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02-11-2012, 01:19 PM   #571
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
illdefined is IGNORED.

Further reducing the repetitive reading I need to do.

As a general rule I understand every Pentax offering ever made or to come pales by comparison to Canon, Nikon, Fuji and Olympus. And Leica.




I like Pentax.




I hate myself.




Sigh.
how old exactly are you?

02-11-2012, 01:25 PM   #572
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
You are like a study in negative space.

I think the whole point of Ricoh is to think about the future of Pentax, not the past, which is reflected in the woeful marketing they've been permitted to do in North America. I think it is fairly clear the K-01 project began as long as 18 months ago. Mark Newson states he was hired early in 2010. This is a Hoya product.

We get it. You want to beat into submission anyone who doesn't share your opinion. Look at me!! Look at me!!

Well fine. But FFS please go exhibit your work elsewhere.

And take Winder with you.
somewhere in-between all the garbage text you keep typing you actually say something meaningful. we agree Ricoh and Pentax's marketing has been "woeful" which I think is the general consensus here. go figure.
02-11-2012, 01:31 PM   #573
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
But, how can we really say anything about the "larger market" without discussing the two elephants in the room? The larger market is Canon, Nikon...and everybody else. If we're really worried about future investments in gear, the smart money would NOT be on Pentax, Fuji, or Olympus. They're all niche players at this point. That might change at some point in the future, but taking a snapshot of Amazon sales figures really doesn't tell us much.
Canon does not make a mirror-less camera to compare. The GX1 is not selling very well, but it is not a real competitor in this segment any way. There is not guarantee Canon and Nikon will be around 10 years from now. 10 years ago Kodak was a pillar of the industry with cutting edge sensor technology. Contax and Minolta were both producing top quality equipment. When I bought my Contax 645 I had not idea that Contax was about tank.

The Amazon sales figures are for "Compact System Cameras" which excludes sales from the big DSLRs from Canon and Nikon, so they are pretty relevant in my opinion.

Olympus is growing faster than anyone right now (including Canon & Nikon) and Fuji has been on fire. Every XP1 represents new market share for Fuji. Sony NEX has been strong. So strong Sony is re-working their product road map. Canon and Nikon have been stagnant. Mirror-less is going to change the industry. DSLRs are not going anywhere, but Pentax can not afford to sit on the sidelines and watch the mirror-less revolution.
02-11-2012, 01:39 PM   #574
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There is no reason that Pentax could not be where Olympus or Fuji is right now. Pentax has access to great sensors. Pentax is established and has a presence in the ILC market (Fuji has none). I assume the people responsible for the K-7/K-5's ergonomics and customization have not been forced into retirement. The PRIME II is a really good image processor. Just as good as Nikon's.

If Pentax had released a MX-D camera with EVF and new mount I think the sales would have been very strong and the result would have been more money for R&D and improvements for other products like DSLRs and K-mount.

02-11-2012, 01:56 PM   #575
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
No, I don't think it can or should continue this way. I said a couple of years ago that Pentax needs to get their cameras in the hands of consumers so they can feel the difference between Pentax cameras and comparable brands. Pentax was already suffering before they got sold the first time and Hoya only took them farther out of local stores. I'm hoping Ricoh will reverse that, but they really haven't had much of a chance to do that yet. That's why I'm not drawing any conclusions based upon these sales figures.
you're right, it is too early to see Ricoh's approach to distribution, but make no mistake, hiring a bigshot industrial designer (with no previous camera experience) for the K-01 was a *marketing* decision, not a product one.

so was bombarding the media with press shots of the yellow model without any pictures with the Limited Lenses that proves mirrorless-K makes sense.
02-11-2012, 02:03 PM   #576
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Three camera companies releasing 3 mirror-less products at the same time. Three companies fighting for market share against the big 2. If Canon or Nikon had released a mirror-less product at the same time I would have added it. This is about mirror-less products, not Canon/Nikon DSLRs.

3 Fuji represents a niche market with no existing legacy support and a high price.
1 Olympus represents a semi-established system with a small criticized sensor at a middle price point.
2 Pentax represents the most established, the lowest price, the best known sensor.

