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02-09-2012, 08:02 AM   #466
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QuoteOriginally posted by andi Quote
What system is that? Please explain it to me. A system based on the large size DSLR lenses requiring a large camera,
but following the philosophy of a modern camera which doesn't require a large size.
I guess it must be a lot of empty space inside...

Sorry, but that system is heading absolutely nowhere

There is ZERO excitement about K01. It will not bring Pentax any new users. The only reason it's mentioned is the weird looking design.
Look how excited people are about the new Olympus. And Fuji. And anything NEX. Are you seeing ANY interest in K01 outside this forum?
The concept is going to be a moderately small camera body, combined with tiny, sharp lenses -- that actually have auto focus! Sure, it won't be for everyone, but neither is NEX or Fuji or micro four thirds.

Based on DP Review, there is more "talk" (not sure you could say excitement), about the forth coming K-01 than about any Pentax camera since the K10. Whether or not that translates into sales is debatable, but just to be mentioned in conversation is a good thing.

Finally, as others have said, unless you hang with photographers a lot, no one outside of the forums cares about digital cameras. I can go whole weeks without hearing a discussion of what camera to buy and I have no personal friends or acquaintances who own an Olympus or Fuji camera. Forum buzz is just overstated. People still gravitate to the traditional entry level SLRs -- Nikon D3100, Canon T1i when they are entering a system, not these other cameras.

02-09-2012, 08:17 AM   #467
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
The concept is going to be a moderately small camera body, combined with tiny, sharp lenses -- that actually have auto focus! Sure, it won't be for everyone, but neither is NEX or Fuji or micro four thirds.
+1

It's an interesting move by Pentax - a mirrorless camera that you can actually grip and hold comfortably, something that won't slip through your fingers or be difficult to hold with larger lenses. The mirrorless cameras that everyone compares the K-01 to when discussing size suffer from these problems to varying degrees. There's a small cottage industry growing up around accessory grips for Olympus PEN cameras precisely to address this.

Is it pocketable? No. But most people choose their phones as their pocket camera.
02-09-2012, 08:34 AM   #468
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QuoteOriginally posted by westmill Quote
I think if pentax put this sensor in a tiny fixed lens camera with a 21mm and a simple OVF It would sell like bloody hotcakes !
A camera that will fit in your pocket capable of pro quality images.
Pentax will make XS lenses instead of tiny cameras.

Look...
I used *ist DS and I thought it was VERY small for me...125 x 93 x 66 mm
K-01 - 122 x 79 x 58 mm....Even smaller...

More smaller - I don't want it...My hands are rather big...

Maybe K-02 will be thinner...But the size of K-01 is good for me.

Last edited by ogl; 02-09-2012 at 08:58 AM.
02-09-2012, 08:42 AM   #469
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
Yes, I find puzzling the approach of camera companies. Sometimes it feels like they work hard to be clueless to what the market is looking for.
It's not cluelessness, it's laziness. Genuine innovation requires risk taking and leap of faithing and the occasional abject failure. Businesses follow the herd and try variations on other company's successful memes because it's safer and CYA for the decision makers when stuff goes wrong.
QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
At the end of the day the K-01 will capture images with appreciably better IQ than the Olympus and neck and neck with the Fuji. And cost less than both. Does anything else really matter?
Yes. In good light at low to moderate ISO's I defy you to tell the difference between moderately sized prints from any of these cameras, or from an SLR from 5 years ago, or from a quality point and shoot. Virtually any quality camera is capable of taking excellent pictures to the extent of the photographer's ability. The differences are at the edges of the envelope, and the capability that the camera has to make the act of photography easier for the photographer at those fringes. Inherent in the idea of an ILC is a certain amount of hassle (because interchangeable lenses are a hassle, if someone invented a FF fixed lens camera with a f0.95 constant aperture 10-1000mm zoom that weighed less than a car I'd buy it and never touch an ILC again) in exchange for more capability. The capability to use a lens best suited for conditions, to use it under less than optimal lighting/focusing/operating conditions, to be able to configure the camera's controls to your liking. Other than the ability to change lenses, the K-01 is simply far less capable at the fringes than the other cameras, which is fine, it's in a different prie class. But compared to other cameras in it's class, it's not a slamdunk on price, or size, or features. Which is why my contention has been all along that it doesn't really offer a readily apparent value to the P&S upgrader (look at the number of sub $400 MILC systems in the Amazon top 100 now), or the enthusiast. Other than being polarizingly styled, it just seems to be in some vague middle ground to people not already invested in K mount.

QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
Not big on paper, but it looks not small in reality
You realize that you posted pictures of the camera with the accessory grip, right?

Update:
We have a new contender! Three cameras enter, one camera leaves!

