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02-02-2012, 10:42 PM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by TOUGEFC Quote
Im not aware of the Fuji specs, but does it do video?
Yes, but I have no idea what its capabilities are. I have maybe shot 1 minute of HD video with a DSLR in my life and that was plenty for me. The core buyers of the Fuji probably don't care much about the HD video aspect.

• 1920 x 1080 Full HD, 24fps
• 1280 x 720 HD, 24fps
• 29 minutes max recording time
• H.264 MOV format
• Stereo sound

02-02-2012, 10:45 PM - 1 Like   #47
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The K-01 is mass-market. The Fujifilm XPRO1 and OM-D are going to be pricey enthusiast cameras. It's unreasonable to make comparisons.

On the XPRO1, the Fujifilm annual financials report was out just a few days ago - the very popular APS-C X100 sold 100,000 units to Dec 31 2011. But that was out of total Fuji camera sales of 9.5 million cameras during the year. I just can't see the twice as expensive (and still merely APS-C) XPRO1 doing anywhere near the same volume as the X100. It's going to be a great camera no doubt, but it is going to occupy a low-volume, premium niche.
02-02-2012, 10:45 PM   #48
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Winder, I find it convenient that you say that the Olympus OM-D Olympus is going to outsell the K-01 but neglect to mention that this is partly due to the large number of M4/3 lenses already in existence. Also, that a large part of the hype related to that camera is that 4/3 lens users are hoping it will finally unite the new M4/3 line with the 4/3 "legacy" line, via an adapter or otherwise, and this will build on the amount of lenses available for their use. So in that case clearly having a large selection of lenses available does matter to consumers.

On a side note, I hope the Olympus OM-D does sell well, because if anyone could use some good news, it's Olympus.

Second, you chose to compare the Pentax K-01 to only the most successful mirrorless entry of the year. Is this fair?

Let me compare it to another camera. This camera, let's call it Camera B, is small, has good image quality, the company was ambitious and created a new mount and entirely new lens systems for it, it can mount Leica lenses with an adapter, it can mount K-mount lenses with an adapter, it has an EVF option, a new CMOS camera sensor, a lineup of high quality pancake lenses, and it even is second generation, so it has had time to establish a following.

Camera B is the Samsung NX200. Of course it must be outselling the K-01 like crazy, right? If I'm reading the Amazon numbers right, the NX200 isn't even ranked.

You could say, well the NX20 might come along and do better with a built in viewfinder. Well maybe the K-02 will do great with its new viewfinder, I'm talking about cameras that are out right now.

To answer your question about why the Fuji X1-pro is doing so well, even better than the very nice Sony NEX-7, is it is the right product at the right time. Most of the preorders that were made were made based on the idea on people seeing the camera and liking the idea of the camera. It has not to my knowledge been extensively reviewed, and certainly wasn't when many of those preorders were made. It has a design that kindles nostalgia, and a viewfinder that satisfies the insistence that every mirrorless camera must have a viewfinder to be taken seriously. It is perfect for the well heeled amateur, who can't quite afford the Leica M9 they really want. You say the Fuji only has three lenses, well realistically it only has one, as I would bet that a good proportion of those cameras are selling with just the 35 mm f/1.4 that people love. (Pentax should be knocked for not realizing people love 35 mm lenses, by the way. Why they never made a new DA* 23 mm I have no idea)

I agree with your general premise that Pentax needs to be more ambitious to stay in the game. But my contention is that the K-01 is a good first step forward, even if it is a design compromise. The fact that it is not doing as well as Fuji's perfect storm on its first foray into mirror less doesn't seem to me a fair indictment of the project.

Last edited by Urkeldaedalus; 02-02-2012 at 10:54 PM.
02-02-2012, 10:50 PM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
And they also brought Leica's expensive retro look downmarket. "Creampuff" on my poll thread said everyone who hated the K-01 was a gray haired old fogie, but the fact is the older folks have the money to popularize "retro" and make it desirable by younger folks. Most younger folks I know want a Leica M9 but can't afford it. Fuji's X series gives them at least a chance to afford it.
The X-Pro1 is nearly the same size as the Leica M9.
And it doesn't have an AA filter, so it should be sharper than the K-01. The Fuji colors also look natural like Pentax colors do.
The 3 primes they released are also a good range of focal length and fast (unlike most 4/3rds lenses)...

p.s., yes, I'd pick the X-Pro1 over the K-01 if I wanted a mirrorless camera...

We really don't know what IQ the K-01 and Xpro are capable of, so lets wait and see.
I doubt the Pentax engineers are dummies wrt their Fuji counterparts though.
Don't forget that K-01 is also far cheaper and at worst will have K5 performance.


