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02-03-2012, 12:02 PM   #31
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02-03-2012, 12:02 PM   #32
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In consideration, most of us are seeing it (and it's features and limitations support this) as a video camera.
02-03-2012, 12:04 PM - 1 Like   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Charles Hueter Quote
Leica X1
Sigma DP1 & DP2
Ricoh GRD & GXR
Samsung TL500
Panasonic LX5
Olympus ZX-1
Thousands upon thousands of endlessly iterated point & shoots

What would you call them?

I successfully shot LCD-only compacts for several years. Though I'd prefer some kind of integrated eye-isolating viewfinder, I can get by without one.

monochrome's test covers my biggest concern with the K-01: whether the camera of that weight can be held comfortably for several minutes at a time while shooting. I'm skeptical but open to being surprised.

Especially if it means getting a cutting-edge sensor inside a K-mount for less than $1,000!
  1. Experiment! It wasn't comfortable, but then I changed eyes from right to left and that wasn't comfortable either, at first. Now it feels natural.
  2. Do you actually hold a VF to your eye for seven minutes uninterrupted? I don't. I can't speak for pros (wedding, say) but I take a shot a minute, tops, and compose for a few seconds, unless its extreme telephoto or macro and those are supported shots.
Learning to shoot LCD might really work well for eyeglass wearing, astigmatic glaucoma sufferers.

Its just change. Things change all the time. I bet we can make this work for certain uses and use our dSLR's for their best uses.

And don't forget, this is a VIDEO camera that also can take great stills. Its the VIDEO!!

Last edited by monochrome; 02-03-2012 at 03:32 PM.
02-03-2012, 12:12 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by m8o Quote
To this, I can't agree.

With a camera the cost of the K-01, and with the sensor and other specs of the caliber of the K-01, I expect it to be a "good at anything" camera. I was illustrating what I identified as a major limitation in its capability due to its "packaging" given what I look for in a camera at the cost and seeming capability of the K-01.

I say this because I WANT to buy this camera. With the new processing engine it's touted to be able have better 'quality' than the K-5. I WANT to have something that's killer and fits into my pocket. And I WANT it to serve my every purpose. I'm seeing a place it can't. I imagine I'm not taking a hike with it and my long lenses when I do so sans monopod (I never hike w/a tripod).
I understand where you are going and I think you should try some experiments like mine above. Pentax has a winner here.

I will observe that I only have a K10D with grip and some larger film bodies, plus an XA and an A40.

Sometimes I don't want a bag full of camera so I take a small one. Sometimes on those trips I wish I had the big stuff. (I can think of a fledgling hawk 30 feet up a tree that I just can't crop from the A40 file).

Oh well. The A40 still does what it does very well.

02-03-2012, 12:47 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by marosari00 Quote
That's great to see; will click and read it later once done/w work. Tho what I'm referring to is something that's a -lot- bigger.
02-03-2012, 12:53 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I understand where you are going and I think you should try some experiments like mine above. Pentax has a winner here. ...
I will. But I'm referring to about a +10lb (12lb-ish?) camera + lens + TC package. The technique I illustrate (actually, my modification on it) is what's necessary to use to do what I cite in my OP. I've already tried focusing on my K-5 in LV mode, and the body is so far forward the lens is no longer supported.

Last edited by m8o; 02-03-2012 at 01:24 PM.
02-03-2012, 02:39 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by m8o Quote
I will. But I'm referring to about a +10lb (12lb-ish?) camera + lens + TC package. The technique I illustrate (actually, my modification on it) is what's necessary to use to do what I cite in my OP. I've already tried focusing on my K-5 in LV mode, and the body is so far forward the lens is no longer supported.
I wish I still had the Tak 500/4.5 to mount to the MESuper. It would be fun to try your technique modded to view the film holder "LCD"

I actually did write your technique in my journal for 200/2.5 +DSLR +grip. I often have some trouble staying on subject hand held. Learning every day.
02-03-2012, 02:59 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Charles Hueter Quote
Leica X1
Sigma DP1 & DP2
Ricoh GRD & GXR
Samsung TL500
Panasonic LX5
Olympus ZX-1
Thousands upon thousands of endlessly iterated point & shoots

What would you call them?

