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02-06-2009, 10:28 AM   #1
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How much should I charge?

An age old question that's probably been addressed on this forum a bazillion times, but I'm new to the forum (and a limited amount of time I can spend on it since I'm on break at work) so I'll cut to the chase ...

I'm an advanced amateur with good skills and knowledge, but no real professional experience. I was asked by a marketing director of a label manufacturing company to shoot a food item for one of their product pitches. The photo could end up on the product's packaging on super market shelves across the globe She asked me how much I'd charge for the shoot. She'd be there to help & direct, but I'd be the shooter, use all my own equipment including lighting, at my location (no travel expenses) and I would post everything myself (although she's extremely proficient in Photoshop and might want to 'tweak' things for the final medium).

There are not a lot of pro photogs in our area to ask - and the few working pros in the area I know of are not exactly forthcoming with newbie competition so I'm kind of on my own here.

I was thinking $50 an hour since I'm a newbie. It would probably guarantee me the opportunity. I'm guessing the shoot will be 1 - 2 hours setup, 3 hours shooting, 3 hours post (will shoot JPG+RAW). So that'd be around $400 total. Even as an amateur, that seems cheap. But is it reasonable?

02-06-2009, 11:35 AM   #2
Ari
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Ready for a crazy answer? Do it for free. Tell her you keep the copyright to the photographs, add it to a portfolio and use it to get some other gigs (if that is something you're interested in doing). I am shooting an engagement party in April for free (I know there are other concerns when shooting an image that may be reproduced for a product placement) but it'll probably be good experience (and it doesn't hurt doing your higher-ups a nice favor).
If it is at all applicable, here is a good article on working for free:
Strobist: Four Reasons to Consider Working for Free
02-06-2009, 01:01 PM   #3
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02-06-2009, 05:23 PM   #4
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Nope I don't think it's reasonable one bit. It feels massively under-priced. $400 to use an image on 'global' packaging? I'd have a good look round and see what you can find out before possibly underselling youself.

e.g. NUJ Freelance Fees Guide: General advice - Negotiating fees "always get the client to put their offer first."

It's from the UK, but there could be some useful things in there.

02-06-2009, 05:38 PM   #5
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Well, one is telling you to do it for "free", and the other is telling you that you're way under-priced. So, yes. Amazingly enough, I think you are right on the money. .

Regards,
Mike
QuoteOriginally posted by veezchick Quote
I was thinking $50 an hour since I'm a newbie.
02-06-2009, 05:59 PM   #6
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I agree with free to a point

Hello and congrats on someone noticing your skill, after all they approched you. I would concider doing the shoot for free and add it to your portfolio but if they choose to use your image on the product you should get paid. Now how much is a different story and you would have to look into usage pricing it could be $.02 - $.10 per item distributed whatever it is look at the projected number of items shipped and it could add up to a tidy sum of money. So in the end my answer is free for experiance and $$$ for usage.
02-06-2009, 07:22 PM   #7
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You charge for the use of the image, mostly. Your time and expenses figure into it, but it is the usage that is the main bulk of the charge.



You might structure it 2 ways:

1. Use on product ($800 or so. The value of the product and the notoriety of the brand factor into it as well.)
2. Not used on product ($100 for time and effort.)

I no longer have my "Photographer's Marketplace" or this book (I took her class many years ago...)

Amazon.com: The Photographer's Guide to Marketing and Self-Promotion: Maria Piscopo: Books

02-07-2009, 12:49 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ari Quote
Ready for a crazy answer? Do it for free. Tell her you keep the copyright to the photographs, add it to a portfolio and use it to get some other gigs (if that is something you're interested in doing). I am shooting an engagement party in April for free (I know there are other concerns when shooting an image that may be reproduced for a product placement) but it'll probably be good experience (and it doesn't hurt doing your higher-ups a nice favor).
If it is at all applicable, here is a good article on working for free:
Strobist: Four Reasons to Consider Working for Free
Ari, I don't believe this situation would fall in the scope of Dave Hobby's work for free article. The client approached veezchick not the other way around. This is a commercial assignment with the work likely being used for commercial gain by the client. The work for free idea is primarily to give you, the photographer, leverage to shoot what you want where otherwise there would be no opportunity.