You are quite wrong with regards to the m4/3 lenses. The 12/2; 14/2.5; 20/1.7; 25/1.4; 45/1.8; 45/2.8 make up a very good and small kit covering wide to portrait FL, with speed and optical performance. Cheap too if one goes for the 14/2.5; 20/1.7 and 45/1.8.
This does not even cover the UWA and 100-300/4.5-5.6 (equivalent to a 300-600mm on m4/3) avaliable which the Fuji does not have.




QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I think a Fuji with a K-mount adapter is a better option for people who have K-mount glass. I think the Fuji with an M-mount adapter is a better option for people with Leica, Zeiss, Voigtlander glass.

If the K-01 AF is super fast and accurate then I think the Pentax has a chance, but AF has never been a strong point of Pentax. IQ from Pentax has always been very good, but Fuji's APS-C cameras have also had very strong IQ and an occult following among some wedding photographers for their skin tones and DR. Initial reports from field testers is that the Fuji IQ is very good. Better than Nikon D3 good.

The people who really care about legacy lens support are the people who own a lot of K-mount glass, and thus wont be buying any new lenses anyway. They represent a dead income stream for Pentax. Pentax has to attract new customers or introduce new lenses that are very attractive to their existing base. I don't see Pentax doing either of those. The lens road map a disappointment. Not a single DFA lens. Not a single fast prime. For 7 years Pentax has been working on the 1.4X TC. After 7 years of R&D it had better be the damn TC to ever grace the planet earth.

I can only say "lets wait and see".
I certainly understand your points and have some similar concerns too, but Pentax aims for a budget/value/performance orientated market compared to a fashionista one.
So the student/interested layman are usually the ones who find their way to Pentax.
The budget/value/performance proposition vs the others still stand for the K-01 (and very well too)


The poseur/wannabe/fashionista will never use Pentax no matter how good the camera is, unless Pentax/Ricoh makes a push on advertisements and marketing.


Interestingly, I was having a coffee break with 6 colleagues today and one of them (the only other camera enthusiast) told me how ugly the K-01 was. I sort of agreed that it could look better, though I did not dislike it. Another colleague (layman) pulled out his Smartphone and browsed for the K-01, showed the photo around and to my surprise, they felt that it either look good or at least not bad.
So it stood at 4 layman saying it looked good (or at least not put off by its looks) and 1 enthusiast who said it looked ugly. I'm sort of neutral and my vote don't count anyway since I'm a Pentax fan.

02-02-2012, 10:54 PM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
The K-01 is mass-market. The Fujifilm XPRO1 and OM-D are going to be pricey enthusiast cameras. It's unreasonable to make comparisons.
QuoteOriginally posted by pinholecam Quote
I certainly understand your points and have some similar concerns too, but Pentax aims for a budget/value/performance orientated market compared to a fashionista one.
+1 to these. I believe the K-01 is not meant to go head-to-head with the Fuji X-Pro. So why compare? Because both are ...mirrorless?
02-02-2012, 11:01 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
That is my whole point!!!!!!

PENTAX needs to put a product on the market that WILL attract the kinds of buyers that buy the Fuji XP1. Pentax needs to appeal to a larger base if it wants to be successful. Pentax needs to grow.

Fuji X-mount had no real user base. They created a new one. Fuji expanded and in doing so is taking customers away from Leica, Pentax, M4/3, Canon, Nikon, & Sony. Who is Pentax taking customers from. Keeping the natives happy does not grow the user base. It does not attract new users. New users don't give a rats butt about K-mount.

If Fuji executives had the same mentality that you express in "I still stand by my assertion that the average Fuji crowd aren't prepared to spend the kind of money the Fuji X-Pro 1" then Fuji would not be very successful right now. Fuji would not have introduced a camera that received more attention than the Nikon D4 at CES. That is not the attitude of an innovative company.

Who is Pentax going to steal customers away from?
Sorry but apparently you've failed to notice the large number of new Pentax users to date due to the success of the K-x, K-r and K-5. Cameras that pushed the envelope on our color sensibilities, unique features and price point and getting those new to photography to sit up and take notice. To me that has been the success of Hoya firmly taking control and making inroads against the likes of Canon and Nikon. Now obviously, there is also very strong interest in the mirrorless market as seen by the proliferation of new models from other makers.

The new K-01 is making a strong attempt to break into the mirrorless segment and I think they will do well because there is already a large K-mount user base to begin with. It is far, far easier to leverage on an existing user base than to start from next to zero. Even allowing for a large proportion of existing Pentax lens users who can't accept mirrorless and prefer conventional DSLRs, that's still a big number of users who will buy this camera.

