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02-03-2012, 08:28 PM   #151
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Can't you lock the mirror up on the K-r and pretend you have a mirrorless camera? There is not much difference.

You seem to be more brand oriented. Pentax reminds you of precision photo instrument, but Sony does not? Without that Sony sensor Pentax is in trouble. You want to feel a precision photo-instrument rent a Sony A900 with a Sony Zeiss 135mm f/1.8 or 24-70 f/2.8 for a day. That is one amazing camera to work with. Pentax has not been a leader in the precision photo-instrument field since the A* lenses went out of production and AF became the norm. Prior to the AF revolution Pentax was indeed a leader in the field.

If Pentax makes you feel warm and fuzzy then that is reason enough to buy and use.
I'm more price sensitive and yes I shoot mainly with Pentax' old manual lenses, so it's photo-precision enough for me, and yes I feel warm and fuzzy because only with Pentax I can jaw-drop my Canikon friends with a set of gear more than half the price of theirs, so somewhat I feel K-01 user will make that Fuji users feels the same.

02-03-2012, 08:57 PM   #152
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Did you feel forgotten by the K-r? It was cheaper if I recall. Pentax has taken the K-r and taken the way the OVF and reduced the number of manual controls and raised the price. Yes, Thank you Pentax.

Thank you Pentax.......You are not forgotten.....
Not a serious claim about taking the K-r; the K-01 has the K-5 sensor, which is worlds away from the K-r's. I don't think there will be any question the K-01 kills the K-r in IQ and low light, just like the K-5 does. So not a serious claim.

That said, I love the K-r; great camera for a lot of uses, very inexpensive, and feels great for street photography with a hand strap.
02-03-2012, 08:59 PM   #153
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Interesting to see this line from a Nikon user at Snapsort re the K-01.

"Something akin to this is what a lot of Nikon users been waiting for ... to use F mount lenses on a APS-c sensor sized mirrorless camera, not V1/J1 ... sigh"
02-03-2012, 09:08 PM   #154
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nick Siebers Quote
Winder, I think your central argument, which you have repeated many, many times in this thread, does not carry the weight you seem to think it does. "Company X ditched its legacy mount and has a camera that sells well, therefore Pentax should do/have done the same". It is possible that that is true; however it is in no way "proven". You are starting from the fact of a successful camera and working backwards to ascribe that success to the new mount, but so many other factors may have been at play. How many cameras fail? Have you considered all of their mounts in your "logic"?

Given Pentax's long association with the K mount, the brand may suffer more than others from a change; how can you say with certainty it is otherwise?

You've made a number of bold predictions here about sales and performance of various cameras. In 6 months, it is unlikely that anyone will check if you were right, or that even you will remember. But since you are one who is sure that the Fuji 35/1.4 will outperform the FA 31/1.8, I will take you predictions with a grain of salt. If you truly know the things you've claimed here, I hope you are well-invested in the appropriate camera companies.
There is no advantage to using a K-mount that could not be done by Pentax with the proper adapter.

I said that it has been proven that legacy support is not relevant for success. That has been proven by every other EVIL manufacturer. If you want to argue that Pentax is not as capable as those other companies and K-mount is what keeps the company on life support then there is some strength to that argument. But with Ricoh as support I think Pentax could have done it.

I am not working backwards. I am looking at what has been successful in the market for every other mirrorless company. Pentax would be wise to learn from the success of others.

I am not ascribing the success to the new mount. In the case of the Sony NEX the E-mount is rather poor, but the ability to put multiple lenses from other mounts on the E-mount have kept it alive even though most of the cameras are consumer grade junk. People aren't on waiting lists for the NEX-7 because they can wait to use it with Sony glass. People with 77mm LTDs are buying the NEX-7 because it has K-mount adapters. The flexibility of the new mounts is a huge factor. If I really love my Pentax FA Limited lenses I can use them on M4/3, NEX, Fuji, or even Samsung.

I will be more than happy to revisit this in 6 months. I will put it in my Outlook calender. My prediction is that the K01 will be at least as successful as the Q.

Have you ever used a Fujinon lens? All of the Hasselblad H series lenses are made by Fujinon. The cheapest is about $2,500. All of the Sony HD broadcasting professional series lenses are made by Fujinon. Most people don't know about Fujinon glass because Fuji has never made 135mm format ILC before. They make some of the best MF and LF lenses you can buy. I would put Fujinon's ability to make glass second only to Leica. Leica, Fujinon, Zeiss, & Olympus are at the top for lens companies that do any kind of volume. Schneider is up there in quality, but they have such a small market presence most people don't think about them. I feel pretty good about my prediction that the Fujinon 35mm F/1.4 will be as good or better than the 31mm LTD.

I have no problem being wrong and admitting it. The more I look at what Pentax has done the more confident I am in my statements.