Which of the is going to strike gold and which one will strike-out?

Who has the best product for the larger market? Who will attract the most new users and experience the most growth. This is important because that means more money for R&D and better products for all of us users. The mirror-less market has the most opportunity for growth and I get the feeling we are at a critical time in the industry for this technology. There are a lot of people (like me) who have been watching the mirror-less segment waiting for the technology to reach a point where it is viable for our needs. I think we are very close to being there.
Put it like this, I think it is very easy. The Olympus is winning by far. I think some of the E-5 users wil go and buy this with the adapter to use their 150mm/f2 lens and other very nice lenses already in their camera bags. The Fuji is ground braking, even more the x100 was at PhotoKina and will sell not even 10 % of the numbers that x100 reached (actually no normal people bought that thing, just some photographic forum lunatics around the world) and is at the bottom. The K-01 sells out the Fuji by a big margin and won't even reach Olympus figures in its lifetime that Olympus will move in the first two months.
02-11-2012, 02:57 PM   #577
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
There is no reason that Pentax could not be where Olympus or Fuji is right now. Pentax has access to great sensors. Pentax is established and has a presence in the ILC market (Fuji has none). I assume the people responsible for the K-7/K-5's ergonomics and customization have not been forced into retirement. The PRIME II is a really good image processor. Just as good as Nikon's.

If Pentax had released a MX-D camera with EVF and new mount I think the sales would have been very strong and the result would have been more money for R&D and improvements for other products like DSLRs and K-mount.
The issue has nothing to do with the camera. The reality is that it has to do with presence in stores. The fuji, as Ron says, will not sell many units in the long run. Olympus has presence in stores in the united states. Pentax under Hoya basically cut out any local presence and ended up doing internet sales through companies like B and H, Amazon, and Adorama. This is a strategy guaranteed to create a shrinking market.

At the same time, in parts of Europe and in Japan, Pentax has a very real presence and therefore much better market share. It's just over 7 percent in Japan of SLRs sold and higher than that in France.

If Ricoh wants to sell the K-01 in the United States, they will get it into stores where people can handle it. Will everyone like it? Of course not. But there enough people who want to be "different" that they will sell and sell well.

Pentax has been dead in the US for a long time. If Ricoh wants to change that, they can. Nikon sells a boatload of D3100s in the United States and it isn't because of specs. It is pure and simple because of a combination of price, advertising and presence. Pentax just needs to capture a bit of the D3100 market to be a success.
02-11-2012, 03:07 PM   #578
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Put it like this, I think it is very easy. The Olympus is winning by far. I think some of the E-5 users wil go and buy this with the adapter to use their 150mm/f2 lens and other very nice lenses already in their camera bags. The Fuji is ground braking, even more the x100 was at PhotoKina and will sell not even 10 % of the numbers that x100 reached (actually no normal people bought that thing, just some photographic forum lunatics around the world) and is at the bottom. The K-01 sells out the Fuji by a big margin and won't even reach Olympus figures in its lifetime that Olympus will move in the first two months.
It is possible but how can we track that.

Japan will track sales my mount so we can see how much growth X-mount experiences over the course of the year, but that only represents one market. We can compare K-mount and X-mount growth, but there is a lot of noise in that.

I agree about Olympus selling more than either. I'm still not sure the K-01 will outsell the X-Pro 1. Fuji will be limited by the number they can produce, and I think they are in a smaller market, but it is amazing how many people are buying it now given that it is a new, expensive, unproven, and unsupported range finder camera.

02-11-2012, 04:50 PM   #579
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I agree with you. Amazon is just one set of numbers. It has its flaws and it shortcoming, but if anyone has a better one please post the information. I actually posted in a previous thread asking people to contribute other sales information form other sources that are available.

Amazon happens to be a pretty good representation of the market (in North America) and probably favors entry level cameras over higher cost enthusiast cameras. I would expect to find a larger number of Fuji XP-1s are sold through B&H and Adorama than through Amazon.
As a professional marketer, I disagree with this. While Amazon may be an indicator or cameras already in the market, pre-orders is a completely different matter. The K-01 in particular is targeted at a market that is not likely to pre-order the camera, while the Fuji and Olympus are. Pre-order stats also do not take into account the marketing and distribution and sales, the blocking and tackling of success. If I had a client that asked me what Amazon pre-orders meant, I'd tell them exactly that, because execution, not Amazon pre-orders will determine the fate of their product.

