Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
02-03-2012, 04:45 PM   #136
Pentaxian
hinman's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Fremont, CA
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,427
QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
No anger. I just want to point out that legacy lens support is irrelevant. Fuji has NONE and it is going to out sell the Pentax at 2x the price. Both M4/3 and X-mount will out sell K-mount this year.

Pentax forced one of the best lens designers in the business into retirement last year, but the guy who gave us the Q probably still has a job..... Fuji is going after Leica and Pentax is trying to take on Fisher-Price.
Well said about the Q ...
Hin

02-03-2012, 04:46 PM   #137
Pentaxian
redrockcoulee's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Medicine Hat
Posts: 2,135
I think the K-01 will do better in the big box stores than to the hard core gear heads. Expect a larger volume of sales than the nay sayers are predicting. Not the camera for me but then neither is the X100 (which I have used and enjoyed) or the X Pro 1. The best is that both companies are producing products that are not only different from the regular offerings but also different from each other. Why does there need to be only one type of product for all of us. By the way Fuji has also introduced a couple of medium format film cameras in the last couple of years.
If sales are succussful for the K-01 it will not only give a larger base for the dslrs but also make all the future gains in AF and flash less expensive per unit for the cameras that we want (whatever that may be as each of us most likely has a different dream camera).

So some one coming in from point and shoots can move up to a camera that is some what similar to what they use now, with the knowledge that if they have any old Pentax lenses in the family or think they may advance to a dSRL and use some of the same lenses. How is that a bad thing. Obviously a different market segment than the Fuji or the 645D for that matter. And where is it written that Pentax is only allowed so many models produced?

One the other hand if down the road this type of camera proves to be great for video (not sure about the audio inputs) it makes a good second camera for those who want to shoot video but also use their existing camera. Like those with K10D for example who would like video but not willing to move to the K5 just for it. Same lenses different strengths. Seems good to me. But then I never figured out those who seem to buy two of each generation of camera anyways.
02-03-2012, 04:57 PM - 1 Like   #138
Pentaxian
konraDarnok's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Photos: Albums
Posts: 962
So buy a Fuji. People with this much pent up emotion invested in consumer product are not well adjusted. As a topic, this is not worth 10 pages.
02-03-2012, 05:06 PM   #139
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: 5th floor
Posts: 1,328
QuoteOriginally posted by Raffwal Quote
Sorry my friend, but here I have to disagree. A new mount and shorter flange distance is positive as such, but I don't think that would've been the right thing for Pentax to do. 4/3 and NEX have more or less already divided the market between them + some high end gear such as the new Fuji have a small place for them. If Pentax made a NEX like new mount, it would be a me-too product with little to stand out. Coming this late to the game, I think their only hope is to get support from earlier Pentax users. Release a new incompatible mount and most K mount users might as well go NEX since nothing binds them to the new mount. It's like saying 645D is an upgrade option for Pentax APS-C DSLR users. It's not, it's a completely different system.

Now what might have been interesting is Pentax joining the 4/3 companies with high quality WR bodies and lenses, but that's another story.
Alright. That's it. I am canceling the Prague trip!

Just kidding of course.

But seriously, I would say that you line of reasoning is rather a good observation, based on what this camera has and does not have. Yet, I still do question that particular strategy, and as a business model, I am not sure how effective it will be - time will only tell.

Here is why. People who own more than few k mount lenses - they are certainly a minority, even within the Pentax user base. There are more k-r/k-x users than those who shoot with k-5. And, these k-r users are not the ones who buy premium lenses. Many are just with a kit lens or two. A budget conscious users whom I presume to be the k-r owners, I just don't see them moving up to get a new body, or having this as a back up. On the other hand, the k-5 users, whom I presume to be the avid group, so to speak, may want this as a back up ( btw ths back up concept also escapes me - why the hell you need a back up unless your livelihood depends on it?). I am not sure how worthwhile it is for Pentax to throw money in developing a back up camera. It makes no sense. Pentax could have, and stii can show their loyalty by preserving the k mount in dslr set up, and/or coming up with FF dslr, etc. While I do believe that mirrorless is the future, it is evident by reading many posts here that avid shooters are not ready or willing to give up dslr. So, judging by what this camera has and does not have, I am at a loss as to who it was aimed at.

I think that you are correct in that with a new mount, it would have been a "me too" product. But personally, that would have been ok. This was the opportunity to expand their user base way beyond the currently existing user base. And, this would have been their opportunity to design faster primes at smaller sizes. Fuji has shown that with appropriate goods, consumers would come from all directions. This was again their opportunity to be creative with adapters, so not no alienate the current avid k mount worshippers.

