[marianne718]

I've told my family now that I will only shoot for them if they bring an SD card. I shoot jpg on their card and hand it off.

I believe the two grandchildren are different scenarios. Kid 1, you happened to be there and get some snaps. Kid 2 was a full blown session.

Do you have a different full time job?

MJB:

I had a full time (non photography) day job until I was laid off in March 2009, and have been working to ratchet up the photo work since then. The studio I'd been doing 2nd shooter work for has also fallen on hard times so most of my recent gigs are family affairs--bridal and baby showers, birthdays, anniveraries, and the like -- generated by referrals from one affair to the next.

As one of the earlier posters suggested, I have indeed become gun shy and no longer bring my camera to family and friends events, which is sad really. I love capturing and sharing these moments but, no doubt about it, I bristle when I begin to suspect someone is taking advantage of me. That's what these incidents felt like. At the same time, I'll do almost anything to avoid drama, hence the quick apology and refund.

I suppose I'll get over this eventually, when I've learned to effectively separate business arrangements from favors for friends. For the time being, I'll try to concentrate on the former and avoid the latter.

[a a i b]

Hello from another part of 718.

I don't have much to add but just thought I'd drop a note in support.

Whether or not these friendships can be saved, or whether they should, is not for me to say. Maybe, maybe not. Life goes on.

I can say though that you should not let these experiences discourage you from doing your work. I had a look at your portfolio and liked what I saw.

I have survived working for relatives a few times -- it certainly can be trying (e.g., I'm going to have to be up late tonight working on stuff for my MIL). It's great when they understand that your are working for them because you're good -- not because your cheap (free).

There are some people who simply can't wrap their heads around how much art and work go into successful photographs, singularly or in a series. These people may also be friends and relatives. It is important to skip doing work for people who do not, or cannot value it.

I've also found when you do favors for people, they forget the favor part and move on into the entitlement arena quickly. Conversely, people who've had to pay for services usually are more invested in valuing those services, though there are exceptions, of course.

You need people who value your vision. Start with yourself.

Good luck, and don't give up!

-- an architect in Brooklyn

[dragonfly]

Find another dentist, too.

This is the only reason that I read these forums- good advice.

Edit for recognition of good comma usage.

[Peter Zack]

As someone who does this for a living as well, I'm going to mirror a a i b's comments and offer a note of support. Doing work for friends is difficult and you have to be clear up front that it's how you earn your living and it's not free. When I know I'm going to be in that situation and know I'm never going to get paid, I bring my wife's small P&S.

I don't think it's constructive to repeat the correct responses you've gotten. I wish I had some great insight into repairing these relationships. I don't other than one suggestion. This is only offered if you really think it's worth salvaging these relationships.

You are clearly very articulate, so use that to your advantage. When you have some free time, sit down and write a letter, not an email and IMO not typed. An old fashioned, hand written letter. Of course use the computer to draft it (much faster) but if you want to mend these fences, you are going to have to eat some crow. Explain your situation again, where you life is going, the investment in time and equipment etc. Don't write it like an excuse but some explanation of your thinking at the time. Apologize what ever way you think will give you some peace with the situation.

Deliver the letters and hold your head high no matter which way the letters are received. They may help and they may not. Just know that you have done the best you can to cross the bridge. From that point on, it's up to them to repair the relationship. They are the ones who will have to live with their choices.

I suspect the MOB isn't going to budge. She clearly hired a Craiglist cheapo photographer and got what she paid for. Any pro would have adjusted the contract and charged for the early shots. Actually, any pro wouldn't have overlooked this and had this option available in their A La Carte price list.

Do the best you can to learn from this and also move on from it. If it were me, I wouldn't worry much about the neighbour, that really is her problem even if you were not clear about your charges up front. She knew darn well that you don't get a thing free for weddings.

The dentist is more of an issue in that you said you both can't avoid each other much. I'm reluctant to suggest this and only do so if the relationship matters enough. You may want to offer him something more for nothing as a one time only attempt at patching things up. The problem with this is that it amplifies the idea that photography has no value. So be careful how and what you offer if anything at all.

[George Lama]

+10 on Peter's response.

I can only emphasize that for future reference, regardless of who you do work for, always present yourself as a professional and hand them a contract with specifics. You can find samples online or we can offer you suggestions as to what to include, where to find them, etc.

Until they consider you a professional, this will continue happening. You certainly don't deserve to be going through this kind of grief.

[little laker]

When I know that I won't be paid for a shoot I don't even bring any camera along.

I've told my family now that I will only shoot for them if they bring an SD card. I shoot jpg on their card and hand it off.