QuoteQuote:
Fuji has not made a ILC in 5 years. They have been out of the game. How can a company come off the sidelines and overtake Pentax in brand awareness in a matter of months? It is my opinion that it has to do with product. Fuji is making exciting/appealing products that people are talking about. Pentax is not. I agree with you that Pentax lags the other two in brand conversations. I think that is a result of what Pentax has done, or failed to do as the case may be.
Fuji has released the New Beetle and new Mini Cooper of cameras. That's how they did. I'm not a big fan of retro styling but clearly a lot of pople are. I'm more attracted to innovative, functional, and usable designs like the K-5 and Ricoh GXR and designs that are trying to point forward (Sony NEX7 and K-01) instead of pointing back (Olympus, Fuji). I'm actually glad that Pentax didn't go retro for these reasons. They make the cameras the fit my needs, my budget, and my aesthetic sense, and I'll stick with them as long as they continue to do that.

As for now, I've lost interest in this thread and am thus checking out. Enjoy your horse race.
02-11-2012, 05:55 PM - 1 Like   #580
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Even though I have no intrest in mirrorless cameras and see them as pretty second rate in comparison to an SLR, I can at least see and understand and
appreciate the appeal of cameras like the Nex 7 to a lot of people. I also think the K5 is very retro and I love it.
However.... How anyone can see a camera like the KO1 as being a forward looking camera is just beyond me.
Its a simple compact with no veiwfinder ! You can change lenses... Wow ! Its got a good sensor ... Wow !
There is an old well known saying.... If its not broken... dont fix it !
If this camera sells well, it will be because it has captured the publics imagination. In order for it to acheive this it needs a huge advertising campaign to
make it the trendy thing to have. It could be the best thing since sliced bread.... but if nobody even knows about it......
I believe it may sell enough for pentax to have had it developed and put into production. ( I hope so )
I dont think the KO1 is an important camera full stop. I doubt Pentax see it as an important camera.
At best I think Pentax are hoping to jump in and join the fashion trend and make a quick killing.
I can see people buying expensive glass and accesories for the fuji and olympus offerings.
Who in there right mind is going buy much for the KO1 compact ? It would be like putting wide wheels and a spoiler on a Robin Reliant !
02-11-2012, 06:38 PM - 1 Like   #581
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QuoteOriginally posted by westmill Quote
Even though I have no intrest in mirrorless cameras and see them as pretty second rate in comparison to an SLR, I can at least see and understand and
appreciate the appeal of cameras like the Nex 7 to a lot of people. I also think the K5 is very retro and I love it.
However.... How anyone can see a camera like the KO1 as being a forward looking camera is just beyond me.
Its a simple compact with no veiwfinder ! You can change lenses... Wow ! Its got a good sensor ... Wow !
There is an old well known saying.... If its not broken... dont fix it !
If this camera sells well, it will be because it has captured the publics imagination. In order for it to acheive this it needs a huge advertising campaign to
make it the trendy thing to have. It could be the best thing since sliced bread.... but if nobody even knows about it......
I believe it may sell enough for pentax to have had it developed and put into production. ( I hope so )
I dont think the KO1 is an important camera full stop. I doubt Pentax see it as an important camera.
At best I think Pentax are hoping to jump in and join the fashion trend and make a quick killing.
I can see people buying expensive glass and accesories for the fuji and olympus offerings.
Who in there right mind is going buy much for the KO1 compact ? It would be like putting wide wheels and a spoiler on a Robin Reliant !
I like the ergonomics of the K-5 and the size is OK. It is almost too small for me to use without the grip, but I got it for size, so I keep the grip off.

To me the K-01 is a really big P&S. No OVF, no EVF, no lilting LCD. I'm sure the HD video features will be important to some people.