"Short sightedness" is what I see. I feel like they could have done better.

02-03-2012, 05:39 PM   #140
Veteran Member




Join Date: Oct 2007
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 418
QuoteOriginally posted by russell2pi Quote
I think you are right about the Fuji - it apes the old cameras to the point of self-parody.
What part of the Fuji is an un-needed bit of retro fluff? What has changed so fundamentally about cameras that makes the direct access controls with haptic feedback so "retro"? I keep hearing people say it, but apart from the fake leather cover and the hybrid VF it has functionally the same controls and ergos as any other camera, including Pentax, that included an aperture ring on the lens. If that's retro, it's retro that worked well. You can tell how the camera's setup without lighting it up, and adjust it by touch even if you can't see. Maybe it makes me an old fogey, but I think turrets and aperture ring is a much more intuitive control interface of primary camera controls than a touch screen or soft buttons.

People are comparing these camera's like they're the latest PC and it's just a bunch of specs on a sheet w/o thinking about the real world impact of the design decisions on the act of photography. Retro wrapping or not, the XPro is a much more capable camera for likely any photographic task that doesn't involve movie making.

QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
Will my K-mount lenses work without an adapter on the NEX-5N and does the NEX-5N have in body SR that works with the 25 million K-mount lenses ?
A lot of manual lenses will actually work better, since you won't have to bother with stop down metering.

QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
How has the lack of legacy mount support hurt ANY other manufacturer? Has Olympus been hurt? Has Sony been hurt? Is Fuji feeling any negative effects? I guess those companies are a lot more capable than Pentax, so they can pull it off.

If legacy support is SO important why are the other companies doing so well without it? Legacy support has proven to be irrelevant to every other manufacturer.
Oly had nothing to lose, Sony could afford to take a flyer on a new mount, Fuji was starting from scratch. K mount is Pentax's golden handcuffs, because they've let themselves be defined as a value brand; 25 million lens on Ebay! Therefore all the folks that love Pentax proclaiming that anything that made them so much as buy an adapter would have made them not buy or drop the brand. So crippled product after crippled product with the occasional solid mid range SLR when the actual camera designers are allowed to work.
02-03-2012, 05:51 PM   #141
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 5,801
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by junyo Quote
Oly had nothing to lose, Sony could afford to take a flyer on a new mount, Fuji was starting from scratch. K mount is Pentax's golden handcuffs, because they've let themselves be defined as a value brand; 25 million lens on Ebay! Therefore all the folks that love Pentax proclaiming that anything that made them so much as buy an adapter would have made them not buy or drop the brand. So crippled product after crippled product with the occasional solid mid range SLR when the actual camera designers are allowed to work.
I agree with most of what you are saying, but I don't think Sony could afford a flyer. They made bold claims when they bought Minolta about becoming a major player in the camera market and it has not happened. Sony execs. have been on the hot seat to gain market share. Sony has been surprised by the success and demand of NEX cameras. They have even talked about how this unexpected demand has changed their product development. The floods probably hurt Sony more than anyone. The NEX-7 WAS the hot camera, but people could not get it. Now Fuji and Olympus both have serious EVIL cameras ready to launch and people who have been waiting have other options to consider.
02-03-2012, 05:53 PM   #142
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 5,801
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Fontan Quote
But seriously, I would say that you line of reasoning is rather a good observation, based on what this camera has and does not have. Yet, I still do question that particular strategy, and as a business model, I am not sure how effective it will be - time will only tell.

Here is why. People who own more than few k mount lenses - they are certainly a minority, even within the Pentax user base. There are more k-r/k-x users than those who shoot with k-5. And, these k-r users are not the ones who buy premium lenses. Many are just with a kit lens or two. A budget conscious users whom I presume to be the k-r owners, I just don't see them moving up to get a new body, or having this as a back up. On the other hand, the k-5 users, whom I presume to be the avid group, so to speak, may want this as a back up ( btw ths back up concept also escapes me - why the hell you need a back up unless your livelihood depends on it?). I am not sure how worthwhile it is for Pentax to throw money in developing a back up camera. It makes no sense. Pentax could have, and stii can show their loyalty by preserving the k mount in dslr set up, and/or coming up with FF dslr, etc. While I do believe that mirrorless is the future, it is evident by reading many posts here that avid shooters are not ready or willing to give up dslr. So, judging by what this camera has and does not have, I am at a loss as to who it was aimed at.

I think that you are correct in that with a new mount, it would have been a "me too" product. But personally, that would have been ok. This was the opportunity to expand their user base way beyond the currently existing user base. And, this would have been their opportunity to design faster primes at smaller sizes. Fuji has shown that with appropriate goods, consumers would come from all directions. This was again their opportunity to be creative with adapters, so not no alienate the current avid k mount worshippers.