Olympus OM-D E-M5 16 MP Live MOS Interchangeable Lens Camera with 3.0-Inch Tilting OLED Touchscreen and 12-50mm Lens (Black)
#1 in*Electronics > Camera & Photo > Digital Cameras > Compact System Cameras
OM-D kits/bodies also at #3, #4, #5, #10

Fujifilm X-Pro 1 16MP Digital Camera with APS-C X-Trans CMOS Sensor (Body Only)
Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #119 (-14) in Camera & Photo (See Top 100 in Camera & Photo)
#8 (-6 - Could that all be OM-D displacement?) in*Electronics > Camera & Photo > Digital Cameras > Compact System Cameras

I ranked the yellow kit yesterday, but I'll base the numbers off of the top ranked K-01 kit this morning in the interest of cheating on behalf of Pentax.
Pentax K-01 16MP APS-C CMOS Compact System Camera Kit with DA 40mm Lens (Black)
#2,826 (-1649 ) in Camera & Photo (See Top 100 in Camera & Photo)
#67 (-36) in*Electronics > Camera & Photo > Digital Cameras > Compact System Cameras

Ouch. Rub some dirt on it and get back out there dude, it's just a flesh wound.

Pentax K-01 16MP APS-C CMOS Compact System Camera Kit with DA 40mm Lens (Yellow)
#2,976 in Camera & Photo (See Top 100 in Camera & Photo)
#70 in Electronics > Camera & Photo > Digital Cameras > Compact System Cameras


Last edited by junyo; 02-09-2012 at 08:53 AM.
02-09-2012, 08:44 AM   #470
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
Honestly, I haven't seen any excitement about any of these cameras out in the real world. Not even among the folks in my camera club. Some folks may have read about them in a magazine, but if they have, I haven't heard them talking about them.
in the real world people aren't waiting with baited breath for the next camera from anyone. they need a camera and they go to the shop (not usually a camera store but a big box or costco walmart style) and get one, and some may go online and order one.
get this on the shelf at Best Buy (whose target customer is a female who wants less tech talk and simpler buying procedures BTW - having worked for them under the Futureshop banner)
02-09-2012, 08:52 AM   #471
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QuoteOriginally posted by junyo Quote
It's not cluelessness, it's laziness. Genuine innovation requires risk taking and leap of faithing and the occasional abject failure. Businesses follow the herd and try variations on other company's successful memes because it's safer and CYA for the decision makers when stuff goes wrong.

Yes. In good light at low to moderate ISO's I defy you to tell the difference between moderately sized prints from any of these cameras, or from an SLR from 5 years ago, or from a quality point and shoot. Virtually any quality camera is capable of taking excellent pictures to the extent of the photographer's ability. The differences are at the edges of the envelope, and the capability that the camera has to make the act of photography easier for the photographer at those fringes. Inherent in the idea of an ILC is a certain amount of hassle (because interchangeable lenses are a hassle, if someone invented a FF fixed lens camera with a f0.95 constant aperture 10-1000mm zoom that weighed less than a car I'd buy it and never touch an ILC again) in exchange for more capability. The capability to use a lens best suited for conditions, to use it under less than optimal lighting/focusing/operating conditions, to be able to configure the camera's controls to your liking. Other than the ability to change lenses, the K-01 is simply far less capable at the fringes than the other cameras, which is fine, it's in a different prie class. But compared to other cameras in it's class, it's not a slamdunk on price, or size, or features. Which is why my contention has been all along that it doesn't really offer a readily apparent value to the P&S upgrader (look at the number of sub $400 MILC systems in the Amazon top 100 now), or the enthusiast. Other than being polarizingly styled, it just seems to be in some vague middle ground to people not already invested in K mount.

You realize that you posted pictures of the camera with the accessory grip, right?

Update:
We have a new contender! Three cameras enter, one camera leaves!

Olympus OM-D E-M5 16 MP Live MOS Interchangeable Lens Camera with 3.0-Inch Tilting OLED Touchscreen and 12-50mm Lens (Black)
#1 in*Electronics > Camera & Photo > Digital Cameras > Compact System Cameras
OM-D kits/bodies also at #3, #4, #5, #10

Fujifilm X-Pro 1 16MP Digital Camera with APS-C X-Trans CMOS Sensor (Body Only)
Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #119 (-14) in Camera & Photo (See Top 100 in Camera & Photo)
#8 ( [COLOR="rgb(255, 0, 255)"]-6[/COLOR] - Could that all be OM-D displacement?) in*Electronics > Camera & Photo > Digital Cameras > Compact System Cameras

I ranked the yellow kit yesterday, but I'll base the numbers off of the top ranked K-01 kit this morning in the interest of cheating on behalf of Pentax.
Pentax K-01 16MP APS-C CMOS Compact System Camera Kit with DA 40mm Lens (Black)
#2,826 ([COLOR="rgb(255, 0, 255)"]-1649[/COLOR]) in Camera & Photo (See Top 100 in Camera & Photo)
#67 ([COLOR="rgb(255, 0, 255)"]-36[/COLOR]) in*Electronics > Camera & Photo > Digital Cameras > Compact System Cameras

Ouch. Rub some dirt on it and get back out there dude, it's just a flesh wound.

