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02-05-2012, 10:23 AM   #271
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
that by providing you with PDAF
It's not actually an advantage in case of Pentax

02-05-2012, 10:35 AM   #272
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QuoteOriginally posted by userage Quote
...considering it has no VF I just assume people will use it as a point and shoot...

Making assumptions is a very dangerous thing because we're most often wrong in our assumptions.
02-05-2012, 10:44 AM   #273
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QuoteOriginally posted by junyo Quote
...I'm on an upgrade cycle, so money to spend.
If you're on an upgrade cycle...what do you consider an upgrade? It can't be better lens selection...or the option to go FF because you're giving up those things by going with the Fuji, aren't you?
02-05-2012, 11:11 AM   #274
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QuoteOriginally posted by DaveBlack Quote
The K01 is a very good intro-level camera. It will have excellent IQ. It will take a large number of lenses without an adapter. Hopefully it will sell.

For the people that hang out in this forum it will not be a camera for them. I know it is not a camera I will like. Just not enough diret user controls.

The Fuji looks to be a real good camera. The times I have handled the X100 I really liked the optical/digital hydrid viewfinder. Currently there is not enough native lens selection for me to pick this camera for my mirrorless option. Plus it is so expensive. Plus it is not really much smaller than my K-5. It is going after the Leica buyer.

The Olympus OM-D looks to be the camera for me if I want a smaller camera. The high iso might not be as good. I will have to wait until test results come back. It appears to be a good bit smaller than the Fuji and the K-5. I guess this is mainly due to the smaller sensor being used. The native lens selection is getting to be very good Plus the camera is sealed so it will make a good caving camera.

Still I have the feeling there will be a really nice K-5 replacement/upgrade coming our way by the end of the year. The Pentax R&D person hinted at smaller camera bodies and better viewfinders. If I am guessing the K-5 replacement/upgrade will have a Sony 24mp sensor in it and the viewfinder will be a hydbrid optical/digital viewfinder using either the Pentax patent or the Samsun transparent OLED.

So since I own two K-5's and a K-7 I am in no rush to go out and get a new camera. By the time I get to read the reviews of the Pro X1 and the OM-D and those two cameras are in the hands of actual users I will be reading rumors about the upcoming K-5 replacement.

Still if I was picking between the K-01, Pro X 1 and the OM-D right now I will pick the OM-D.

Dave
Nice post that clearly points to the potential flaws/conflation in the OPs initial thesis. Pre-orders at Amazon say nothing about where you specifically are--and I suspect most Pentax shooters.

By that I mean that--if someone is pre-ordering a camera at Amazon--then they probably meet certain needs...like (1) they need a new interchangeable lens camera 'cause they don't already have one. Or (2) they are dissatisfied with their old interchangeable lens camera, and want or need a new one.

It seems to me that if someone has a K-5, or K-7, or K-r/K-x...then this goes a long way towards explaining (at least in part) why a typical Pentax shooter that by-the-way has legacy glass won't necessarily "Pre-order" a new camera---they already might have one AND they are probably not dissatisfied with it. This is where looking at pre-order sale numbers and concluding something based on solely that bit--is quite unsustainable as a cogent argument IMHO.

This brings us to the next question...who would buy an XP-1? My thought (and it's purely conjecture, I freely admit) is someone who previously did not have an interchangeable lens system camera--

Or (and more likely it seems to me since the entering price is closer to 2K)--it is someone who already has an interchangeable lens system, but is somehow dissatisfied with it, or limited by it. Not only that, it's likely that "pre-order" buyers would seem to me to be people who have no problem dropping 2K, which leads me to believe that this is chump change for them.

My honest guess is that many XP-1 "pre-order" buyers are probably Nikon and Canon shooters that have a hole in their lens lineup. They probably yern to shoot the usual suspect Leica lenses, Russian lenses, German lenses, Super Taks, FA and DA little primes. Basically they are looking to add to their color palette, artistic brushes (insert whatever mataphore you prefer here). Lenses with soul and character. Not to say that Canikon doesn't have very fine lenses--they do, but they tend to suffer from lovely efficiency ( I call them wedding lenses somewhat disparagingly). Do everything right especially with controlled light, but without soul or character...

Then you have to consider all the historical and cultural complexities of of Canikon with regards to Pentax. That is a minefield that is not easy to wade through. This is also part of any second system story.