"Short sightedness" is what I see. I feel like they could have done better.
Well said.
02-03-2012, 06:32 PM   #143
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 5,801
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Raffwal Quote
Why all the venom?
No venom.... People want to keep claiming that a new mount would be bad. I think that is totally false. There is no evidence to support that. If a new mount is bad for Pentax then you have to apply that same logic to everyone else. Pentax is not in a vacuum. They have the same market challenges as everyone else.

Fuji has not made a ILC in 5 years. They have been out of the market. Pentax has several advantages over Fuji because of this. Pentax has better name recognition than Fuji for entry level and mid-level photographers. And because of the 645D Pentax probably has better recognition than Fuji among professionals. Fuji has not marketed to the ILC crowd in 5 years.

For years Pentax users have been saying that they can't compete with Canon/Nikon because they don't have the marketing or exposure of those two. Pentax does not have the product line up of Canon/Nikon. Pentax does not have enough lens options to compete with Canon/Nikon.

Fuji could have sat on their butt and said all of the those things. Fuji could have come up with all of those excuses and more as to why they can't compete. But instead of being like Pentax and cranking out crap cameras in a rainbow of colors while complaining about the need to build brand recognition, Fuji went to work on a new high end system with some very cool technology like hybrid VF and a 6 color filter to eliminate the low-pass.

Fuji will pass Pentax for market share in key market segments. The high end enthusiast is a very important customer. They buy the most lenses of any other group. Lenses are where the money is. Fuji will do this because they make better decisions, design better products, and have a better understanding of where they need to be in the market to be successful.

Hopefully I am wrong. Hopefully Ricoh will put the money on the table to restore the talent pool at Pentax. Hoya gutted the companies R&D department and forces out anyone with talent. So Pentax users can start using that excuse as well. Competition is a good thing and the market/consumers are better off with a strong innovative Pentax. Watching Pentax right now is a lot like watching RIM introduce the new Playbook. The loyalist (the two that are left) are acting like RIM has actually put a good product on the market.

02-03-2012, 06:33 PM   #144
Veteran Member
jct us101's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Rohnert Park, CA
Posts: 3,695
Go E-M5!
02-03-2012, 06:42 PM - 1 Like   #145
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: 5th floor
Posts: 1,328
If anything, by keeping the k mount, it is to me more likely that Pentax will one day do FF mirrorless with EVF, with a new mount. If they used a new mount with K-01, there will have been a different mount for each of their line up. Now that would be silly. They should have replaced kr and k-5, and gone straight to FF mirrorless with a new mount. I really believe that mirrorless is the future.
02-03-2012, 07:31 PM   #146
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Minahasa, North Celebes (Sulawesi)
Photos: Albums
Posts: 585
QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Did you feel forgotten by the K-r? It was cheaper if I recall. Pentax has taken the K-r and taken the way the OVF and reduced the number of manual controls and raised the price. Yes, Thank you Pentax.

Pentax K-01 with 40mm is $899.00 on Amazon right now. Amazon.com: Pentax K-01 16MP APS-C CMOS Compact System Camera Kit with DA 40mm Lens (Black): Camera & Photo
Pentax K-r with 2 lens is $788.00 Amazon.com: Pentax K-r 12.4 MP Digital SLR Camera with 3.0-Inch LCD and 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 and 55-300mm f/4-5.8 Lenses (Black): Electronics

Thank you Pentax.......You are not forgotten.....
I already have K20D. It's better than K-r in a sense, I jumped from K100D to K20D for a reason we all know. And K-01 have movie that I did not have. I could probably sell my K20D and get K5, but I will end up owning one camera instead of two. Me and my wife will have the opportunity to take pictures. I need not to buy new lenses, I have plenty. I've saved enough to get a second body, say a K-r or K-x, but getting a K-01 will let me have a taste of the incoming future, the mirror-less, the tech, the hype. Well, a used NEX3 and an adapter will do almost the same, but it's not Pentax, and Sony still reminds me of Walkman, tape-recorders, and household stuff -not a precision photo instrument. That Fuji is way out of my league, and I think my friends will think I'm shooting with film, cause we still have Fuji Film stores around here.

A simple person like me also wanted to be part of the crowd and get noticed in a crowd. Pentax make this happen for me. While you did not, It understand me.

