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02-15-2012, 10:39 AM   #166
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
And you don't even provide a link to the source which is really bad practice ...
I thought I include the title in the pic, u can find it everywhere, youtube, vimeo, or zacuto website
The Great Camera Shootout 2011: SCCE ~ Episode One | Zacuto USA

02-15-2012, 10:59 AM   #167
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Samuel,

there's no way to rate any (Canon) DSLR to have 11 usuable stops in video mode. That's just wishful thinking, unfortunately wide spread though. 5DmkII has a max of 11.5 stops DR, in STILLS mode, only at ISO 100!
If you take a look at Zacuto's method to rate dynamic range in that test, you'll see that it's far from being USUABLE dynamic range. Flat picture profiles won't help as they only increase UNUSABLE DR, at the expense of midtone detail and colors. You can't reveal what isn't there. I've shot with a lot of different video DSLRs and wouldn't rate any higher than 7-9 usuable stops, period.

Using the GH2 with latest hacks, the resolution is stunning, but I hate Pannys colors and GH2's dynamic range. The guy who hacked it is a Pentax lover and already stated that if K 01 uses similar firmware coding as K-5 he's positive to hack it for video improvements. My fingers are crossed for sure, but I hope for clean HDMI out recording anyway. Pentax' in camera SR is a gift from above for shooting video with legacy primes.
02-15-2012, 11:45 AM   #168
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QuoteOriginally posted by Daemos Quote
I hope the K-01 is good as the cost of good lenses for the GH2 for video shooting is very cost prohibitive...where vintage pentax lenses are abundant and affordable

It's pretty easy to get a nice fast k mount 35mm prime (~50mm eq) where it's expensive to get a nice fast 4/3rds 25mm prime
Or you could use the lower cost 20mm f1.7 (40mm eqiv) that is very sharp wide open compared to the Pentax lenses that are not.

Panasonic G 20 mm f/1.7 ASPH.
Image resolution :


Pentax smc FA 31 mm f/1.8 AL
. Image resolution :


The new Samyang 24 mm f/1.4 ED AS UMC
Image resolution :


Sigma 30 mm f/1.4 EX DC HSM
Image resolution :


Panasonic Leica DG SUMMILUX 25 mm f/1.4 ASPH.
Image resolution :


Voigtlander Nokton 25 mm f/0.95
Image resolution :
02-15-2012, 12:18 PM   #169
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QuoteOriginally posted by karl79 Quote
Samuel,

there's no way to rate any (Canon) DSLR to have 11 usuable stops in video mode. That's just wishful thinking, unfortunately wide spread though. 5DmkII has a max of 11.5 stops DR, in STILLS mode, only at ISO 100!
If you take a look at Zacuto's method to rate dynamic range in that test, you'll see that it's far from being USUABLE dynamic range. Flat picture profiles won't help as they only increase UNUSABLE DR, at the expense of midtone detail and colors. You can't reveal what isn't there. I've shot with a lot of different video DSLRs and wouldn't rate any higher than 7-9 usuable stops, period.

Using the GH2 with latest hacks, the resolution is stunning, but I hate Pannys colors and GH2's dynamic range. The guy who hacked it is a Pentax lover and already stated that if K 01 uses similar firmware coding as K-5 he's positive to hack it for video improvements. My fingers are crossed for sure, but I hope for clean HDMI out recording anyway. Pentax' in camera SR is a gift from above for shooting video with legacy primes.
it depends on how you count stops, and what you consider "usable"

this chart (shot with my 550D and Flaat_4) works in 1/3 stops, please count the lines and tell me how many stops of DR you see there (I'd say a bit over 12, but I'm not sure that's the correct way of counting)


and as for usable...
from this test (go to 1:35 - shot at ISO 100 in daylight - no NR in post) all that DR seems definitely usable to me:
Flaat video tests on Vimeo

02-15-2012, 04:23 PM   #170
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samuel H Quote
@falconeye: given who ran those tests, given how much time and money they spent doing so, and given that they got an emmy for the 2010 edition of that "documentary", I'd trust that they did the best that could be done, or very close to that

my understanding is that they measured how much of the DR captured by the sensor could actually be saved when recording in video mode
Ok, I looked at the source now.