Which brings us to legacy glass, and here I really don't agree that LG is unnecessary for camera system sales. Basically I think much of the high-end mirrorless segment is seeking to co-op somebody else's legacy glass. So while Fuji has none--I think the promise of opening up the LG treasure chest is very appealing to people with a disposable couple of grand in their pocket. Seems to me LG is part of the story here. And ofcourse, Pentax adopters have already been drinking from that treasure chest for many years---

Again, co-mingling arguments and coming to conclusions as to how many #s Amazon pre-sells--XP-1 or K-01 is a conflation in my mind.

-W

02-05-2012, 11:26 AM   #275
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QuoteOriginally posted by userage Quote
Urm hello? I'm 16. The Pentax K-01 is atrocious. You Pentaxians just can't admit its a design fail.
And you are representative of all 16 yr olds are you ? Just like all 16 yr olds love the same type of music ... oh that's right, they don't ! Jeez. As for whether it's a design fault or not .... well read my following post below.

QuoteOriginally posted by userage Quote
Think realistically.
Good advice .... shame you didn't follow it !

QuoteOriginally posted by userage Quote
At the moment the Fuji is top of Amazons best sellers with the Pentax being 24th.
As far as I know Amazon chart represents the USA doesn't it ? Not global is it ? I wonder where the Pentax Q is on the chart ? Not visible is my guess. Fuji X100 ? Very high on the chart of best sellers isn't it ? Guess what ? The Q had global sales of 24,000 last month, against the X100's annual sales of 100,000. Wonder where all those other sales came from. See my post below.

Last edited by Frogfish; 02-05-2012 at 11:51 AM.
02-05-2012, 11:27 AM - 1 Like   #276
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As posted on another forum.

As I said earlier in the thread somewhere, it's the young Chinese / Asian market that will be the driving force for all camera manufacturing in the future (unless those same manufacturers can afford to produce different models for different geographical markets). Two thirds of the world's population live here, the average age is far far lower than in the West and they are becoming more and more affluent. In China the average age of a millionaire (US$) is 38 yrs old, in the USA it's 53 yrs old, and China is expected to pass the USA for the total number of millionaires in one country sometime in the next 5-7 years (it passed Japan in 2011).

The Q whilst pooh-poohed here and elsewhere (and I admit I was one of the crowd) is on course to outsell the much vaunted Fuji X100 by 3:1 going by the latest monthly sales figures (annualised ca. 300k to 100k). The general opinion in the West was it would bomb.

All this childish talk of Fisher Price or Tonka toys is denying reality, the staid industries previously designing & selling their models to Britain, Germany, USA and other relatively conservative countries, are now finding that China/Asia drives their designs and the rest of the world can just tag along.

e.g. China is now for General Motors far and away their highest profit making centre and they have shifted much of their design dept to Shanghai. For producers of luxury items from handbags and designer clothing to almost every exotic car marque, China in 2012 will be their largest market (even though those same cars cost almost twice as much here as they do in the West). I was even reading recently about how London is trying to find ways to avoid losing out on the buying power of the Chinese (Harrods' profits rose 50% last year almost exclusively because of Chinese tourists - the average spend per visit of a Chinese tourist being in the hundreds if not thousands of s whilst local buyers averaged around 50.

Camera makers are no different to the makers of other luxury products - now designing their products to suit their main markets of this year and the future, Asia.
02-05-2012, 11:31 AM   #277
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wormtographer Quote
...it's likely that "pre-order" buyers would seem to me to be people who have no problem dropping 2K, which leads me to believe that this is chump change for them.
And they're willing to drop 2K..."sight unseen". These aren't people who have to have a good return on their investment.
02-05-2012, 11:35 AM   #278
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frogfish Quote
Two thirds of the world's population live here, the average age is far far lower than in the West and they are becoming more and more affluent. In China the average age of a millionaire (US$) is 38 yrs old, in the USA it's 53 yrs old, and China is expected to pass the USA for the total number of millionaires in one country sometime in the next 5-7 years (it passed Japan in 2011).
Those are very serious numbers. It's not what we want to hear in the U.S., but they're the reality of today's life.

02-05-2012, 11:49 AM   #279
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
And they're willing to drop 2K..."sight unseen". These aren't people who have to have a good return on their investment.
Thanks for pointing to this out, Tao.

I forgot to mention-- fleshing-out my thought: by far the togs that I know that can afford a second system at this price are Canon and Nikon shooters (this is purely due to numbers--Canikon shooters have a huge base, ofcourse). Not only that--I know for a fact that Canikon shooters are fairly used to these kind of prices (2K).

