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02-04-2012, 10:10 AM   #181
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I'm going to get out of this K-01 discussion, I had my say, and appreciate the ability to do so without being flamed or banned, but I have nothing constructive to add and do not wish to hang around and pound on this camera, when there is every possibility it will be a good seller? The Kx was hounded a little too...the colors and no focus point....remember?

I'll just tell you something I recall from my younger years, back in the Stone Age......The first Volkswagen Beetle I ever saw was disgustingly ugly....I was with some buddies and we saw it down at the local theater parking lot. We almost laughed our butts completely off. I still see them, hear they are doing quite well.

Best Regards!

02-04-2012, 10:51 AM - 1 Like   #182
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QuoteOriginally posted by userage Quote
Fuji X-Pro1/Olympus OM-D > Pentax K-01

Seems to me the only people who are loving the Pentax are Pentaxians. I think the only reason its getting so much attention is because of its hideous looks, I mean even if Sigma made a yellow SLR I'd click to have a look.. I think they really missed the boat on this one. Retro design is loved, I don't think yellow cameras the shape of bricks are.. Except maybe in Japan..? :/
You see, in my world, K-01 > Olympus OM-D > Fuji

I actually have really nice glass for both Pentax and Micro Four-Thirds, but the K-01 will likely be significantly cheaper, and I much prefer the sensor in the K-01 to what may end up being the GH2 sensor in the Olympus. The Panasonic GX-1 was considered also, but again the K-5 sensor has produced better files than the GH2; more organic, and less brittle to PP.

At the end of the day, the K-01 plus a triplet of DA Limiteds - 21/40/70, 15/35/70, or some other combination - is a formidable image-making machine, better quality than Micro Four-Thirds, cheaper than the Fuji with likely very similar IQ, and smaller than dSLR prime alternatives from Canon and Nikon.
02-04-2012, 10:58 AM   #183
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
I'll just tell you something I recall from my younger years, back in the Stone Age......The first Volkswagen Beetle I ever saw was disgustingly ugly....I was with some buddies and we saw it down at the local theater parking lot. We almost laughed our butts completely off. I still see them, hear they are doing quite well.

Exactly! There are very good reasons why some folks are designers...and we are not.
02-04-2012, 11:04 AM   #184
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The Fuji is the most ordered camera on Amazon right now. Fuji has 3 lenses and one body. That is a pretty amazing feat for $1,700.00 camera with no established base & only 3 lenses.
How many cameras are we talking? There might only be 2 Fujis ordered vs 1 Pentax and it would still be the "most ordered camera". You're trying to draw a conclusion based on insufficient evidence.

02-04-2012, 11:05 AM   #185
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
If Pentax made better decisions they could be the ones where Fuji is right now.
What? Pinning their company's future on one camera? LOL
02-04-2012, 11:35 AM   #186
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
After many pages of reading imo frankly outlandish and sometimes illogical arguments, allow me to give my take on things.

1) Target market
Let's take a look at the average Pentax user. The majority are price sensitive and would not consider a camera like the Fuji X Pro 1 no matter how terrific the image quality is. So factoring the affordability issue, it makes perfect sense to make an affordable mass market model that appeals to a wider user base beyond the serious enthusiast segment that Fuji is obviously trying to target. Larger volumes also brings per unit production cost to much lower levels and consequently the potential for larger profit. That's why the K-01 has a lot going by way of value proposition - offering a lot more for so little.
The Pentax "average user" exists because Pentax is a stepping stone brand that people out grow and move away from. A serious enthusiast or aspiring professional will quickly find weaknesses in the system and move on. Pentax has failed to deliver a product line to support these users so Pentax has left themselves with no upper end customers in K-mount.

QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
2) To keep K-mount or go with a new mount
Those who propose to ditch the K-mount apparently forgot the proverb "don't bite the hand that feeds you". Pentax has a huge K-mount user base, many of whom still use manual lenses. Tapping upon even a small proportion of existing users is a lot cheaper and will yield quicker user acceptance than starting from scratch. It's the greatest assurance Pentax can offer to the longstanding loyal user base that their legacy or current K-mount investment isn't redundant. Forcing existing users to buy into a new mount is asking people to re-invest into a new system alongside the existing gear. No commonality and makes no compelling reason to stick with Pentax when they could just as well go with another brand.
You don't get get. I can put K-mount glass on any other mirror-less system currently on the market. CURRENTLY there is no compelling reason to stick with Pentax. If K-mount is the strength then every other EVIL camera on the market has access to that same strength.

QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
3) Using adapters
Why settle with crippled functionality when one can leverage on existing development from current DSLRs to offer superior functionality with the new camera? People want ease of use and convenience and making things easier is always a compelling reason to stick with the brand.
Pentax has 9 versions of the K-mount. Users have been dealing with crippled functionality for years. Sales numbers say the exact opposite of what you are saying.

QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
4) Uncertainty about the future
I seriously don't know why some think that Pentax has lost it's way or don't know what it's doing. Trust me, they know precisely where they stand and how to exploit the gaps in the market and leverage on their existing strengths. Just because we cannot possibly fathom the true state of affairs based on our presuppositions and limited knowledge doesn't mean we're right and Pentax has got it wrong. Unless we're in the trade, most of us will never truly have an inkling of the constraints, insider info or the true picture about the business.

With the K-01, Pentax wants to win over existing users from migrating to other brands; encourage existing users to consider this new camera - commonality of mount and accessories; attract new users to the brand. This is a good thing in the larger scheme of things for Pentax users. More options is always good.
Why would existing users of other brands consider Pentax? What advantage do you see? Everyone has access to K-mount glass. There is no strength or advantage in being restricted to only the K-mount glass. How is limiting your options to a single crippled mount a strength?

What is the value of the K-mount? You call the K-mount user base "HUGE"? Less than 4% market share is HUGE? You need to get out more.
"Larger volumes also brings per unit production cost to much lower levels and consequently the potential for larger profit." Large volumes huh? Compared to what? Look at Amazon sales rankings. Pre-order sales look to be pretty seek. The Fuji and the Pentax were put on Amazon within 24 hours of each other. Looks like more people are willing to spend $1,700 on a camera with no established system than are willing to spend $900 on a Pentax with over 100 lenses options.

Quantify the the value of the K-mount system. Looking at customer demand on Amazon and gauging the media reaction it has very little value. Pentax will lose market share this year because NEX, M4/3, & X-mount are positioned to grow significantly with products that appeal to more people. The value of K-mount to people in the market segment is very, very small.
02-04-2012, 11:35 AM   #187
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Too much of the discussion here continues to pit the intermediate/entry level K-01 against the two new top-of-the-line models from Fuji and Olympus.

Wait until Pentax issues a new top of the line model in some form, then draw comparisons - technical comparisons, Amazon rankings, forum buzz rankings, whatever.

Otherwise it's a bit like calling the K-x a flop because it isn't a D3x.
02-04-2012, 11:35 AM   #188
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QuoteQuote:
2) To keep K-mount or go with a new mount
Those who propose to ditch the K-mount apparently forgot the proverb "don't bite the hand that feeds you". Pentax has a huge K-mount user base, many of whom still use manual lenses. Tapping upon even a small proportion of existing users is a lot cheaper and will yield quicker user acceptance than starting from scratch. It's the greatest assurance Pentax can offer to the longstanding loyal user base that their legacy or current K-mount investment isn't redundant. Forcing existing users to buy into a new mount is asking people to re-invest into a new system alongside the existing gear. No commonality and makes no compelling reason to stick with Pentax when they could just as well go with another brand.
And you've forgotten the proverb "cutting off your nose to spite you face". I don't think anyone's mystified as to why Pentax kept K-mount; it kept the initial cost of the project low and assured compatibility. I've argued before that they basically had no choice. But was possible to maintain K-mount compatibility without making the device native K-mount. Or conversely, if they were going to stay native K mount then go all in and make a device so compelling that people would be tempted to adopt K mount just to obtain that camera. By doing neither, by trying to make a commodity item locked into a proprietary standard used by a sliver of the market they've artificially constrained the marketability

QuoteQuote:
3) Using adapters
Why settle with crippled functionality when one can leverage on existing development from current DSLRs to offer superior functionality with the new camera? People want ease of use and convenience and making things easier is always a compelling reason to stick with the brand.
As has been said repeatedly, even with dumb adapters, people have been buying MILCs. Thats objective fact. And if changing mounts and maintaining compatibility via an adopter were such a crushing body blow then I have to ask why Pentax isn't still making M42 mount bodies? A smart, fully functional adapter could have addressed the compatibility requirements while still enhancing the value.

But beyond that is Pentax's core interests. How long can it survive merely servicing it's existing userbase and occasionally picking up refugees from other brands? If they are going to add customers they need to be a value proposition to as many customers as possible. 25 millions K-mount lens in circulation is actually bad for Pentax because small userbase and the ubiquity of used parts means it's entirely possible to amass a library of Pentax glass without Pentax getting a dime. Pentax needs to get bodies into as many hands as possible and tempt those hands into buying new glass and accessories. The K-01 accomplishes neither. Being late to a the game means a lot of the low hanging customers are gone, locked into other systems. Keeping full size K-mount means that rather than being able to say to that customer
'Try this new camera; it's cheap, and it'll work with your existing glass via an adapter, and when you're ready we have all these shiny new lenses that do even more cool stuff'
...you basically have to say
'Try this new camera; it's cheap, and it'll work with your existing glass...oh, you're not already invested in K mount? In that case you'll need to scrap your existing investment and start fresh. But hey, there's lots of cool lenses available, and cheap too. Lots on eBay. Of course we don't make any money from most of those... But hey our Limiteds are awesome! Wait, you don't want to put a thousand dollar lens on a bargain body... where are you going?'
That's the difficulty of not going with a modern mount. The Fuji is steep, and doesn't have that many native lens, and it might be decades before they have a comparable lens lineup... except within weeks of release you'll be able to mount anything on it. It will have access to the combined interchangeable lens library of basically every mount every made, making the switchover costs or the running in parallel costs substantially lower. People looking at the cost difference are looking at it exclusively from the POV of existing Pentax users for whom there are no lens replacement costs. Factor in the purchase of a few Limiteds and a lot of the difference vanishes.

QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
How many cameras are we talking? There might only be 2 Fujis ordered vs 1 Pentax and it would still be the "most ordered camera". You're trying to draw a conclusion based on insufficient evidence.
Well, since the Fuji is 1 and the Pentax is 38, in CSCs, the best case scenario would be 38 XPros sold for the 1 K-01. Just saying.

02-04-2012, 11:37 AM   #189
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
What? Pinning their company's future on one camera? LOL
If you had done any reading you would know Fuji has multiple bodies planned for the X-mount system.
02-04-2012, 11:43 AM   #190
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Too much of the discussion here continues to pit the intermediate/entry level K-01 against the two new top-of-the-line models from Fuji and Olympus.

Wait until Pentax issues a new top of the line model in some form, then draw comparisons - technical comparisons, Amazon rankings, forum buzz rankings, whatever.

Otherwise it's a bit like calling the K-x a flop because it isn't a D3x.
It has nothing to do with level. IT has to do with market demand. How much demand is their for a K-01 type camera with K-mount support?

IF Pentax is right the the cheaper camera with K-mount support should sell more than the $1,700 camera with no established system to support it.

How much value does K-mount legacy support add to the product? Amazon rankings and media buzz are a good indication of this.
02-04-2012, 11:55 AM - 1 Like   #191
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Introducing the Olympus OM-D





What an odd pair! New tech trying to look old and old tech trying to look new!
02-04-2012, 11:55 AM   #192
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You know, I just had a funny thought.

Maybe, just maybe, the K-01 is a stroke of genius. It's really designed this way to gradually educate the Pentax user base to the benefits of mirrorless. It's a 3 step plan:

Step 1: Remove the DSLR parts from a DSLR and all resemblance to the current DSLR line - Achieved with K-01. Pentax users grumble, but they love their K lenses, so they start using these cameras while waiting for the next DSLR or for the fabled FF one, and thus they discover that a mirrorless camera is not that bad.

Once this critical moment is reached, Pentax will administer the next blow:

Step 2: Shrink the design and draw people in with a smaller camera. Now you can tell them: "it's smaller, we'll add an EVF, and you'll be able to use all your lenses with an adapter". They already have K lenses and they got the mirrorless bug now, so it's an easier sale. They'll still put out a couple of lenses in K mount and even a DSLR, to show commitment during this stage (like Canon was doing after introducing the EF mount).

Step 3: K mount is officially discontinued. There won't be more than 25 million K-mount lenses in the world (including the Limiteds mutilated for use on Canon FF cameras).

Genius!

02-04-2012, 12:02 PM   #193
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Introducing the Olympus OM-D





What an odd pair! New tech trying to look old and old tech trying to look new!

wow.... i was expecting this camera:


this is not a good look for them....
02-04-2012, 12:19 PM   #194
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
You know, I just had a funny thought.

Maybe, just maybe, the K-01 is a stroke of genius. It's really designed this way to gradually educate the Pentax user base to the benefits of mirrorless. It's a 3 step plan:

Step 1: Remove the DSLR parts from a DSLR and all resemblance to the current DSLR line - Achieved with K-01. Pentax users grumble, but they love their K lenses, so they start using these cameras while waiting for the next DSLR or for the fabled FF one, and thus they discover that a mirrorless camera is not that bad.

Once this critical moment is reached, Pentax will administer the next blow:

Step 2: Shrink the design and draw people in with a smaller camera. Now you can tell them: "it's smaller, we'll add an EVF, and you'll be able to use all your lenses with an adapter". They already have K lenses and they got the mirrorless bug now, so it's an easier sale. They'll still put out a couple of lenses in K mount and even a DSLR, to show commitment during this stage (like Canon was doing after introducing the EF mount).

Step 3: K mount is officially discontinued. There won't be more than 25 million K-mount lenses in the world (including the Limiteds mutilated for use on Canon FF cameras).

Genius!

Yup... Thats a whole heap of very very funny thoughts lol lol lol
02-04-2012, 12:24 PM   #195
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In an ironic twist, the K-01, panned for being too big for a mirrorless model, looks like it will be roughly the same size or smaller (perhaps a tad thicker) than the Fuji X1-pro and Olympus OM-D that everyone has been waiting for. The Fuji is really not portable like other mirrorless cameras have been (it looks like a giant compared to the NEX-7). I'm not sure if this has sunk in with people, yet.
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