And I yell you that ... Cool and bold doesn't impress me. I am a physicist and if such things would impress me church would have won over physics easily

Actually, this test is seriously underdocumented. They don't publish their testing methodology and the results are completely useless. Most probably, they are arbitrary because all they measured was the difference in tone curve they set up in the various cameras. In the video, I can see shocking differences in tone curves used, e.g., look at the Kodak test. I tell you this being somebody who measured and published DR figures for some sensors before eventually DxO did it with close results.

As a matter of fact, you can't run such test w/o a deep understanding of what's going on at the technical level. This is why DxO dynamic range figures matter and DPReview's don't. Like Zacuto, DPR doesn't really understand what factors influence DR and how.

At the end of the day, DR in video is fully determined by the subsampling sparsity factor, full well capacity and readout noise. The sparsity factor can be determined independently if it isn't public. The DR properties as discussed in the Zacuto video though are almost entirely determined by what you can do to the camera's tone curve.
02-15-2012, 05:15 PM   #171
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The shootout is in interesting territory...i.e. the intersection of motion picture arts and sciences. Hence its recognition by the Academy.

The proper way to view the results of the shootout is projected on screen at the highest fidelity possible. That is to say, on a high-quality movie screen at 4K resolution (which is the highest resolution at which the results have been made available). The cinematography group at my school has been in talks with Zacuto to project the shootouts as such (I am hopeful that it will happen).

Although some of the methodologies can isolate specific variables, it is really the sum of all of the variables that gives any camera / filmstock its overall character. Dynamic range, of course, is just one of these variables. Compressed web videos and dvds / blue ray discs can't possibly do the images justice.

The choice to use a certain film stock or camera often comes down to the cinematographer / director simply responding emotionally to the medium of choice, as augmented by whatever filtration they choose to use. It is nice to see tests, but I don't believe there is any set of numbers that can describe the emotional effect that viewing an image will have on a person.

I have often heard people say they dislike the "harsh" or "plasticky" look of certain cameras, or that they like the "gentle," "magical," or "filmic" look of others.
02-15-2012, 05:46 PM   #172
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02-15-2012, 05:48 PM   #173
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QuoteOriginally posted by fuent104 Quote
The shootout is in interesting territory...i.e. the intersection of motion picture arts and sciences. Hence its recognition by the Academy.
You apply far too much magic to what eventually is ... science and technology ...

But never mind, progress is brought to you by those who are not confused by all this magic.

The most funny part on the Zacuto site is that they call it the "most scientific" comparison. They simulate scientists as they see them in their movies. Very funny

Scientific tests should be run by scientists, not artists. This is what I like with DxO.

02-15-2012, 06:13 PM   #174
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
You apply far too much magic to what eventually is ... science and technology ...

But never mind, progress is brought to you by those who are not confused by all this magic.

The most funny part on the Zacuto site is that they call it the "most scientific" comparison. They simulate scientists as they see them in their movies. Very funny

Scientific tests should be run by scientists, not artists. This is what I like with DxO.
The tools are created through the use of science, of course. The best progress, however, is brought to me buy people who not only are not confused by the magic, but who know how to use science and technology to achieve "magical" results. In motion picture imaging, the people who created products such as Steadicam, RED, KINO flourescent lighting, etc., were driven not by the pure pursuit of science and technology, but by their visions of how new tools could be used to achieve the results they desired. I use the term "magic" because it is a succinct way of summarizing the effects of the various properties of any given motion picture imaging system, as well as the content presented within the moving image.

I enjoy perusing DxO, although I do not have a firm grasp of all of the information they present.

Zacuto calling their comparisons the "most scientific" may not be saying much, but it may actually be correct. I don't know of any other comprehensive test that compares motion picture imaging systems to other motion picture imaging systems. Thus, Zacuto's may be the most scientific by default. I'd agree that it may not hold up to strict scientific scrutiny, but I don't know of any other option for what Zacuto offers.