02-03-2012, 09:12 PM   #155
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fontan Quote
I own a 645d, and Personally I would love the idea of mirrorless 645d, even with a new mount, as the only costly lens I have purchased is DFA 55/2.8. The rest of the lenses I own for that are A series (pocket change, really, even all A lenses combined, compared to the cost of the body). Getting rid of a mirror in 645d is to me huge. It frees up and open up an entirely different type of photography.

BTW, I think that will happen in the future, although I doubt they will get a new mount for it. I believe there is enough room in there to play with.
I mentioned the idea of a MF EVIL several months back as a way for Pentax to make a major push among professional photographers. Something along the lines of a Mamiya 7II would be amazing.
02-03-2012, 09:17 PM - 1 Like   #156
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QuoteOriginally posted by Basset Quote
Interesting to see this line from a Nikon user at Snapsort re the K-01.

"Something akin to this is what a lot of Nikon users been waiting for ... to use F mount lenses on a APS-c sensor sized mirrorless camera, not V1/J1 ... sigh"
Now ask that guy if he'd even vaguely consider buying a K-01 as it presently exists.

Now ask him if he'd consider a Pentax MILC that could mount his existing glass.

Making a niche product exclusively for your users when you're 30% of a particular market makes a lot more sense than doing it when your users represent 4% of the market. Making a product that pisses off your existing users but potentially attracts boatloads of new ones makes more sense when you're a small player.
02-03-2012, 09:32 PM   #157
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Fuji has not made a ILC in 5 years. They have been out of the market.
This is why it wasn't a gamble for Fuji to release a camera with a new mount. They really had no legacy customers to alienate.
02-03-2012, 09:34 PM   #158
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Fuji will pass Pentax for market share in key market segments. The high end enthusiast is a very important customer.

What other segments will Fuji bypass Pentax besides the very limited high end market? Are there any?

02-03-2012, 09:37 PM   #159
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QuoteOriginally posted by pinholecam Quote
You are quite wrong with regards to the m4/3 lenses. The 12/2; 14/2.5; 20/1.7; 25/1.4; 45/1.8; 45/2.8 make up a very good and small kit covering wide to portrait FL, with speed and optical performance.
The lens speeds w/ 4/3 is tempered by the smaller sensor...smaller = deeper DOF, so they have to make bigger lenses to make up for it.
But you're right in that we'll have to see. I think the X-Pro1 will have better image quality/sharpness because of the missing AA filter...
02-03-2012, 09:53 PM   #160
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
What other segments will Fuji bypass Pentax besides the very limited high end market? Are there any?
Fuji has other X-mount bodies coming. I would not be surprised to see an X-mount designed like the GH-2 at around $1,200.00. Fuji has a couple of big zooms on the road map that don't look like they are a good fit for a RF style camera. Fuji has said one will be coming soon, I would expect them to have 3 to cover the market.

Fuji's 6x6 color array requires a lot of processing power and battery power, so we may see lower cost bodies with traditional Bayer color filters. It will be a full line.
02-03-2012, 10:02 PM   #161
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
This is why it wasn't a gamble for Fuji to release a camera with a new mount. They really had no legacy customers to alienate.
And they did not have the customer support that Pentax has either. Pentax has a very loyal user base. Most of Fuji's user base went to Nikon when the company stopped making ILCs.

The Fuji is the most ordered camera on Amazon right now. Fuji has 3 lenses and one body. That is a pretty amazing feat for $1,700.00 camera with no established base & only 3 lenses.

So how much is Pentax's base really worth? The K-01 was available on amazon with in 24 hours of the Fuji XP1. The K-01 is not even in the top 20 right now. How much is that user base worth? Getting out sold by a camera that costs 2x as much and has no established base?

If Pentax made better decisions they could be the ones where Fuji is right now.
02-03-2012, 10:20 PM   #162
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QuoteOriginally posted by K1D27H Quote
Uh, Fuji is capable of manufacturing sensors on their own. They do not need Sony.

Also, I do not see how Pentax can fit K-mount and M-mount on the same camera, these two mounts have very different flange focal distance. To achieve such thing a camera must have: a mount can be removed and replaced with another, a collapsible mount that can adjust flange distance, or a sensor that can move back and forth. And putting even one of these three abilities into the camera can increase the manufacturing cost quite a bit.
Wrong. The sensor in the X-Pro 1 is manufactured by Sony and modified by Fuji. Whether it lives up to its hype remains to be seen, but we should all reserve judgement until the camera is made available for formal testing and released for use by actual photographers. My understanding is that the sensor in the K-01 may not be identical to that in the K-5, so it is possible the Pentax have also made some modifications.

Rob
02-03-2012, 10:47 PM   #163
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
And they did not have the customer support that Pentax has either. Pentax has a very loyal user base. Most of Fuji's user base went to Nikon when the company stopped making ILCs.

The Fuji is the most ordered camera on Amazon right now. Fuji has 3 lenses and one body. That is a pretty amazing feat for $1,700.00 camera with no established base & only 3 lenses.

