLRs and no Pentax cameras other than mine. The pro photographer they hired was using a Sony something.. (I didn't see the model)

I got into the DSLR hobby after playing with a friend's Canon XTi. I loved the feel of it and just using it compared to my Powershot S3. I decided to shop around for DSLRs and while the K10D was more expensive than the entry level Canon/Nikon, it simply *felt* like a better piece of photographic equipment.

The Pentax body seemed more solidly constructed (on par with the 50D) and while it is a small feature, I like the lift and turn knobs to access the battery and memory card compartments a lot more than the flimsy slide-to-unlock covers on the XTi/D40. Let's not even talk about how much better the Pentax viewfinder is.

People buy products because they are advertised and easily accessible which is why I saw everyone at the wedding holding a Canon.

Entry-level DSLR cameras are aimed at people who want more than a simple P&S, not people with a collection of lenses that they are worried about compatibility with. I know that the K200D isn't *quite* as nice or solid as the K20D, but if you can somehow get the people who stroll into the big box store and snap up Canon to at least look at the Pentax line, I think sales will improve. I know that when I went to buy a Canon I walked out with the Pentax.

arpaagent · 01-29-2009, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by Mike Cash

About 10 years ago I saw a news item reporting that Sony had on-hand cash reserves greater than the five largest U.S. Banks....combined.

Unfortunately for sony that isn't the case any more. They are experiencing HUGE operating losses in the current global economy and with how the current exchange rates with the yen becoming more powerful. They are hurting and having to lay off thousands of workers...

stewart_photo · 01-29-2009, 11:35 PM

Originally posted by Mark Castleman

(snip) I know that there is going to be a lot of pulling back in many industries and I can't begin to speculate on why things look dire right now but as many here have said Pentax needs to actively stay in this market or they will be pushed out.

The situation is not particularly sobering to me. Local camera stores, first facing competition from the internet and now an overall market downturn, have been cutting back on inventory, or just going out of business entirely, for a good number of years now. And, given the advertsing budget of Pentax compared to the behemoths in the industry (such as Sony), it's not overly surprising Pentax products would be amongst that inventory cut back.

Finally, the #3 spot in market share in Japan, below Canon and Nikon, changes each and every year depending on the latest product release - last year Pentax with the K10D, this year Sony, and next year someone else. In other words, no single company has a lock on that market share position at this point. But, even if that were not the case, market share doesn't really bother me since there are camera companies doing well financially without any significant market share at all. The greater concern (something Minolta screwed up) is how the company is handling it's finances and budget (profits and losses), which Pentax seems to be handling reasonably well at this point.

stewart

EDIT: Hopefully this message will not appear twice. First attempt at sending ended in an error, so posted again after waiting several minutes to see if it would show up.

stewart_photo · 01-30-2009, 12:33 AM

Originally posted by NicholasN

Poor/lack of advertising is the Achilles heel for Pentax. As the saying goes, "you have to spend money to make money" (snip)

True perhaps to a certain point. But one also has to be realistic. A single full-page ad in a single national magazine can easily run a thousand dollars. Given that, a single print ad compaign (several full-color, full-page, ads in multiple magazines running over several months) in each of the major Pentax markets (North America, Europe, Asia, etc) could cost several hundred million dollars, with a single television ad compaign in each of those same markets costing several times that.

In other words, to run the type of advertising campaign some Pentax users seem to want and expect, Pentax would have to spend more for advertising alone than the company's entire operating budget - which will most certainly drive the company into bankruptcy.

There is no quick fix to magically raise Pentax to the same level as either Canon or Nikon, regarding market share, profits, or advertising budgets. In this turbulent market today, Pentax obviously must take a slow, cautious, strategic, approach to both remain in business and grow. That means spending money only when and where it will do the most long-term good. Extravagant ad compaigns just don't fit that reality.

stewart

Blue · 01-30-2009, 10:22 AM

The irony here is the OP is in Colorado.

Perhaps he could just take a day or so and go down to Golden and try out Ned's Leica.

