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02-13-2012, 12:30 PM   #616
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The Yellow K-01 is the top selling color on Amazon:

YELLOW: Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #3,448 in Camera & Photo
WHITE: Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #8,023 in Camera & Photo
BLACK: Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #6,234 in Camera & Photo

The Fuji has fallen, but it is because Amazon has sold out and it is back to a waiting list.
Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #525 in Camera & Photo. Maybe Pentax can catch Fuji before more stock arrives..... Maybe....

All four of the Olympus options are listed in the top 10 of Amazons sales rankings.
Amazon Best Sellers Rank:
#1 in Electronics > Camera & Photo > Digital Cameras > Compact System Cameras
#18 in Camera & Photo > Lenses ALL BLACK BODY WITH KIT LENS.

We know all of Fuji sales are to "NEW" users.

Since the Olympus body + kit lens is ranking so strong you have to assume a large number of buyers are new to the system. Body only sales for Olympus are also really strong so their must be a significant number of "upgrading" existing buyers.

The K-01 is falling like a rock. I figured there would be a weekend sales bump for the K-01, but there was no bump. The K-01 continues to fall.

NOTE: If you don't think the sales rankings from the largest on-line retailer are a good source then please post a more accurate source for sales rankings before bitching about it.
I think amazon is valid as a US ranking system. The US is a weak market for Pentax largely due to the way they market there. In asia it's a strong market and we don't see pre-sales from there. I still think comparing what is an entry level camera to the top of the line on pre-order numbers is useless. the client base for the Oly and Fuji is quite sophisticated and more likely to be either adding to there existing system or supplementing it. the K-01 customer is more likely to be a noob who isn't driven by a product announcement but by what they see when they walk in the store.
last year it was the same crap about the Q which apparently a year out has been a success and outsold the K5 in japan (and the K5 has been a success AFAIK)
So they didn't make the camera you want you've made your point. endless posting numbers that mean nothing relevant. either the next mirrorlss Pentax will be what you want r it won't. I doubt they are looking here for design advice
It's like the com[plaint about launching new plastic lenses. the 50 will sell boatloads the lenses you want won't. until they have some sell boatload numbers there they won't waste resources on sell a few models.
Thing is most of the camera market is not what you see here on the forum. we are the small percentage and don't even represent the top 20% of sales with 41544 members we represent a vocal group but that is still a small number from a sales standpoint

02-13-2012, 01:33 PM   #617
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
last year it was the same crap about the Q which apparently a year out has been a success and outsold the K5 in japan (and the K5 has been a success AFAIK)
anybody have more info on how the Q has done globally? i know in the U.S. its been nothing more than a footnote and a snicker..
02-13-2012, 02:17 PM   #618
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
anybody have more info on how the Q has done globally? i know in the U.S. its been nothing more than a footnote and a snicker..
based on your opinion if you don't have sales data

IMO it was never intended to do well in the US (most mirrorless do far less volume in the US than in the rest of the world). Definitely this was a product for the Asian market and sales from the rest of the world were really just a bonus.
Typically though the only easily found sales numbers are the ja[panes ones. the rest of the world you pay for that data reporting. I'm no longer in the business or I'd still have access to the data.
02-13-2012, 03:19 PM   #619
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
based on your opinion if you don't have sales data

IMO it was never intended to do well in the US (most mirrorless do far less volume in the US than in the rest of the world). Definitely this was a product for the Asian market and sales from the rest of the world were really just a bonus.
Typically though the only easily found sales numbers are the ja[panes ones. the rest of the world you pay for that data reporting. I'm no longer in the business or I'd still have access to the data.
no argument there, I don't think I *want* to empirically know how "well" the Q did in the States..

02-13-2012, 03:43 PM   #620
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
I think amazon is valid as a US ranking system. The US is a weak market for Pentax largely due to the way they market there. In asia it's a strong market and we don't see pre-sales from there. I still think comparing what is an entry level camera to the top of the line on pre-order numbers is useless. the client base for the Oly and Fuji is quite sophisticated and more likely to be either adding to there existing system or supplementing it. the K-01 customer is more likely to be a noob who isn't driven by a product announcement but by what they see when they walk in the store.
I think I pointed out earlier that these were three different cameras that are targeting 3 different types of users. That is part of the point. Which company is doing a better job targeting its market and building products that will be successful in that targeted market? I think there is something to the numbers and comparisons. When a camera 3x the price (with lens) with no established user base can out sell the K-01 to new users it says something. They K-01 should be a high volume product. It is priced to be a high volume product.

QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
last year it was the same crap about the Q which apparently a year out has been a success and outsold the K5 in japan (and the K5 has been a success AFAIK)
So they didn't make the camera you want you've made your point. endless posting numbers that mean nothing relevant. either the next mirrorlss Pentax will be what you want r it won't. I doubt they are looking here for design advice
Can you post something that shows how successful the Q has been? Is there a link? The K-5 has been very successful by Pentax standards. It is an excellent product. The Q is half the price of the K-5, so you expect it to sell more..... Just like the K-01 is 1/3 the price of the Fuji..... It should sell more. So far it is not. Maybe the Q is successful by Pentax standards. The Nikon 1 series is the #1 seller in the UK.... Q is #30, so it is doing better than the K-01. The Q will probably out sell the K-01 in all markets.

QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
It's like the com[plaint about launching new plastic lenses. the 50 will sell boatloads the lenses you want won't. until they have some sell boatload numbers there they won't waste resources on sell a few models.
Thing is most of the camera market is not what you see here on the forum. we are the small percentage and don't even represent the top 20% of sales with 41544 members we represent a vocal group but that is still a small number from a sales standpoint
That is why I am looking at Amazon's sales rankings and not Pentax Forums. I agree that this forum does not represent an accurate picture of "who will buy the K-01".

I don't care if they launch more cheap plastic lenses in redundant focal lengths. I do want them to launch something that approaches professional glass to fill the gap between 77mm and 200mm.
02-13-2012, 06:00 PM - 1 Like   #621
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Hi there,

Some figures from amazon japan.
Please note that the K-01 and the X-Pro1 are in the "Digital SLR" category whereas the Olympus is in the "SLR mirror-less" category (as well as the Q).

Digital SLR / New Releases (14 items) :
- X-Pro1 : #3
- K-01 (BLK / YLW / WHT) : #5, #10, #14

Digital SLR / Overall :
- X-Pro1 : #39
- K-01 : #90, #123, #204

SLR mirrorless (12 items) :
- Pentax Q : #1
- EM-5 : #2, #3, #4, #5

Camera & Electronics :
- Pentax Q : #1007
- EM-5 : #1291, #2457, #3600, #7442
- X-Pro1 : #5747
- K-01 : #17000, #23000, #42000

I thought the weird design would have been more appreciated over there but it doesn't seem to be the case

Amazon.jp charts : Google Traduction
02-13-2012, 06:03 PM   #622
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I think I pointed out earlier that these were three different cameras that are targeting 3 different types of users. That is part of the point. Which company is doing a better job targeting its market and building products that will be successful in that targeted market? I think there is something to the numbers and comparisons. When a camera 3x the price (with lens) with no established user base can out sell the K-01 to new users it says something. They K-01 should be a high volume product. It is priced to be a high volume product.


Can you post something that shows how successful the Q has been? Is there a link? The K-5 has been very successful by Pentax standards. It is an excellent product. The Q is half the price of the K-5, so you expect it to sell more..... Just like the K-01 is 1/3 the price of the Fuji..... It should sell more. So far it is not. Maybe the Q is successful by Pentax standards. The Nikon 1 series is the #1 seller in the UK.... Q is #30, so it is doing better than the K-01. The Q will probably out sell the K-01 in all markets.


That is why I am looking at Amazon's sales rankings and not Pentax Forums. I agree that this forum does not represent an accurate picture of "who will buy the K-01".

I don't care if they launch more cheap plastic lenses in redundant focal lengths. I do want them to launch something that approaches professional glass to fill the gap between 77mm and 200mm.
I think you'd be in more sustainable waters with your thesis without the "pre-order" sales component.

From a strict statistician (read: anal retentive) standpoint, there are many other variables that might be confounding--to some degree "pre-order" sale comparisons. Again, I don't see the people buying an $800 mirrorless interchangeable lens camera on a "pre-order" basis necessarily being statistically comparable to people buying on a "pre-order" basis" a mirrorless interchangeable lens camera above $1600.

What is my train of reasoning? Well, I think anyone who is willing to spend "pre-order" above $1600 probably already owns another interchangeable lens camera (system). It seems to me that that a "pr-order" of >$1600 strongly insinuates someone who is not a first time buyer. That and the pricepoint is not unknown to that person--they have spent this amount and more before on a camera.

Beyond that, I imagine such a person already has a system (pure conjecture on my part--I admit). This explains why buying a camera such as the X-Pro 1 with apparently no legacy glass is a missunderstanding of that person. Such a person does not need many Fuji lenses because he/she already has many of their needs covered in their primary system kit. They don't need for Fujinon to offer 85mm f/1.2L or 24-70mm 2.8L lenses for the X-Pro 1 because they already have those lenses. The apparent lack of lenses is more understandable as not really a factor once you understand who would be "pre-ordering" such a camera.