That's why I think pre-sale buyers of the XP-1are probably Nikon and Canon shooters--and the implication is that Canikons are in some way dissatisfied or lacking in something that their own brand isn't giving them.

This more than anything would explain Amazon XP-1 pre-order numbers. IMHO.

-W
02-05-2012, 11:58 AM   #280
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frogfish Quote
As posted on another forum.

As I said earlier in the thread somewhere, it's the young Chinese / Asian market that will be the driving force for all camera manufacturing in the future (unless those same manufacturers can afford to produce different models for different geographical markets). Two thirds of the world's population live here, the average age is far far lower than in the West and they are becoming more and more affluent. In China the average age of a millionaire (US$) is 38 yrs old, in the USA it's 53 yrs old, and China is expected to pass the USA for the total number of millionaires in one country sometime in the next 5-7 years (it passed Japan in 2011).

The Q whilst pooh-poohed here and elsewhere (and I admit I was one of the crowd) is on course to outsell the much vaunted Fuji X100 by 3:1 going by the latest monthly sales figures (annualised ca. 300k to 100k). The general opinion in the West was it would bomb.

All this childish talk of Fisher Price or Tonka toys is denying reality, the staid industries previously designing & selling their models to Britain, Germany, USA and other relatively conservative countries, are now finding that China/Asia drives their designs and the rest of the world can just tag along.

Camera makers are no different to the makers of other luxury products - now designing their products to suit their main markets of this year and the future, Asia.
Looked up your comments and to my surprise one of the top articles: 'Half of China’s millionaires want to leave'. Where are you getting that they are designed for the Asian market?

Also I remember Pentax said its sales were disappointing on the Q. I don't know where you are getting that it will outsell the X100, Don't forget the Q is half the price of the Fuji..

Your one of those Pentaxians I was talking about. Every poll I have seen except the one on this forum shows the majority of people dislike the design.

Finally heres something funny, searching Tonka Toy Camera on Google brings the K-01 as the first image...
02-05-2012, 12:15 PM   #281
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QuoteOriginally posted by userage Quote
Your one of those Pentaxians I was talking about. Every poll I have seen except the one on this forum shows the majority of people dislike the design.
When you grow up, you'll learn to do your own thinking and not rely upon polls.
02-05-2012, 12:16 PM   #282
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QuoteOriginally posted by userage Quote
Looked up your comments and to my surprise one of the top articles: 'Half of China’s millionaires want to leave'. Where are you getting that they are designed for the Asian market?
You really shouldn't just randomly quote something you know absolutely nothing about. Do Chinese millionaire's want to leave China ? Absolutely not, they can't get the quality of life they are used to here anywhere else (which includes cultural mores and family/friends - the Chinese are extremely gregarious people and suffer greatly living overseas) however they do want somewhere else to park their money, since they are (in general - this is a very complicated issue) not allowed to invest overseas, the stock market here is in the doldrums and the government has put restrictions on the major investment vehicle here - real estate, and these (stock market and real estate) are the ONLY two legal investment vehicles open to them.

QuoteOriginally posted by userage Quote
Also I remember Pentax said its sales were disappointing on the Q. I don't know where you are getting that it will outsell the X100, Don't forget the Q is half the price of the Fuji..
Not that it will .. it has. Go back and do your homework. C - could do better.

QuoteOriginally posted by userage Quote
Your one of those Pentaxians I was talking about. Every poll I have seen except the one on this forum shows the majority of people dislike the design.
Read Chinese do you ? Japanese then ? Russian ? Korean ? Thai ? So in other words you only really know the English speaking world's impression (and even then a tiny specific cross-section). Guess you learnt absolutely nothing from my post above re. the world's buying population and designing for it. That said it's impossible to correlate those liking/disliking the design on forums into actual sales. 6 months from now we'll know whether the design is a success or not.

QuoteOriginally posted by userage Quote
Finally heres something funny, searching Tonka Toy Camera on Google brings the K-01 as the first image...
Oh Dear. You're showing your age.
02-05-2012, 12:16 PM   #283
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
If you mean this link
Mirrorless Rumors | Blog | And the most (pre)ordered mirrorless camera of the moment is...the Fuji X PRO 1!

I'm sorry...It's site of RUMORS, first of all...And no any proof for such info. Amazon can say EVERYTHING....How to prove?
Don't you think it's marketing move to attract the interest to X-Pro 1


Pay attention
Amazon Best Sellers: Best Compact System Cameras
GE Power Pro X500-BK - first place....