**Clarkey** · 01-30-2009, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by nostatic

Market share is rarely about quality. Witness Beta vs. VHS, Mac vs. Windows, etc. Lots of factors play into it, and advertising dollars are a huge part, especially with electronic gadgets. Most dSLRs are not bought by enthusiasts.

And Sony won recently with Blu-ray. The quality of toshiba was supposed to be better, but who had the bigger wallet.....

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01-06-2009, 01:06 PM	#16
ftpaddict Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Yurp Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,666	Originally posted by bymy141 “Big Two” continue to stomp Digital SLR market in Japan - SlashGear - Bert The OP has the same link in his original post. Why mention it twice?

01-06-2009, 01:08 PM	#17
Gooshin Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Toronto, the one in Canada. Posts: 5,610	Originally posted by ftpaddict The OP has the same link in his original post. Why mention it twice? emphasis...

01-06-2009, 01:40 PM	#18
bymy141 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,563	Originally posted by ftpaddict The OP has the same link in his original post. Why mention it twice? Yeah, stupid, missed it. Browsing too fast... - Bert

01-10-2009, 12:54 PM	#19
kristoffon Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Brazil Posts: 532	To put things into some perspective, sigma recently bought Foveon who made the sensor in their cameras. I'm sure everyone knows. According to Flickr their SD14 camera has 22 daily users, against 2395 daily XSi users or 169 K20D users. So even with that TINY marketshare they seem to be making enough money on their camera body business to warrant a major investment. I guess the market is big enough that even a 1% share is significant.

01-23-2009, 04:17 PM	#20
nostatic Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: socal Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,575	Originally posted by dave sz I hope you're not saying that mac is better quality than pc? why? Because you're going to point out all the reasons why a PC is superior? I'm not going down that rabbit hole. I will say that if you compare the design and execution of any piece of Apple hardware vs. the competition you'll see a difference. Whether or not that is "better" is up to the individual. As for OS, whatever floats your boat. But I haven't needed to run anti-virus or had a BSOD in many many years. And I can't run FinalCutPro on a PC. But I can run widows on my Mac.

01-23-2009, 07:01 PM	#21
graphicgr8s Guest	Originally posted by nostatic why? Because you're going to point out all the reasons why a PC is superior? I'm not going down that rabbit hole. I will say that if you compare the design and execution of any piece of Apple hardware vs. the competition you'll see a difference. Whether or not that is "better" is up to the individual. As for OS, whatever floats your boat. But I haven't needed to run anti-virus or had a BSOD in many many years. And I can't run FinalCutPro on a PC. But I can run widows on my Mac. And if MicroSoft hadn't pumped 150 million into Apple?

01-23-2009, 08:39 PM	#22
vinzer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Philippines Posts: 1,399	Originally posted by Gooshin the 5Dmkii, aside from producing compressed data and a time limit on shots, is a serious slap in the face to any dedicated movie camera. Any dedicated movie camera? I beg to differ. The image quality one can get from the highest-end digital movie cameras (CineAltas and P2-based video cameras) are far and away better than the movie output of the 5D Mk II. I don't think it could even touch the RED's output, much less real 35mm film movie cameras and IMAX-format movie cameras.

01-23-2009, 09:42 PM	#23
code4code5 Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Denver, CO Photos: Gallery Posts: 438	I've been looking pretty hard, but can't find an outlet for reasonably priced Pentax gear in Denver at all. What they do have at Wolf (on 104th Ave. and Grant St.) is near MSRP. The Ultimate Electronics at 84th Ave. and I-25 carries a few things, but last time I checked, they were at MSRP. Let me know if you can find somewhere. The Camera Trader has some MF stuff, but not a great selection.