That's another thing that I'd never do. You look even worst to them when the white balance isn't quite perfect, or they want 24"x36" enlargements only to discover that they're pixelated.
If I'm going to shoot a few snaps for free I'll grab a roll of C-41 process B&W film, then hand that to them. If something goes wrong, just say that it must have been a bad batch of film, and leave it at that.

[opfor]

As a former IT person who continuously had people asking for free help, I can associate with many of the examples that people have given to you so far.
Nothing can cause friction faster than money.
In the first example, the MOB sounds like she was trying to get something for nothing from the start. A cheap photog that didn't work out, and then; "We were asking you as a friend, not as a professional." in order to get you to bail them out and to act as a safety net.
In the second example, it sounds as if the implied "free lunch" was supposed to be the trade off for your pics. "How dare you to take advantage of their hospitality by wanting money?" Am I getting close?
In both situations, things could have been handled better, but your friends probably didn't want the subject of money to come up in the first place. You have to decide; if you help set up the problem, they were trying to use you by design, or if it was all just a mis-understanding from the start.
To cite an example that I experienced once; I had a friend who wanted help fixing his computer, after "we" fixed it he had another friend "help" him some more with his PC. When the further "help" caused serious problems, the "friend" wanted me to "pay" to have his hard drive replaced. (the second friend had accidentally introduced a virus with some hacked software that trashed the HD) I found out about the virus on the second visit when his wife let it slip that she was very upset about the software and the virus. I got up and walked out after explaining to her that I wasn't responsible for something that someone else had done and didn't appreciate their attempt of fleecing me for their misfortune. I don't think I ever spoke to them again.
You have to decide how much you want to try to save the friendships or if they are even worth the effort in trying to save them in the first place. As the saying goes; "There is nothing over-worked more than a free mule." Once you set the precedent that you will compromise your standards, it will become the expected norm by anyone who hears of it. Personally, I would stake out the moral high ground and be prepared to repel all boarders, wether they be friend or foe...:-)

---

Last edited by opfor; 04-06-2010 at 10:48 PM. Reason: typo

[marianne718]

I agree with the posters who suggest that perhaps the MOB "friendship" is probably not worth fretting over. This one should be easier for me to tick off as a lesson learned, and just let it go. (I learned much later that the bride and groom had hired a self-described "band photographer" who had never before shot a wedding.)

The dentist relationship, on the other hand, is a different thing entirely -- we've been friends since the age of 15 -- and something I need to work through somehow. I accept full responsibility for mis-managing his expectations and will seriously consider the best way to give it another go (although the idea of handing him my standard fees contract strikes me as presenting too high a risk of all-out nuclear war.) Maybe a letter, maybe just a quiet conversation, certainly another apology and then we'll see what happens.

Again, I want to thank everyone for their support and input--even the brutally frank comments, perhaps especially the brutally frank comments--which helped me put these situations into the proper perspective. This posting thing turned out to be more theraputic than I expected.

[ivoire]

They wanted your work, so the quality and your ability is not an issue. Business is business regardless of who you conduct it with. What's done is done, repair it if possible, if not, let it go and move on. No matter who your client is, discuss their expectations, state your rates and what you will provide in writing and collect a percentage of your fee before doing any actual work. If you and a client can not agree on terms, politely decline and walk away from the job. The info here should help you in the future.

Freelance Fees Guide: Photography

[cwood]

In scenario 1
If someone says "hey, can you shoot this for me" and you say "yes"... the contract is basically sealed. You will not be able to force money out of that person. Maybe they recognize the value and want to pay you anyway but even asking for money AFTER you have said yes is bad for business. At the very least your answer needs to be "yes" followed by a VERY fast "BUT..." and then a good explanation of YOUR expectations

In scenario 2
Since you asked to do the photo shoot you set yourself up. If you say "can I take your picture" you are offering to do it for free. If you had said "I can offer you a great deal if you want some pictures" then the intention would have been obvious.

there was a high-school kid selling chocolate bars at my door the other day. If he had said "do you want a chocolate bar" I would have said "Yes" then taken one and closed the door. Instead he explained that he was fundraising and selling chocolate bars for $5 each. Never forget that photography is a product.

I ALWAYS take my good camera to wedding of friends and family. If someone wants a picture they can have it for free. It is my gift as the friend/family. If they called me as in your first scenario with you I would have either done it for free, not done it at all or more likely explained that they were asking me as a professional - and since it was a last minute panic thing - rather than charge for my time I would be selling the photos for $5 each.

The bottom line is that you haven't just ruined friendships but ruined potential revenue streams. Photographers make a big chunk of their income through referrals. Rather than make the $7 you did selling the photos you might have landed a $1000 wedding for next summer.