So how much is Pentax's base really worth? The K-01 was available on amazon with in 24 hours of the Fuji XP1. The K-01 is not even in the top 20 right now. How much is that user base worth? Getting out sold by a camera that costs 2x as much and has no established base?

If Pentax made better decisions they could be the ones where Fuji is right now.
QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
This is why it wasn't a gamble for Fuji to release a camera with a new mount. They really had no legacy customers to alienate.
Clearly, this is quite true. The Hasselblad H and X-Pan have long since been forgotten by most.

More important and to the point: the corollary is that Pentax could not (and can not) afford to make a XP-1 type (re: adapter for K mount lenses) camera. The PR hit would be severe...I can hear people calling for the last nail in the coffin... And the blowback from long-standing K lens owners would be equally as severe.

The take home message is that Pentax has to consider all the possible consequences of their actions (not just potential Amazon pre-sale numbers), and it can't separate itself from it's very unique reality--Unlike Fuji. Sometimes you have to lose a segment of the battle to win the war. And sometimes you lose both, it's happened before--nothing wrong with that. Not to mention moral and ethical ramifications, heaven forbid market-share thinking would run for the hills if it ever did that.

The other reality is that unlike Sony/Olympus/Panasonic (and it seems Fuji)...Pentax does not need adapted Nikon or Canon or Sony (or Fujinon) lenses. So no advantage to Pentax that I can see in porting these adapted cross system lenses.

Pentax already has Leica/Zeiss/Olympus glass if you really want it in K. Plus all K and M42 glass. Here is where all the desirable lenses live for small form-factor camera bodies (this is my bold yet humble statement).

How many XP-1s Amazon is pre-selling and comparing that with anything Pentax customers do or don't do is probably a conflation. Pentax customers are, in my experience, 100% unpredictable and plain ornery. It seems that XP-1 pre-buyers are quite accommodating and optimistic gentle folk.

Completely off-topic: I just spent 3 glorious hours shooting a lovely FA 135mm f/2.8 and it was certainly a pleasurable experience for me and my dog.
02-03-2012, 11:06 PM   #164
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Simple. The Fuji is the fountain of youth, putting hair back on the chests (and heads) of older photographers, shrinking the dreaded middle-aged spread, and making them daydream about being HCB stopping for a cigarette and espresso at a Parisian cafe. The OM-D is likely to trigger similar synapses.

Mythology is a powerful thing.
That's me! That's Me! How did you know?

Seriously, if I was 22 I would be even more interested in the X-Pro, but you are right, I probably wouldn't have had the cash to spend on it. It is not the representation of youth, but the forward thinking and innovation that is driving many toward Fuji. The X100 has sold boatloads ans is still in high demand.....so is the X10. Fuji listened to shooters on all these various internet Forums...and acted on their desires, while others stayed on the old and trusted road of the past, thinking they would find security in the "sameness" of each others models. They didn't.

Innovation and fine quality can drive any product to the front, add in some sleek and retro styling and great features...like new and inventive viewfinders, and you can end up selling more cameras than you can make. All that cash, and it must be coming in on forklifts to Fuji, fuels more new and innovative gear. We all like to bet on a horse that has a winning record, looks sharp, and produces. So far Fuji has delivered that horse.....being old does not mean being dead to the reality of what is happening in the camera world...and things are happening at Fuji, make no mistake about it!
Ricoh has an opportunity, the K5 has made me loyal to the K mount, after all the X-Pro is not a sports or wildlife camera. I hope Ricoh has figured out how to outdo the K5 with something as stunning and as innovative as what Fuji has accomplished to date.

One note of disagreement with Adam...I think the X10 has excellent IQ, but you can't nurse it out in a few days of testing, or even a week, it took me a month just to figure out the ridiculous menu system...and I can't say I have mastered it yet? Once you learn it, the results can be most excellent, in particular for a small camera with a solid body, no lenses to change, a fast speed at any range, and a wonderful Optical Viewfinder that zooms with the lens and is bright and clear in any type of lighting, including the most brilliant sunshine on earth. Brilliant is the word for the Fuji thinking that led to the development of that little Optical Viewfinder.

I don't do much pixel peeping, but the X10 is up to par with anything I require without question. As I stood to take this shot, the LCD was a total blackout...but the OVF was as bright and clear as this shot it gave me. Works for me!
[IMG] [/IMG]

Best Regards!
02-03-2012, 11:34 PM   #165
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wormtographer Quote
The other reality is that unlike Sony/Olympus/Panasonic (and it seems Fuji)...Pentax does not need adapted Nikon or Canon or Sony (or Fujinon) lenses. So no advantage to Pentax that I can see in porting these adapted cross system lenses.
Really? You can't see any advantage in making it easier to poach customers from a competitor by lowering the cost barrier to switching?
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