Pentax K-01 16MP APS-C CMOS Compact System Camera Kit with DA 40mm Lens (Yellow)
#2,976 in Camera & Photo (See Top 100 in Camera & Photo)
#70 in Electronics > Camera & Photo > Digital Cameras > Compact System Cameras
well it's actually 11 since pentax has 6 kits plus 3 body only options whereas the fuji is body only I'm not sure if the oly kit is listed yet (the bulk of olys will be body only though I would think)
unfortunately the numbers don't get amalgamated to give any sort of valid read on model ranking
02-09-2012, 09:27 AM   #472
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
well it's actually 11 since pentax has 6 kits plus 3 body only options whereas the fuji is body only I'm not sure if the oly kit is listed yet (the bulk of olys will be body only though I would think)
unfortunately the numbers don't get amalgamated to give any sort of valid read on model ranking
It's 11 in the category specific to kits, the broader compact system camera and general camera is what winder initally used, so as i join in his thread I'm sticking with his metric.

It would be helpful if Amazon aggregated the totals for a model, but I understand why they rank by SKU's. And that does dilute the totals when one model has few kits and others have many. But even factoring for the dilution, the K-01 would need more kits in the top 100 or a couple of the SKUs higher ranked to be selling at parity with the Fuji. And I thought body only would be higher for the Oly, but the kit with the 12-50 zoom is the number #1, and selling well enough to push that lens into the top 10 of lens rankings.
02-09-2012, 09:28 AM   #473
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QuoteOriginally posted by junyo Quote
Yes. In good light at low to moderate ISO's I defy you to tell the difference between moderately sized prints from any of these cameras, or from an SLR from 5 years ago, or from a quality point and shoot. Virtually any quality camera is capable of taking excellent pictures to the extent of the photographer's ability. The differences are at the edges of the envelope, and the capability that the camera has to make the act of photography easier for the photographer at those fringes. Inherent in the idea of an ILC is a certain amount of hassle (because interchangeable lenses are a hassle, if someone invented a FF fixed lens camera with a f0.95 constant aperture 10-1000mm zoom that weighed less than a car I'd buy it and never touch an ILC again) in exchange for more capability. The capability to use a lens best suited for conditions, to use it under less than optimal lighting/focusing/operating conditions, to be able to configure the camera's controls to your liking. Other than the ability to change lenses, the K-01 is simply far less capable at the fringes than the other cameras, which is fine, it's in a different prie class. But compared to other cameras in it's class, it's not a slamdunk on price, or size, or features. Which is why my contention has been all along that it doesn't really offer a readily apparent value to the P&S upgrader (look at the number of sub $400 MILC systems in the Amazon top 100 now), or the enthusiast. Other than being polarizingly styled, it just seems to be in some vague middle ground to people not already invested in K mount.
I agree 100% with what you say about modern cameras in good light - they are all good. And yes to the differences in the fringes. But a couple of points to add:

The irony of camera design is that soccer moms and basketball dads are the most demanding users - the want good performance AUTOMATICALLY. The aren't aspiring photographers - they are simply documenting their lives and want a camera that will capture the basketball game, school play, and other dimly lit events (photographically speaking) with as little fuss as possible. They are at the performance fringe, with a kit lens and without the knowledge that photo enthusiasts have.

That's the reason that most stall at the entry-level dSLR and kit lens. It does a passable job in many of the situations that they find themselves in. Do they take pro quality photos? No, far from it. But their kid is relatively sharp and relatively in focus, and that's way better than their phone or P&S did. Most aren't willing to spend more money, more space in the van, and more time learning to get to the next level; they've got a soccer game to go to, then a birthday party, then...

That said, I think you're doing the K-01 a disservice by trying to fit it into that scenario, as I don't think that's who the camera's aimed at. The ISO may be there but the AF lags even an entry dSLR. As Pentax UK said, I really think the K-01 targets the artisan/designer crowd. The Etsy, Threadless, Zazzle crowd. Billyburg. Portland. Austin. People in the creative arts. People that have a personal style, that think about what they wear, that look in the mirror one last time before leaving. For many of them, photography may be a secondary or tertiary pursuit to whatever they are making. They take pictures for fun and creative inspiration. They shoot Lomos and have the Hipstamatic app on their iPhone. The K-01 is their camera. It's not a boring dSLR that every wanne-be pro and soccer mom has. They've thought about buying a used film Leica or admire a friend that has one.