I successfully shot LCD-only compacts for several years. Though I'd prefer some kind of integrated eye-isolating viewfinder, I can get by without one.

monochrome's test covers my biggest concern with the K-01: whether the camera of that weight can be held comfortably for several minutes at a time while shooting. I'm skeptical but open to being surprised.

Especially if it means getting a cutting-edge sensor inside a K-mount for less than $1,000!
Bring them down to Texas and I will call them the same thing you will on the 4th of July....worthless. That's what Mrs Rupert called her Panny just before it went in the river, and she never has uttered one word of regret. You can spin it, twist it, deny it, or ignore it, but a viewfinder is a wonderful thing in the bright sun. You just can't get around it.

Best Regards!

02-03-2012, 03:05 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I wish I still had the Tak 500/4.5 to mount to the MESuper. It would be fun to try your technique modded to view the film holder "LCD"

I actually did write your technique in my journal for 200/2.5 +DSLR +grip. I often have some trouble staying on subject hand held. Learning every day.
My modification on the technique shown, where the shooter's left hand is wrapping the top of the right forearm, is ...

- Raise your arms up like you're leaning on /over a chest-high fence...
- Bring your hands towards and past each other if not already that way
- my right arm is in-front of my left arm
- my left hand wraps and clutches the outside of the right bicep & triceps,
- and right wrist is resting-on and above my left forearm, resting just above your watch (assuming you wear one) on your left wrist.
- I'm standing slightly sideways with right leg further back than my left leg.
- My left elbow is in-front of me almost pointing at my subject, with lens bracket's L resting on the elbow.

I find this to create a more intertwined self-locking of the two arms than pictured (but I developed it after seeing that picture).

It probably goes w/o saying but requires the camera + lens be doing auto-focus.

Last edited by m8o; 02-03-2012 at 03:29 PM.
02-03-2012, 03:27 PM   #40
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I like my GF2 with the 20mm pancake; I tried putting on my 50-135 with an adapter but it felt a bit awkward. Something I might grow into, perhaps, but the touch-screen focus selector is a bit unwieldy with such a small body. Not to mention that to hold a lens with a small body far enough away from my eyes to focus on gets a bit clumsy as well!
02-03-2012, 03:32 PM   #41
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Thanks very much - good stuff. Your foot position recalls what I was taught for monopod technique. Hell, its basic athletic training.

I was an English major but my buddy was an engineer - all about bracing and cross-directional forces.

For short MF lenses in low light at low ISO it could be used with hyperfocal distance <g>

As an aside, I have advanced glaucoma and significant loss of perihperal visual acuity. It is challenging to see the entire frame in the VF (the LED's and other border info). I wear eyeglasses. If I can make LiveView work this will be a lot more fun.

I refuse to give up, so I experiment a lot. Sometimes the joy of just taking ANY picture clouds my detachment and ability to judge utility.

QuoteOriginally posted by m8o Quote
My modification on the technique shown, where the shooter's left hand is wrapping the top of the right forearm, is ...

- Raise your arms up like you're leaning on /over a chest-high fence...
- Bring your hands towards and past each other if not already that way
- my left hand wraps and clutches the outside of the right bicep & triceps,
- and right wrist is resting-on and above my left forearm, resting just above your watch (assuming you wear one) on your left wrist.
- I'm standing slightly sideways with right leg further back than my left leg.
- My left elbow is in-front of me almost pointing at my subject, with lens bracket's L resting on the elbow.

I find this to create a more intertwined self-locking of the two arms than pictured (but I developed it after seeing that picture).

It probably goes w/o saying but requires the camera + lens be doing auto-focus.
02-05-2012, 10:30 AM   #42
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Not to beat a dead horse, but hey, just remembered so I will anyway...

