[Lowell Goudge]

Some very good comments so far and it seems that most of you agree with me that neither photo is offensive "in it's cultural context"...

Couple of replies...

Slomojoe... I tried and I simply cannot hold a piece of chalk that way comfortably. I think thats just how the guy points...

Blue... your Eddie Adams story illustrates why clear captioning is very important.

Lowell... Of course it is your responsibility to understand the culture if you are visiting somewhere. However in the 2 photos presented, the photographers and their subjects were working and photographed in their own culture. This is why neither photographer foresaw or likely intended any offense. Part of the problem though is that in today's global communications environment, a photographer cannot know for certain where his photo might end up being viewed. As you said almost anything can be deemed offensive by someone or other so IMHO the best you can do is try not to violate any "globally common" or well known offenses and hope viewers understand that no offense was intended if you miss something.

Steve and Gary... Oh I don't know about the vertical orientation of the gesture being required. Though "a straight up bird" is the most obvious and blatant, I've been flipped off using every conceivable angle of attack.

and to everyone else... I agree whole heartedly, people offend way too easily, but I bet, just as I did, that your first "interpretation" of the gesture in the first photo was that he was "flipping the bird". Whether you took offense depends on whether you were able to separate your interpretation of the gesture (or what you understand as a common western interpretation of the gesture) and allow for it's use in the culture photographed.

Mike

Mike

I totally agree, that's why I started out by saying the photo's need to be presented in context.

As for the rest, I was simply pointing out that although not relevent to this particular case, due to the photos being presented out of context, people need to be aware of what they are doing when they are outside their culture.

[MRRiley]

Mike

I totally agree, that's why I started out by saying the photo's need to be presented in context.

As for the rest, I was simply pointing out that although not relevent to this particular case, due to the photos being presented out of context, people need to be aware of what they are doing when they are outside their culture.

I agree completely Lowell.

Mike, you lost your bet with me I'm afraid. I didn't see any intent in the gesture but I did see the intent in the photograph.

[MRRiley]

Mike, you lost your bet with me I'm afraid. I didn't see any intent in the gesture but I did see the intent in the photograph.

I rarely win bets Gary... thats why I don't gamble. Just figure the law of averages is on my side in this case.

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Last edited by Damn Brit; 06-19-2009 at 12:06 PM. Reason: Corrected the spelling in my quote.

I rarely win bets Gary... thats why I don't gamble. Just figure the law of averages is on my side in this case.

Just out of interest Mike, was there a tagline with the image and if so, what was it?

[Blue]

HUH??? did something get lost in this post?

No, I was just pointing out to Gary that no one in this thread was criticizing the President for the photo. In fact, I like the photo.

No, I was just pointing out to Gary that no one in this thread was criticizing the President for the photo. In fact, I like the photo.

I didn't mention that the President was criticised in this thread but Mike mentioned in the thread starter that he was criticised for it. I was just pointing out that he's criticised for most things he does, I wasn't trying to start an argument.

[MRRiley]

Just out of interest Mike, was there a tagline with the image and if so, what was it?

Sorry Gary. The link to the photo at it's original location got messed up when I used the IMGWIDE tag. The url is:

The Week in Pictures: June 11 - 18 - #12 - msnbc.com

and the tagline was "Struggling to help the needy"

Mike

Thanks Mike. Actually, out of all the slides from that set, I found the little boy with the shadows of the toy guns the one that was offensive.

[MRRiley]

Thanks Mike. Actually, out of all the slides from that set, I found the little boy with the shadows of the toy guns the one that was offensive.

I wasnt even gonna bring that one up Gary, since it IS very clearly offensive and I would hope very disturbing to the average person.

The teacher/student one was sort of "eye of the beholder" territory and that is what I wanted to explore.

Mike

There's got to be a Palestinian version of Ken and Barbie.

[xjjohnno]

I get the impression some folk look for excuses to find offensive gestures where none were intended as a way of reinforcing their own prejudices.

[MRRiley]

Everyone has prejudices John, whether they admit it or not. Everyone reacts, at least initially, from "their gut" based on those prejudices. Of course everyone's gut is programmed differently to some extent based on the culture that they live in. And some prejudices, for instance, the fear of snakes, have been part of humanity for so long they have become almost genetic and are largely universal. Of course it's also true that, some, or even many people overcome their prejudices and ignore their guts, but on some level those prejudices are still present.

Again, I will say that, my whole point for initiating this debate was to raise the issue of photographs from one culture which contain elements which are offensive in a second culture. It is understandable if some people in the second culture may find the image offensive yet the photographer should not be held responsible if the viewer fails to understand and accept the cultural context which the photograph depicts.

Of course, the opposite scenario is often present. Contextually offensive photos are often mis-perceived outside of their cultural context...





Though I cannot confirm it, the first photo appears to depict several middle eastern children (of uncertain ethnic identity) giving the thumbs-up gesture. Most Americans would not take offense at this even though the gesture is considered offensive in the culture (presumably) depicted.

In the 2nd photo, which was clearly taken in Iraq, the soldier and the children all give the thumbs-up. Again, most or many Americans will not find this image offensive. However, in the cultural context, offense is clearly intended. Unfortunately, the soldier clearly does not understand that he is insulting the children and they are insulting him and the photographer right back.

I find offense in both of these photos because I understand their cultural context. Even children know and understand the offensive gestures of their culture. Offense was intended by the subjects in these photos (except for the witless soldier) so in this case, intellect trumps my gut reaction.

Mike

[Arpe]

The first thing I thought was that the teacher was holding the chalk between his index and thumb. Pretend you are doing that, and you see how that gesture comes naturally.

Same here. No offence taken from any of those. In fact I can't recall ever seeing a photo that offends me.