Now only Pentax would hire me to market to this group, they'd have a home run on their hands. Or maybe more accurately, a goal, because this group watches more soccer (football)....

My $.02, non-refundable.

02-09-2012, 09:35 AM   #474
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QuoteOriginally posted by westmill Quote
LOL I remember back in the seventies some photographer putting on a big exhibit !
All pics taken on cell phone !
QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
Cell phones in the 70's had cameras? Pull the other one.
I think someone remembering cell phones in the seventies having cameras in them is a case of having had access to something that no one else knew about, or some very good weed.

The first cellular network
QuoteQuote:
The first cellular network in the world was built in 1977 in Chicago and turned on in 1978. By the end of 1978 it had over 1300 customers.
First Camera Phone
QuoteQuote:
Sharp's Mobile Communications Division created the world's first commercial camera phone, the J-SH04, in Japan in 1997
02-09-2012, 10:09 AM   #475
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote

That said, I think you're doing the K-01 a disservice by trying to fit it into that scenario, as I don't think that's who the camera's aimed at. The ISO may be there but the AF lags even an entry dSLR. As Pentax UK said, I really think the K-01 targets the artisan/designer crowd. The Etsy, Threadless, Zazzle crowd. Billyburg. Portland. Austin. People in the creative arts. People that have a personal style, that think about what they wear, that look in the mirror one last time before leaving. For many of them, photography may be a secondary or tertiary pursuit to whatever they are making. They take pictures for fun and creative inspiration. They shoot Lomos and have the Hipstamatic app on their iPhone. The K-01 is their camera. It's not a boring dSLR that every wanne-be pro and soccer mom has. They've thought about buying a used film Leica or admire a friend that has one.

Now only Pentax would hire me to market to this group, they'd have a home run on their hands. Or maybe more accurately, a goal, because this group watches more soccer (football)....

My $.02, non-refundable.
good read on the market John I think that you may have nailed the market segment. Now do i think Pentax US will market it to them? based on previous marketing guy comments not likely - they do need to revamp the whole department IMO (more in the US than elsewhere but I think all markets need some marketing help)
02-09-2012, 10:24 AM   #476
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
I think someone remembering cell phones in the seventies having cameras in them is a case of having had access to something that no one else knew about, or some very good weed.

The first cellular network

First Camera Phone
well it was a long time ago..... Its sad you think the exact date is relevent, thats far funnier lol
I will say it worked though, because the guy was on the news !
im sure someone out there may remember it.
If i remember rightly he was a well known photographer.
02-09-2012, 10:37 AM   #477
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I can agree with some of this. The Fuji is more Leica like and the K-01 more TONKA/Fisher-Price-ish.

But my point is:

Pentax = 1/2 the price and 30x more lens options than the Fuji...... Why is the Fuji out selling? If people really care about legacy glass support and price then Pentax SHOULD outselling M4/3 and Fuji and its 3 lenses......

Pentax users care about K-mount. If Pentax wants to sell to Pentax users, K-mount support is important. You seem very worked up over this. Relax.
02-09-2012, 10:48 AM   #478
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43 Rumors | Blog | Impressive in Japan: Mirrorless surpasses DSLR market share. M43 surpasses Nikon and Canon!

Here are some graphs showing market share by mount.

Soon we will get to see how well these systems are selling in Japan at least.

In 2008 4/3 (standard) had more market share than K-mount and Olympus all but abandoned it. The moved to a system that can use any lens with an adapter and their sales have shot up.

Pentax wants to sell to new users and grow, not sell to its existing stagnant base. K-mount has very little value to in its current state. Hopefully Ricoh can make the investment to improve the value of the system. The new 500mm is a step in the right direction.
02-09-2012, 10:56 AM   #479
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Pentax wants to sell to new users and grow, not sell to its existing stagnant base. The new 500mm is a step in the right direction.
Because of course the 550/5.6 will be sold to a new user base .... oh ! That's right ! It won't
02-09-2012, 10:59 AM   #480
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
43 Rumors | Blog | Impressive in Japan: Mirrorless surpasses DSLR market share. M43 surpasses Nikon and Canon!

Here are some graphs showing market share by mount.

Soon we will get to see how well these systems are selling in Japan at least.

In 2008 4/3 (standard) had more market share than K-mount and Olympus all but abandoned it. The moved to a system that can use any lens with an adapter and their sales have shot up.

Pentax wants to sell to new users and grow, not sell to its existing stagnant base. K-mount has very little value to in its current state. Hopefully Ricoh can make the investment to improve the value of the system. The new 500mm is a step in the right direction.
Wow. Have we reached the tipping point? My prediction - one of the big two (Canon and Nikon) will misjudge the mirrorless revolution. Ten years from now one of them will be well on their way to following Kodak to the history books....
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