The Fuji cameras are priced high and targeted at the high net worth enthusiast but will never achieve mass market success. Pentax/Ricoh has a better chance of achieving this. After all if it can offer K-5 quality or better at less than K-5 prices, this new camera will imo fly off the shelves.
02-02-2012, 11:06 PM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Yes, and in my original post I said let's look at this in 6 months. I think the results will be the same.
You mayberight, but declaring a product a failure before it's been announced for 12 hours, while most are even struggling to understand it's features is pretty aggressive. But even if you are right---ie. it won't be a top seller, it won't establish that the design is wrong.

really crummy products often suceed and reallyl good ones often fail because of marketing skills. Product sell because they have shelf space and they have shelf space because they sell, and successful marketers figure out how to get on that merry go around. If it fails it is more likely that the marketing dept dropped the ball than that the product is bad.
02-02-2012, 11:07 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alizarine Quote
With all due respect (and in every way just curious) what made you think the K-01 was Pentax's answer to the Fuji X-Pro?

Hmm, thanks for that info on the Oly! Will look more up on that camera.
I don't think the Pentax K-01 is the answer for the Fuji. I think the two cameras represent the two different directions of two different companies. It is the differences that I find striking.

When I see the Q and the K-01 from Pentax I see a stark contrast to the X100 and the X-PRO 1 from Fuji.

There was a point in time when Pentax was know for high quality products. The A*135mm f/1.8 was/is one of the best lenses ever made. The company that made that lens and had that mindset no longer exists. There was a point in time when Pentax was the innovative company. That company no longer exists.

What I see in Fuji right now is that high quality and innovation. I see a company that is thinking outside the box and making bold products. I see what Pentax use to be.

02-02-2012, 11:11 PM - 1 Like   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Explain why the Fuji is such a hot selling camera if it has no legacy glass to support it? How can Fuji sell for twice the price?
The reason is simple. People will lineup buying them when the right products hit the markets. Just look at Apple. Before the return of Jobs, Apple was near death but when they produced what people wanted, the sales shot the roof. Sadly Pentax don't seem to know the market and kept missing the opportunities again and again.
02-02-2012, 11:11 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
I sound like a broken record - even to myself, but here goes:

That will take a TOTAL REVAMP of the marketing department at Pentax USA. But I have said before, Ricoh has a history of taking aim at a segment leader and overtaking them within the segment they previously dominated. Their marketing tactics have been outstanding in many regards in the past, so why would we question their ability to take Pentax and do the same thing? It just takes time and resources. Ricoh has the resources, we just need to give them the time.
+1

Witness the appearance of a lens road map out of the blue. Thom Hogan has told me that he expects Ricoh to take up to a year to really take the reigns and make their mark on Pentax, but it looks like it might be happening sooner

.
02-02-2012, 11:13 PM   #56
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Adorama and BH need to create a DA Limited bundle - K-01 plus the DA 21, 40, and 70 Limiteds in a nice limited edition ThinkTank shoulder bag. Sell the kit for $1999. They'll outsell the Fuji and Olympus easily.
02-02-2012, 11:15 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by wlachan Quote
... Sadly Pentax don't seem to know the market and kept missing the opportunities again and again.
That's frankly laughable.
I predict this camera is gonna be a runaway hit.
02-02-2012, 11:21 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
That's frankly laughable.
I predict this camera is gonna be a runaway hit.
Agree, unlike the Q it's got a killer sensor and great price, and IMHO looks fantastic. General population don't give a toss about evf/ovf.
02-02-2012, 11:26 PM   #59
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That's spot on.....Fuji are inovators, Pentax is more like traditionalists....both make good cameras.
Let's not forget new technology CMOS sensor in Fuji.....remember their old SuperCCD in S5Pro? That super CCD surpassed other sensors by years in terms of dynamic range and who knows....probably it will still match K-5 sensor in that aspect. Then again do not forget reputation of Fujinon lenses and probably everybody knows Fuji is lensmaker for Hasselblad. Fuji X100 was a sucessful test run for Fuji X1Pro, but probably would not achieve numbers that X100 achieved. Nevertheless it does appeal to many, it's rangefinder, new sensor technology and very different to other APS-C cameras. That will appeal to many consumers.
Pentax K-01 is a different kind of camera for different group of users. I don't think anybody who was going to purchase Fuji X1Pro is going to change his/her mind just because K-01 emerged. K-01 is clearly an entry level for newcomers or backup camera for those with Pentax dslr and lenses. Somebody mentioned Pentax MX-D and LX-D : names like that would create same kind of expectation as OM-D did, it would be a shame if Pentax wastes them on something else than high profile proffesional camera.
Olympus OM-D is a mystery right now, but I wish them huge success.....and eventually would love to see Olympus back at dSLR's in future.
02-02-2012, 11:33 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by wlachan Quote
The reason is simple. People will lineup buying them when the right products hit the markets. Just look at Apple. Before the return of Jobs, Apple was near death but when they produced what people wanted, the sales shot the roof. Sadly Pentax don't seem to know the market and kept missing the opportunities again and again.
This.

It's a little apples to oranges, but... When the Fuji X100 hit the market, most people liked it, even if not everyone bought it. The K-01 is hitting the market, and all I'm seeing is the existing consumer base finding reasons to buy one, and everyone else just saying WTF.
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