I actually have experience with what it would be like using the K-01 with a big heavy lens on the front for an extended period of time. It's in reference to this outing / event... Furthur - m8ofoto's Photos
...And that's with a lens less than a 1/2 the weight of what I was referring to in the OP...

The first few dozen photos were taken with the viewfinder and my modified grip shown in the OP. I wasn't getting the best hitrate on my focus. Many of those photos didn't make it to the gallery; some I left in as they had a certain 'artistic quality' added by the otherwise missed focus.

So I switched to using Liveview, and focus hitrate went-up by an order of magnitude. So after the first few dozen images in that gallery they were mostly taken in a manner the K-01 will mandate photos be taken; by holding the camera up and away from my eyes, and holding the lens & camera up with outstretched arms. And I'll tell you, holding the camera+lens up (Sigma 70-200/2.8 HSM) away from my head was definitely getting old by the end of the concert. Good thing I'm a sizable relatively strong guy. But considering a 300/2.8 + TC (1.4x or 2x) is about twice the weight of that ... I probably wouldn't have lasted. As a matter of fact by photo 129, I switched out the long zoom and put the FA 50/1.4 on instead, both to get wider angle photos and to give my shoulders and biceps a break.

...so yes, I'll agree the K-01 will definitely mandate tripod / monopod usage with a big lens attached if one needs to spend an appreciable amount of time taking pictures. But my issue was/is this is not alway going to be possible or desired given the circumstances. There's what I mentioned in my OP and follow-ups as a circumstance when it's not desired. And here's another case, but where it's not possible. I'm not permitted for example to walk-in with my monopod to a festival as the monopod essentially has a spear on the end of it if you take the removable rubber foot off it; so one has to use their camera + long lens freehand. Now lift-up a 6 - 12 lb weight one or more feet away from your eyes, hold it there perfectly still for 10 - 30 seconds, and do it 100 - 300 times.

Last edited by m8o; 02-05-2012 at 10:45 AM.
02-05-2012, 07:23 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
  1. Experiment! It wasn't comfortable, but then I changed eyes from right to left and that wasn't comfortable either, at first. Now it feels natural.
  2. Do you actually hold a VF to your eye for seven minutes uninterrupted? I don't. I can't speak for pros (wedding, say) but I take a shot a minute, tops, and compose for a few seconds, unless its extreme telephoto or macro and those are supported shots.
Learning to shoot LCD might really work well for eyeglass wearing, astigmatic glaucoma sufferers.

Its just change. Things change all the time. I bet we can make this work for certain uses and use our dSLR's for their best uses.

And don't forget, this is a VIDEO camera that also can take great stills. Its the VIDEO!!
I'll give it a shot over the next few weeks. I have a K-x so I can outfit it in a way that'll weigh similarly to a K-01. The more substantial grip might color my impression one way or another, but it's worth experimenting.

I wear glasses to see distances clearly and they get in the way of my viewfinder usage more often than not, so LCD-only is a bit of a bonus.

Video's nice but I'm here for the stills.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
Bring them down to Texas and I will call them the same thing you will on the 4th of July....worthless. That's what Mrs Rupert called her Panny just before it went in the river, and she never has uttered one word of regret. You can spin it, twist it, deny it, or ignore it, but a viewfinder is a wonderful thing in the bright sun. You just can't get around it.

Best Regards!
Since I'm in Austin, that won't be too far of a drive.

Like I said, I enjoy a good viewfinder. I have to bite my tongue when friends and family try to use my DSLRs as point and shoot cameras. It's all they've ever known and it takes them a solid moment to figure out how to see through them. While "worthless" seems too dismissive of the vast majority of image-creating devices the rest of the world calls cameras, believe me, I get your point.

QuoteOriginally posted by m8o Quote
So I switched to using Liveview, and focus hitrate went-up by an order of magnitude. So after the first few dozen images in that gallery they were mostly taken in a manner the K-01 will mandate photos be taken; by holding the camera up and away from my eyes, and holding the lens & camera up with outstretched arms. And I'll tell you, holding the camera+lens up (Sigma 70-200/2.8 HSM) away from my head was definitely getting old by the end of the concert. Good thing I'm a sizable relatively strong guy. But considering a 300/2.8 + TC (1.4x or 2x) is about twice the weight of that ... I probably wouldn't have lasted. As a matter of fact by photo 129, I switched out the long zoom and put the FA 50/1.4 on instead, both to get wider angle photos and to give my shoulders and biceps a break.