I did a "free" shoot for a good friend a couple of weeks ago as a baby present. I used similar language to what you used in scenario #2. In the end they insisted on paying me a fair fee AND they have sent me more business. Even if they hadn't paid me anything I was more than happy because it was meant to be a gift (I had to go buy them something else after they paid me ) and I made more good contacts through my efforts.

[RioRico]

In my past life I was a computer geek. Excuse me, software engineer. Except that I also soldered stuff together, like my first micro, and robots, and odd devices. I did well enough at geeking that I retired very young. I haven't been encumbered by employment since 1985 or so.

My computer geek friends and I were always at each others' homes, tuning up systems. Alex and Tom and Laurel would be on my doorstep -- NERD INVASION! We swapped cards and ROMs and discs and databases, scrutinized code and hex dumps, stayed long hours. Fun fun fun.

My other (also a SE) and I had friends who weren't geeks. Straight people. And some whom we'd visit would ask, "Can you help me with my PC?" and I always chipped in. But then there was a best friend's husband, a lawyer soon to be a federal judge, who asked for help constantly. Not just emergencies -- DB reindexing, data merges, template redesigns, etc. Finally I asked if he wanted to retain me as a consultant. Result: end of friendship. Haven't heard from them since 1990.

Had a couple other similar situations, not involving lawyers, just 'friends' who want pro-level services for free. Do I put on my consultant's cap and offer honest work for honest pay? Do I lie and say, "Wow, I'm really rusty now, you'd better ask someone who's up to date" ?? Do I just write them off as leeches?

You have to decide what your time and effort are worth, what your relationships are worth, your independence, etc. Are you in this for fun / art, money, pro bono publico, part of a bigger mission, or what? If you're a business, BE a business. Join the Chamber of Commerce and Rotary, get cards printed, let it be known that you're a business not a duffer and you offer professional services at competitive rates. Not everyone with a hammer is a carpenter; not everyone with a camera is a photographer.

[kunaalbhasin]

It's only about money here. You shoud not mix business and friendship, or if you have to do so, you should be clear from the beginning and say your friends you need to earn money from your work, they can understand.
Or do it gracefully because they are friends but dont provide them their own photos through paying tricks (printing from this website where you get commissions).

[MJB DIGITAL]

MJB:

I had a full time (non photography) day job until I was laid off in March 2009, and have been working to ratchet up the photo work since then. The studio I'd been doing 2nd shooter work for has also fallen on hard times so most of my recent gigs are family affairs--bridal and baby showers, birthdays, anniveraries, and the like -- generated by referrals from one affair to the next.

As one of the earlier posters suggested, I have indeed become gun shy and no longer bring my camera to family and friends events, which is sad really. I love capturing and sharing these moments but, no doubt about it, I bristle when I begin to suspect someone is taking advantage of me. That's what these incidents felt like. At the same time, I'll do almost anything to avoid drama, hence the quick apology and refund.

I suppose I'll get over this eventually, when I've learned to effectively separate business arrangements from favors for friends. For the time being, I'll try to concentrate on the former and avoid the latter.

OK let's get this straight.

1) You are laid off
2) You have skill in a craft that has value (great value in some cases)
3) You are getting inquiries to perform your craft that has value, as a service.
4) You are very accommodating to your friends and charging them pennies for photos.
5) They are mad because you aren't providing the fruit of your study and labor for free.

I can understand that in the scenario where you offered to shoot, they might be peeved, but it's not like you vandalized anything or stole from them. Nothing in their life has changed except that they haven't gotten something for free.

I carry some kind of snobby attitude where I don't want anything that costs $0.00. In my opinion, something that is free has $0.00 value, so why would I want it?

[MJB DIGITAL]

When I know that I won't be paid for a shoot I don't even bring any camera along.


That's another thing that I'd never do. You look even worst to them when the white balance isn't quite perfect, or they want 24"x36" enlargements only to discover that they're pixelated.
If I'm going to shoot a few snaps for free I'll grab a roll of C-41 process B&W film, then hand that to them. If something goes wrong, just say that it must have been a bad batch of film, and leave it at that.

I would never offer that option to a client. But generally if my family wants me to shoot Christmas morning or Labor Day, they just want snaps anyway. I can shoot well enough that they are getting something better than they would have otherwise...

[shawnxji]

A lot of good advice has been given, I just want to re-assure you that you don't have to feel awkward or timid to make it clear about the payment upfront when it comes to your friends and families, as long as you do it in a way that's honest, candid, and respectful. They'll understand, as long as it's a dedicated shooting session and that the price is reasonable (I think you do charge very reasonably).