I see the X-Pro 1 as a secondary camera that fills a need...probably portability. Can't tell you how many Canikons complain to me constantly about their backs and their huge kit bags. This is their travel or messing-around-town kit.

So why wouldn't a comparison to X-01 "pre-orders" be statistically justifiable you might ask? Well consider who might pre-order that camera...probably someone who has not tasted the interchangeable lens system waters yet. You might say, a first time buyer. First time buyers may not necessarily "pre-order" a camera the same way a person looking for a secondary system might.

It's just a thought on "pre-order sales numbers", if you do away with the "pre-order" fixation--that would make a difference in your logic.

But I think there is more here than meets the eye. You could just as well ask why would someone buy X-Pro 1 (not on a pre-order basis--just a normal purchase once it's out) vs. any Nikon/Canon/Sony/Pentax/Olympus etc. model camera. The reality is that the myriad of answers are complex (and probably only relevant between each pair compared). Half year from now the answer could change (for each pair), even if you could get an answer now. Canon is top dog--so they must know the secret...ask them.

-W
02-13-2012, 06:37 PM   #623
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QuoteOriginally posted by NickLarsson Quote
Hi there,

Some figures from amazon japan.
Please note that the K-01 and the X-Pro1 are in the "Digital SLR" category whereas the Olympus is in the "SLR mirror-less" category (as well as the Q).

Digital SLR / New Releases (14 items) :
- X-Pro1 : #3
- K-01 (BLK / YLW / WHT) : #5, #10, #14

Digital SLR / Overall :
- X-Pro1 : #39
- K-01 : #90, #123, #204

SLR mirrorless (12 items) :
- Pentax Q : #1
- EM-5 : #2, #3, #4, #5

Camera & Electronics :
- Pentax Q : #1007
- EM-5 : #1291, #2457, #3600, #7442
- X-Pro1 : #5747
- K-01 : #17000, #23000, #42000

I thought the weird design would have been more appreciated over there but it doesn't seem to be the case

Amazon.jp charts : Google Traduction
new the Q was doing well in Japan (and in fact outsold the k5 there) but holy smokes #1 in its category????

Shows they knew their market on that one i guess

K-01 i think is not a pre order type of product, it's customer is not the pre order type so data from 6 months of sales will be the true measure

02-13-2012, 07:31 PM   #624
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Well, the 9 fps has no auto focus, right?
Wrong. It's 9fps with AF-S and 4.2 fps with AF-C. Source.
02-13-2012, 08:28 PM   #625
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QuoteOriginally posted by NickLarsson Quote
Hi there,

Some figures from amazon japan.
Please note that the K-01 and the X-Pro1 are in the "Digital SLR" category whereas the Olympus is in the "SLR mirror-less" category (as well as the Q).

Digital SLR / New Releases (14 items) :
- X-Pro1 : #3
- K-01 (BLK / YLW / WHT) : #5, #10, #14

Digital SLR / Overall :
- X-Pro1 : #39
- K-01 : #90, #123, #204

SLR mirrorless (12 items) :
- Pentax Q : #1
- EM-5 : #2, #3, #4, #5

Camera & Electronics :
- Pentax Q : #1007
- EM-5 : #1291, #2457, #3600, #7442
- X-Pro1 : #5747
- K-01 : #17000, #23000, #42000

I thought the weird design would have been more appreciated over there but it doesn't seem to be the case

Amazon.jp charts : Google Traduction
Glad to know they are doing well in their country. Hope one day this will extend to other part of the world, as well.
02-13-2012, 11:52 PM   #626
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wormtographer Quote
I think you'd be in more sustainable waters with your thesis without the "pre-order" sales component.

From a strict statistician (read: anal retentive) standpoint, there are many other variables that might be confounding--to some degree "pre-order" sale comparisons. Again, I don't see the people buying an $800 mirrorless interchangeable lens camera on a "pre-order" basis necessarily being statistically comparable to people buying on a "pre-order" basis" a mirrorless interchangeable lens camera above $1600.

What is my train of reasoning? Well, I think anyone who is willing to spend "pre-order" above $1600 probably already owns another interchangeable lens camera (system). It seems to me that that a "pr-order" of >$1600 strongly insinuates someone who is not a first time buyer. That and the pricepoint is not unknown to that person--they have spent this amount and more before on a camera.