...so yes, I'll agree the K-01 will definitely mandate tripod / monopod usage with a big lens attached if one needs to spend an appreciable amount of time taking pictures. But my issue was/is this is not alway going to be possible or desired given the circumstances. There's what I mentioned in my OP and follow-ups as a circumstance when it's not desired. And here's another case, but where it's not possible. I'm not permitted for example to walk-in with my monopod to a festival as the monopod essentially has a spear on the end of it if you take the removable rubber foot off it; so one has to use their camera + long lens freehand. Now lift-up a 6 - 12 lb weight one or more feet away from your eyes, hold it there perfectly still for 10 - 30 seconds, and do it 100 - 300 times.
Yeah, not pleasant. I once carried a K20D with a DA 200/2.8 and battery grip for a full day of concert shooting. Comfortable at the time, but my arms were tired by midnight. No camera will be great at doing everything and even with modified grips, stances, and support the K-01 may never be well-suited for highly mobile long telephoto shooting.
02-05-2012, 08:38 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by m8o Quote
To this, I can't agree.

With a camera the cost of the K-01, and with the sensor and other specs of the caliber of the K-01, I expect it to be a "good at anything" camera. I was illustrating what I identified as a major limitation in its capability due to its "packaging" given what I look for in a camera at the cost and seeming capability of the K-01.

I say this because I WANT to buy this camera. With the new processing engine it's touted to be able have better 'quality' than the K-5. I WANT to have something that's killer and fits into my pocket. And I WANT it to serve my every purpose. I'm seeing a place it can't. I imagine I'm not taking a hike with it and my long lenses when I do so sans monopod (I never hike w/a tripod).
Patience, young Padawan. The updates to the K-5 and K-r are right around the corner and will have the improvements and the eyehole thingy that you want. This is not the camera that you are looking for.
02-05-2012, 09:12 PM   #45
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@m8o @Charles; Now that I've calmed down a bit so that I can separate the reasoning commenters from the trolling naysayers I agree this camera is ill-suited to certain uses (just as a Nex or X-Pro1 isn't suited to everything and everyone). I tried my MESuper experiment with a K200/2.5 today (my heaviest lens) and I won't be using that lens for very long with a K-01. I expect it will do fine for me on a casual hike and for certain intentional photography uses and perhaps with a DA55~300.

I'm not a pro. I don't think I'll ever shoot 500 images in a day. My cameras aren't tools as they are for a professional - they are elements of a hobby that I pursue with enthusiasm, and they are the hobby itself. To a certain degree making good, printable images with this camera is taking on the flavor of a friendly personal challenge. Maybe I can actually demonstrate to the Forum something new (I doubt it, but I had never seen m8o's technique illustrated before and no none else has postulated my experiment) - that would be fun, too!!

I do wish some Forum members would think about what they claim before they post it. The camera won't be useless. Pentax isn't stupid. I imagine the images will be quite good. The use of video might have some value in my house. I have a Tilley hat for bright sunny days.

My wife would like to share my hobby but has never been comfortable using an SLR (KX, MESuper) or dSLR (Oly E-20N, K10D) in our 30+ years together. Her several dozen photo albums are filled with prints taken with an XA and then a succession of Canon P&S film cameras. I gave her an A40 a couple years ago (decent compact with many manual controls) that she actually uses. She thinks she might like this camera and to try using some of my lenses. I don't expect to start doing needlepoint.

What on earth will be wrong with that? How did Pentax err making this camera?

We in this community (and the others where members seem to sneer at anything but what they have) should think as you have done about what this camera is intended to do and discuss whether it will do that well, and what it really isn't intended for, and accept that.

Last edited by monochrome; 02-06-2012 at 07:40 AM.
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