Do you know such camera? Try to find somebody here who tried this GE?

Do you really believe that GE is the best-seller?

And...Amason is not special photo shop....
You know, I just researched this GE Power Pro X500 and just a hair over 100 dollars, it beats all of the other cameras mentioned in this thread into the ground! It is 16 megapixels too, but it also has built in memory (15 MB) and has a 15x zoom.

I am really rethinking the whole K-01 - Fuji decision and may go down this other road! Thank you so much!
02-05-2012, 12:33 PM   #284
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I still think legacy K-mount support is more of a negative than a positive for this camera. If the K-01 is targeting emerging photographers, then chances are that group is not invested in K-mount. If Pentax only has a 4% market share then we know K-mount support is only relevant to 4% of the market at best. That is not a significant number when it comes to a decision like this.
You're right that emerging photographers are probably not invested in K-mount, but I would hope that they would be comforted by the fact that the K-01 that they are thinking of buying can be used with dozens of current lens models and millions of used lenses. Think of the alternative, being told that the camera they just bought is fully compatible with just 3 or 4 lenses but partially compatible with millions of others. For the emerging photog, the former is a stronger selling point than the latter.

QuoteOriginally posted by junyo Quote
I won't consider the OM-D, because I need high ISO performance but I put in my pre-order for the XPro-1 right after the K-01 official announcment. Already let the wife know to expect a slug on the bank statement. I was leaning that direction anyway, and I'm on an upgrade cycle, so money to spend. Might end up with the NEX7. But the K-01, as massively cheaper as it would be for me, isn't even on my radar. It has zero attraction outside of price. I don't care about how it looks, cameras are tools, and I could care less how a chisel looks. It's just aimed so irrationally low, it's kind of insulting.
I can understand concluding that a camera is not compatible with your needs as a photographer, but insulting is a bit of a strong word don't you think? Do you get insulted when Pentax introduces an entry-level Optio? Will you be insulted when Fuji introduces their next $200 47 megapixel point-and-shoot? Will that tarnish your affection for the X Pro 1? Fact is, Pentax never said that their next camera was going to be perfect for you. They never made that promise. Don't be insulted. Either be patient to see what the K-5 and K-r replacements bring, or move on.

QuoteQuote:
I don't think anyone's arguing that rear LCD composition is impossible, just not always the best answer, and it's nice to have the option.

If I'd wanted a flashlight I'd have brought my own. In many circumstances, it's nice (and nice to those around you) to be able to be more unobtrusive. But maybe unobtrusive is too 'retro'.

And this crappy picture was actually composed on an LCD, overhead and tilted and swiveled so I and the bartender were the only ones who could see it. If you going to say that size and bulk don't matter, and that an LCD is perfectly fine as the only viewfinder, then explain why the least flexible LCD arrangement makes sense.
You may not be, but others are calling the K-01 literally "useless" because it doesn't have an EVF, and some of my response have been to counter that extreme view. You're right of course, different situations favor different methods. I shoot regularly with an EVF, OVF, fixed LCD, flip-twist LCD, and external monitor. I'm not beholden to any one method; I'm beholden to the result.

Would a flip-twist LCD have been nice on the K-01? Certainly - I love the ones on my GH1 and GH2! Would an EVF (either built-in or as an accessory) been nice to have on the K-01? For sure! But look what happened - all of a sudden we're talking about a camera that even closer in size and price to the K-5, and farther away in size and price from M43, NEX, and others.
02-05-2012, 01:17 PM   #285
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frogfish Quote
Go back and do your homework. C - could do better.

Oh Dear. You're showing your age.
Hmm..

Anyway the point of me replying to that was that I actually wanted you to post some links to where you saw the Pentax Q doing so well. I heard it was doing well in Japan though, but why would Pentax announce they were dissapointed if it was doing as well as you say?

I don't really hear of anything else apart from cameras being targeted at the Asian markets, I mean Smartphones barely sell there compared to the West. We all know China will become a 'superpower' as time goes, but unless your telling me Pentax wants to primarily target Asia the K-01 seems to be a design flop.

Also no I can only read 2 languages but Google translates pages for me...so..

And no of course you cannot translate polls to sales but it does give a general idea of people's views and so far its not good.. I'm sure for one thing that the price they are selling it at in the UK, I don't think it will do well here. A K-5 is only $80 more..

But I guess we will have to just wait and see then for the sales figures, if any come back.
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