However, there's perhaps lemonade to be made here using Hobby's suggestion... First quote the director market rate for the assignment. Give her a price for the location time, and as sluggo suggested negotiate a price for usage if they like your work and use it in their product advertisements. Now here's where you get the Hobby part - at the same time you're pitching your quote, offer to shoot a corporate portrait session with her for free. She's a marketing director; she's bound to need at least a good headshot for intracompany publications, their website, etc. She gets full usage rights on the shots you make of her for anything she wants - except commercial gain - and you get portfolio material and experience.
02-07-2009, 01:03 AM   #9
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Venturi:
I have to agree on most of your points. These are great suggestions; I hope veeschick takes them to heart.
02-07-2009, 01:16 AM   #10
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I don't usually sell commercial - but the last time I did I was asked to provide a photo I already had in stock. I went through a marketing agency and they negotiated the price (I don't even know what it was but it was based on print size and expected distribution).

The photo went in a brochure advertising a travel destination. Total distribution probably (total guess) 20,000 copies. I got $300 for that. Over the next several months I got 3 more checks worth $100-250. In the end I got about $700 for a picture I had already taken that was produced in limited quantity for a small market.

And don't do it for free. It de-values you and it de-values the whole industry. If you're good enough to do a job then you should get paid for it. Otherwise go to the zoo and take pictures of polar bears... you won't get paid for that either but I bet they're a lot cuter than whatever product they want you to shoot for them.
02-07-2009, 07:39 AM   #11
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some more thoughts for you - http://xposurepro.com/2009/02/pricing-your-photography/
02-07-2009, 10:33 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by HouseOfHorla Quote
Great article. While you shouldn't have a problem initially working for free, it would be only to gain the experience and portfolio to prove that your worth the money to hire. In a sense, consider it your down-payment on your business.

Everyone starts at the bottom. But you have to have a plan if you are going to succeed as a business on top of having the confidence that you can succeed. And that is exactly what you have to treat it as...a business. You set goals, you watch your pennies, you give the paying customer what they want.

Without a plan, it's just reimbursement for a hobby.

As a businessman, I've seen so many people fail for the simple reason that they didn't have a plan and didn't research their market and industry. They went in blind with a hope and a prayer. This is especially true with the artistic...which includes us photographers. We have a lot of emotion wrapped up in our passion and are biased towards our art. Unfortunately the customer may not share that sentiment. If you want to do it for a business, you have to learn to put some of those feelings aside and be willing to do what the customer would like of you. After all, it's their money they are parting with.

Does that mean we leave our artistic side at home? Absolutely not! You just have to learn how to balance your artistic desires with the reality that you have to make money to continue.

The #1 reason most small businesses fail is they try to compete with Walmart on price and Tiffanys on feature-content at the same time. They get leared into thinking they have to have both in order to compete. They don't have a plan and have absolutely no idea what their customer really wants or what will make them money. They charge way to little thinking that is the only way to get business and if they have money left over after the expenses that go into the product, they have made a profit...forgetting all the overhead and administrative costs associated with running a successful business.

They last a year...maybe two...and then cannot figure out why they are loosing money and blame it on Walmart, the economy, or just fate.

Price is not the only reason people buy a product. Don't get sucked into the trap of competing with Walmart or the photographic equivalent. Do you really want a client that only bases your work on price? You will never go home at night satisfied. You must compete on your quality and service as well as your price. People know that quality costs a bit more, and great service is priceless. If you craft your business plan accordingly, you will succeed.
02-07-2009, 04:07 PM   #13
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So you are figuring an eight hour day.....I personally would add a couple of hours in there for transportation, talking on the phone to clients, ftp uploading/mailing packages, review/meetings.

I think fifty per hour sounds cool actually, but don't stop there.

Special K is right saying that USAGE is the main part of the fee structure. Picture yourself in about 6months to a year after the shoot.....your [less than] a thousand bucks is long gone on rent and other bills, and your client is raking in thousand after thousand on the revenue being attracted by your beautiful photography.

With these types of clients I like to ask:
What is the circulation of the publication into which the photos will be published?
What size will they be printed?
How long will the photos remain in print?
Does the client want to buy the rights?
What terms of license are being requested?
02-10-2009, 01:02 PM   #14
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Wow! So many fantastic suggestions and amazing points. Thanks so much to everyone that was kind enough to take your time and help out a newb. Much appreciated! I did finally stick with $50 an hour (negotiating usage really isn't feasible here for a number of reasons). Now we'll see if they go for it ... or go with stock

FYI - I pasted your responses into my own archives for future reference so no suggestion shall be dismissed. Thanks again, all
02-10-2009, 04:07 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by navcom Quote
Without a plan, it's just reimbursement for a hobby.
Very good point Navcom, and excellent post in general. Reminded me also of many similar points in Michael Gerber's book "The E-Myth Revisited" which I would recommend to anyone thinking of starting their own business of any kind.
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