Last edited by minahasa; 02-03-2012 at 07:40 PM.
02-03-2012, 07:47 PM   #147
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 5,801
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by minahasa Quote
I already have K20D. It's better than K-r in a sense, I jumped from K100D to K20D for a reason we all know. And K-01 have movie that I did not have. I could probably sell my K20D and get K5, but I will end up owning one camera instead of two. Me and my wife will have the opportunity to take pictures. I need not to buy new lenses, I have plenty. I've saved enough to get a second body, say a K-r or K-x, but getting a K-01 will let me have a taste of the incoming future, the mirror-less, the tech, the hype. Well, a used NEX3 and an adapter will do almost the same, but it's not Pentax, and Sony still reminds me of Walkman, tape-recorders, and household stuff -not a precision photo instrument. A simple person like me also wanted to be part of the crowd and get noticed in a crowd. Pentax make this happen for me. While you did not, It understand me.
Can't you lock the mirror up on the K-r and pretend you have a mirrorless camera? There is not much difference.

You seem to be more brand oriented. Pentax reminds you of precision photo instrument, but Sony does not? Without that Sony sensor Pentax is in trouble. You want to feel a precision photo-instrument rent a Sony A900 with a Sony Zeiss 135mm f/1.8 or 24-70 f/2.8 for a day. That is one amazing camera to work with. Pentax has not been a leader in the precision photo-instrument field since the A* lenses went out of production and AF became the norm. Prior to the AF revolution Pentax was indeed a leader in the field.

If Pentax makes you feel warm and fuzzy then that is reason enough to buy and use.
02-03-2012, 08:06 PM   #148
Site Supporter
Nick Siebers's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Madison, WI
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,152
Winder, I think your central argument, which you have repeated many, many times in this thread, does not carry the weight you seem to think it does. "Company X ditched its legacy mount and has a camera that sells well, therefore Pentax should do/have done the same". It is possible that that is true; however it is in no way "proven". You are starting from the fact of a successful camera and working backwards to ascribe that success to the new mount, but so many other factors may have been at play. How many cameras fail? Have you considered all of their mounts in your "logic"?

Given Pentax's long association with the K mount, the brand may suffer more than others from a change; how can you say with certainty it is otherwise?

You've made a number of bold predictions here about sales and performance of various cameras. In 6 months, it is unlikely that anyone will check if you were right, or that even you will remember. But since you are one who is sure that the Fuji 35/1.4 will outperform the FA 31/1.8, I will take you predictions with a grain of salt. If you truly know the things you've claimed here, I hope you are well-invested in the appropriate camera companies.
02-03-2012, 08:09 PM   #149
Senior Member




Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 183
QuoteOriginally posted by Fontan Quote
If anything, by keeping the k mount, it is to me more likely that Pentax will one day do FF mirrorless with EVF, with a new mount. If they used a new mount with K-01, there will have been a different mount for each of their line up. Now that would be silly. They should have replaced kr and k-5, and gone straight to FF mirrorless with a new mount. I really believe that mirrorless is the future.
Or replace the 645D and go straight to medium format mirror-less with a new mount. Doesn't sound so good to 645 lens owners does it?

The K01 is great. Very cool unique look. Kudos for keeping the K-mount, which many are invested in. It just needs an EVF.

Let's not get rid of k-mount DSLRs. They are plain better.

Last edited by pz1fan; 02-03-2012 at 08:11 PM. Reason: added comment about DSLRs
02-03-2012, 08:22 PM   #150
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: 5th floor
Posts: 1,328
QuoteOriginally posted by pz1fan Quote
Or replace the 645D and go straight to medium format mirror-less with a new mount. Doesn't sound so good to 645 lens owners does it?

The K01 is great. Very cool unique look. Kudos for keeping the K-mount, which many are invested in. It just needs an EVF.

Let's not get rid of k-mount DSLRs. They are plain better.
I own a 645d, and Personally I would love the idea of mirrorless 645d, even with a new mount, as the only costly lens I have purchased is DFA 55/2.8. The rest of the lenses I own for that are A series (pocket change, really, even all A lenses combined, compared to the cost of the body). Getting rid of a mirror in 645d is to me huge. It frees up and open up an entirely different type of photography.

BTW, I think that will happen in the future, although I doubt they will get a new mount for it. I believe there is enough room in there to play with.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
camera, cameras, fuji, k-01, k01, legacy, lens, mirrorless, olympus, pentax, pentax k-01, support, time
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Full size Fuji X-Pro high ISO images posted... JohnBee Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 12 02-05-2012 09:30 PM
Fuji EVIL - Pro Winder Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 14 10-12-2011 02:12 AM
Pentax PRO Feature that a Pro Photog couldn't find in CaNikon! HermanLee Pentax DSLR Discussion 16 05-03-2009 09:36 AM
street shots - Fuji 400 Pro Gooshin Pentax Film SLR Discussion 17 01-16-2009 06:02 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:18 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top