I coordinate some photo events for enthusiasts and I am always amazed at the perception of people new to photography. We all see the newbies buying Canon and Nikon because that is what they see "serious" photographers using. They identify with those big, black cameras as a status symbol just like the name Nikon or Canon. If I bring my Contax 645 they are intimidated view film as retro and artsy. I would mask the name on my E-3 or K-7 and watch people trying to figure out what I was using. The last one I was at there was a lady with the Canon 7D proudly on display, but she kept looking at my K-5 with the Sigma 50mm and large metal lens hood. It was really important for her to know what I had and see how her equipment measured up.

When I think of these entry level enthusiasts and I see how they react to camera equipment I wonder how they will perceive the K-01. Are these not the intended target of the K-01? These people view the black, bulky body as a status symbol for skilled photographers. I'm not sure the K-01 is going to give them the same level of "confidence" they get from the big, loud, black, clunky cameras with the big names. This group wants that. They need to feel important with a big black camera. This is the American market, so I don't know how well it will do in other markets. I know Pentax is stronger in France, Spain, and Asia, but how much stronger. I would put sales of the K-01 at less than 75,000 units world wide this year.
02-12-2012, 12:54 AM - 1 Like   #582
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All psychopathes sat inside their homes or in hospitals and wrote various stuff and nonsense in notebooks under mom's or doctor's care many years ago.
But the internet came to the world and the situation was changed...And it's beyond control now...

But...Glory to Lord, they are few...for the present
02-12-2012, 03:31 AM   #583
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QuoteOriginally posted by westmill Quote
Who in there right mind is going buy much for the KO1 compact ? It would be like putting wide wheels and a spoiler on a Robin Reliant !
My brother bought an Olympus Pen PL-1 with the two kitlenses. At a friendly price since number 3 was just out. For him this is a camera to use for 3-4 years. Then there wil be something new. Maybe again Olympus for the lens, but I don't think that lenschoice would be part of that descision at that time. No external flash, no expensive lenses, no fanboy. Just for family pictures and holiday's. Way better then his Nikon Coolpix P80 bridge camera he got from me in 2008.

So I think that Pentax should make a nice new kitlens for K-01, like 4x zoom and retractable and smal. A 20-90mm xs lens or so.

Wouldn't it be great for Pentax when around the world 400.000 people like my brother would buy this set?
02-12-2012, 04:17 AM   #584
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
My brother bought an Olympus Pen PL-1 with the two kitlenses. At a friendly price since number 3 was just out. For him this is a camera to use for 3-4 years. Then there wil be something new. Maybe again Olympus for the lens, but I don't think that lenschoice would be part of that descision at that time. No external flash, no expensive lenses, no fanboy. Just for family pictures and holiday's. Way better then his Nikon Coolpix P80 bridge camera he got from me in 2008.

So I think that Pentax should make a nice new kitlens for K-01, like 4x zoom and retractable and smal. A 20-90mm xs lens or so.

Wouldn't it be great for Pentax when around the world 400.000 people like my brother would buy this set?
Ha-ha...My brother bought the same stuff...Last year before trip in Thailand...
02-12-2012, 04:18 AM   #585
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
When I think of these entry level enthusiasts and I see how they react to camera equipment I wonder how they will perceive the K-01. Are these not the intended target of the K-01?
Let's say that the 'entry level enthusiast' is someone upgrading from compact to APS-C, without going all that way to DSLR. Then there are currently three choices for a mirrorless APS-C:
- one system, Nex, that models itself on the looks of a compact, with no special design features to speak of,
- one system, Fuji, that models itself on the looks of a rangefinder, with a retro design twist
- one system, Pentax, that models itself on the looks of a DSLR, with a modernist design twist.

This is a clear USP for Pentax, and it could well be successful. For this targeted audience, the Nex resembles a compact too much to be attractive, and the K-01 has an edge over the X-Pro1 in the sense that it more easily allows for a later upgrade to DSLR: for enthusiasts who see their K-01 as a possible step to DSLR, investing in K-mount lenses for K-01 is a safe approach, given that the lenses could also be used on a later DSLR (but if they stay with K-01, the investment will not be lost).
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