With that being said, I think the motion picture world has been quite grateful that Zacuto, Robert Primes, et al. have taken the time to present the comparisons they have done.

If there are some suggestions you could make for improvements for Zacuto's next shootout, I would not be surprised if they would like to hear your input. They seem to be at least attempting to offer the best shootouts they can for the viewer.
02-15-2012, 07:27 PM   #175
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QuoteOriginally posted by fuent104 Quote

If there are some suggestions you could make for improvements for Zacuto's next shootout, I would not be surprised if they would like to hear your input. They seem to be at least attempting to offer the best shootouts they can for the viewer.
I would certainly be happy to provide input to them. But I would need them to document what they actually did first.

Moreover, I don't criticize everything they did. I only criticize that they call what most likely was a tone curve test a comparison of dynamic range of cameras. I don't even criticize the test, just what they call it. btw, if you listen to the movie, quite a few expressed surprise about the results...
02-15-2012, 07:38 PM   #176
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I would certainly be happy to provide input to them. But I would need them to document what they actually did first.

Moreover, I don't criticize everything they did. I only criticize that they call what most likely was a tone curve test a comparison of dynamic range of cameras. I don't even criticize the test, just what they call it. btw, if you listen to the movie, quite a few expressed surprise about the results...
X2 I have NO idea how they properly measured DR...nor their testing methods...there are too many variables that they left out.
02-15-2012, 08:05 PM   #177
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
Or you could use the lower cost 20mm f1.7 (40mm eqiv) that is very sharp wide open compared to the Pentax lenses that are not.
Still more expensive than vintage pentax lenses

although I suppose you could get an adapter for the 4/3rds system
02-15-2012, 09:07 PM   #178
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QuoteOriginally posted by Daemos Quote
X2 I have NO idea how they properly measured DR...nor their testing methods...there are too many variables that they left out.
I wonder if this information is available in the full length versions, i.e. maybe they are not making the full shootouts available online.

Either way, I hope their shootouts are the beginning of something long-lasting. There is no place to go but up.
02-16-2012, 11:34 AM   #179
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
At the end of the day, DR in video is fully determined by the subsampling sparsity factor, full well capacity and readout noise. The sparsity factor can be determined independently if it isn't public. The DR properties as discussed in the Zacuto video though are almost entirely determined by what you can do to the camera's tone curve.
well, I have to say... I don't aggree with what you're saying

for a start, I don't know if you watched the full shootout and read the background info, but they asked the manufacturer of each camera to send a technician, who was the one operating the camera in the tests - the artists were there designing the tests, so that they make sense and tell them what they want to know, but the cameras were operated by technicians sent by the manufacturer (in case the manufacturer declined the offer, they put an experienced shooter in place)

and then: I'm not sure what you're complaining about in the DR tests in particular

what I care about is this: what's the brightness difference between the brightest highlights and the darkest shadows that can be recorded at the same time, without clipping at either end, in video mode, with each camera?

you're right that this depends mostly on what you can do with the tone curve, not so much on what the sensor can capture

but, after having used some of these cameras, I'd argue that what the sensor can capture is completely irrelevant: all I care is what ends up in the footage, and that seems to depend even more what you can do with tone curves than on full well capacity, etc (which is also important, of course)

it must be what they care about too, since that is what they seem to have tested

I'd call that "DR in video mode"
02-16-2012, 04:29 PM   #180
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samuel H Quote
they asked the manufacturer of each camera to send a technician
...
all I care is what ends up in the footage, and that seems to depend even more what you can do with tone curves than on full well capacity, etc
I've read the part about the technician but it doesn't help.

The point you're making is valid. This is why I said I don't take issue with the test, only that they call it a DR test.

If I follow your line of argument, every firmware release or minor product update could reshuffle the table. No deeper understanding about the technical capabilities could be reached.

This is because the Zacuto test tested software abilities more than hardware abilities.

This is also why a true test of sensor DR in video mode is my primary concern. And Zacuto failed to do one. Moreover, with a kind of deeper bitdepth in video (kind of raw video), the in-camera tone curves become irrelevant and hardware abilities are what matters then.
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