01-29-2009, 02:00 AM	#24
sebberry Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Frozen white North Photos: Albums Posts: 1,135	I was recently at a friends wedding. I will say that there wer about 4 Canon XTi/XSi type DSLRs and no Pentax cameras other than mine. The pro photographer they hired was using a Sony something.. (I didn't see the model) I got into the DSLR hobby after playing with a friend's Canon XTi. I loved the feel of it and just using it compared to my Powershot S3. I decided to shop around for DSLRs and while the K10D was more expensive than the entry level Canon/Nikon, it simply felt like a better piece of photographic equipment. The Pentax body seemed more solidly constructed (on par with the 50D) and while it is a small feature, I like the lift and turn knobs to access the battery and memory card compartments a lot more than the flimsy slide-to-unlock covers on the XTi/D40. Let's not even talk about how much better the Pentax viewfinder is. People buy products because they are advertised and easily accessible which is why I saw everyone at the wedding holding a Canon. Entry-level DSLR cameras are aimed at people who want more than a simple P&S, not people with a collection of lenses that they are worried about compatibility with. I know that the K200D isn't quite as nice or solid as the K20D, but if you can somehow get the people who stroll into the big box store and snap up Canon to at least look at the Pentax line, I think sales will improve. I know that when I went to buy a Canon I walked out with the Pentax.

01-29-2009, 09:14 AM	#25
arpaagent Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Raleigh, NC Photos: Gallery Posts: 803	Originally posted by Mike Cash About 10 years ago I saw a news item reporting that Sony had on-hand cash reserves greater than the five largest U.S. Banks....combined. Unfortunately for sony that isn't the case any more. They are experiencing HUGE operating losses in the current global economy and with how the current exchange rates with the yen becoming more powerful. They are hurting and having to lay off thousands of workers...

01-29-2009, 11:35 PM	#26
stewart_photo Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 1,864	Originally posted by Mark Castleman (snip) I know that there is going to be a lot of pulling back in many industries and I can't begin to speculate on why things look dire right now but as many here have said Pentax needs to actively stay in this market or they will be pushed out. The situation is not particularly sobering to me. Local camera stores, first facing competition from the internet and now an overall market downturn, have been cutting back on inventory, or just going out of business entirely, for a good number of years now. And, given the advertsing budget of Pentax compared to the behemoths in the industry (such as Sony), it's not overly surprising Pentax products would be amongst that inventory cut back. Finally, the #3 spot in market share in Japan, below Canon and Nikon, changes each and every year depending on the latest product release - last year Pentax with the K10D, this year Sony, and next year someone else. In other words, no single company has a lock on that market share position at this point. But, even if that were not the case, market share doesn't really bother me since there are camera companies doing well financially without any significant market share at all. The greater concern (something Minolta screwed up) is how the company is handling it's finances and budget (profits and losses), which Pentax seems to be handling reasonably well at this point. stewart EDIT: Hopefully this message will not appear twice. First attempt at sending ended in an error, so posted again after waiting several minutes to see if it would show up.

01-30-2009, 12:33 AM	#27
stewart_photo Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 1,864	Originally posted by NicholasN Poor/lack of advertising is the Achilles heel for Pentax. As the saying goes, "you have to spend money to make money" (snip) True perhaps to a certain point. But one also has to be realistic. A single full-page ad in a single national magazine can easily run a thousand dollars. Given that, a single print ad compaign (several full-color, full-page, ads in multiple magazines running over several months) in each of the major Pentax markets (North America, Europe, Asia, etc) could cost several hundred million dollars, with a single television ad compaign in each of those same markets costing several times that. In other words, to run the type of advertising campaign some Pentax users seem to want and expect, Pentax would have to spend more for advertising alone than the company's entire operating budget - which will most certainly drive the company into bankruptcy. There is no quick fix to magically raise Pentax to the same level as either Canon or Nikon, regarding market share, profits, or advertising budgets. In this turbulent market today, Pentax obviously must take a slow, cautious, strategic, approach to both remain in business and grow. That means spending money only when and where it will do the most long-term good. Extravagant ad compaigns just don't fit that reality. stewart

01-30-2009, 10:22 AM	#28
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	The irony here is the OP is in Colorado. Perhaps he could just take a day or so and go down to Golden and try out Ned's Leica.

01-30-2009, 03:09 PM	#29
Clarkey Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Brampton, ON, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,456	Originally posted by nostatic Market share is rarely about quality. Witness Beta vs. VHS, Mac vs. Windows, etc. Lots of factors play into it, and advertising dollars are a huge part, especially with electronic gadgets. Most dSLRs are not bought by enthusiasts. And Sony won recently with Blu-ray. The quality of toshiba was supposed to be better, but who had the bigger wallet.....