Beyond that, I imagine such a person already has a system (pure conjecture on my part--I admit). This explains why buying a camera such as the X-Pro 1 with apparently no legacy glass is a missunderstanding of that person. Such a person does not need many Fuji lenses because he/she already has many of their needs covered in their primary system kit. They don't need for Fujinon to offer 85mm f/1.2L or 24-70mm 2.8L lenses for the X-Pro 1 because they already have those lenses. The apparent lack of lenses is more understandable as not really a factor once you understand who would be "pre-ordering" such a camera.

I see the X-Pro 1 as a secondary camera that fills a need...probably portability. Can't tell you how many Canikons complain to me constantly about their backs and their huge kit bags. This is their travel or messing-around-town kit.

So why wouldn't a comparison to X-01 "pre-orders" be statistically justifiable you might ask? Well consider who might pre-order that camera...probably someone who has not tasted the interchangeable lens system waters yet. You might say, a first time buyer. First time buyers may not necessarily "pre-order" a camera the same way a person looking for a secondary system might.

It's just a thought on "pre-order sales numbers", if you do away with the "pre-order" fixation--that would make a difference in your logic.

But I think there is more here than meets the eye. You could just as well ask why would someone buy X-Pro 1 (not on a pre-order basis--just a normal purchase once it's out) vs. any Nikon/Canon/Sony/Pentax/Olympus etc. model camera. The reality is that the myriad of answers are complex (and probably only relevant between each pair compared). Half year from now the answer could change (for each pair), even if you could get an answer now. Canon is top dog--so they must know the secret...ask them.

-W
When I talk about first time buyer I am referring to anyone who buys into a system for the first time. All of Fuji's sales have to be first time buyers because there has never been an X-mount system before. It does not matter if Fuji is pulling customers from Leica, Canon, Sony, or Pentax. Every Fuji XP1 sold equal a growth in Fuji's market share for ILC. I would bet that most of the K-01 sales represent existing K-mount users who already own glass. How much market share is Pentax gaining? Pentax is selling to the choir so to speak. Every one who buys a XP1 will also buy a new lens, because nobody owns one. Most people will buy 2 or 3 since they are all primes.

I think Olympus has a strong mix of first time buyers (new to M4/3) and existing upgrade buyers.

As far as first time ILC camera buyers (entry level people) I think Pentax has missed the mark. Have you seen the Olympus E-PM1 or the Panasonic G3? They look just like a P&S but with removable lenses. The E-PM1 is still selling really strong for $450.00 and is 14 on the Amazon sales list. I think first time (entry level) buyers have more appealing (to new users) options at a lower price point that what Pentax is offering. There are so many strong options at this price point I think Pentax will get lost in the noise, and without marketing it is a lost cause.
02-14-2012, 12:09 AM - 1 Like   #627
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
Wrong. It's 9fps with AF-S and 4.2 fps with AF-C. Source.
Semantics, really. In AF-S it locks the autofocus before the first frame and then doesn't change it, so it performs no autofocusing during shooting at 9fps.

On another note, this video:
http://www.43rumors.com/hot-complete-olympus-e-m5-iso-test/

Makes it seem really nicely built. Olympus logo carved into the metal etc, nice attention to detail.
02-14-2012, 01:16 AM   #628
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Lets think about a potential market segment.

It wil be VERY interesting once magazines/photo gear websites start reviewing the K-01 particulary in group tests- People love a giant killer
The video fuctions are going to be huge with this. Think about it, this is 'The' digital input device for the family home.
What would you have one of your kids hold, a fiddly looking NEX, complicated looking SLR, sophisticated looking Oly or Fuji OR the Solid, Simple Pentax that you can hold with a Zoom lens? AND the price is in HD camcorder territory, it just needs to be marketed - although word of mouth travels fast in parenting circles.
This is what kind of market we are talking about, more and more families are shooting video but they want THE SAME device for photos and they want amazing quality.
The photos will sell the camera. So how many families do you think there are?
02-14-2012, 02:40 AM   #629
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QuoteOriginally posted by pingflood Quote
Semantics, really. In AF-S it locks the autofocus before the first frame and then doesn't change it, so it performs no autofocusing during shooting at 9fps.
Isn't that how AF-S is supposed to behave? If the camera would reacquire focus after each frame, it would be called AF-C, not AF-S.
02-14-2012, 02:42 AM   #630
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
Isn't that how AF-S is supposed to behave? If the camera would reacquire focus after each frame, it would be called AF-C, not AF-S.
That is correct, however you were saying the statement "Well, the 9 fps has no auto focus, right?" was wrong. It's fairly clear that the guy meant continuous autofocus...
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