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02-18-2012, 06:50 AM   #676
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
What are the expectations for a 4/3 sensor and a $1,000.00 camera? Clean 3200? Just 18 months ago Pentax users would have been thrilled to have an APS-C sensor that performed this good. The K-5 has set the bar pretty high in terms of IQ and compares well with older FF cameras.

With lenses like the 45mm and 12mm Olympus is making a pretty capable & compact system.
DxOMark - Olympus M. Zuiko Digital ED 12mm f/2.0
Point taken. But given this is in a thread where we are comparing the OM-D to two other APS-C cameras with next/current gen sensors I thought it was relevant to note that the ISO2500 wasn't up to snuff for the current standards, also noting that ISO1600 or lower would do fine for a camera like that. I actually wish they had left more noise in and focused on the detail but I know then people would have been all over them like they were with Pentax and its approach with the K20D/K-7. I liked ISO 2500 on the K-7, it was sort of gritty and had its own personality. It's when you bumped it up to ISO3200 that things started going terribly wrong

Also, like you said, we'll see what happens when it's in final firmware and people can get their preferred RAW developers.

Really to me the sensor of the OM-D is both one of its main advantage (size and M4/3 lens lineup) and one of its main disadvantages (image quality). Besides the high ISO performance, it is the best overall package of the three cameras in this thread, IMO, but I think a large part of that has to do with Olympus evolution from the EP1. Both the Fuji and K-01 are first tries in a sense for their respective companies, even if Fuji used the X100 and X10 as a pseudo test run.

I agree about the 12mm f/2 being a tempting walk around combo with the OM-D. It makes me want to buy both the OM-D and the K-01 (which I could do, coincidentally enough, for roughly the price of the Fuji X1-pro and one lens)

02-18-2012, 08:01 AM   #677
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QuoteOriginally posted by Urkeldaedalus Quote
Point taken. But given this is in a thread where we are comparing the OM-D to two other APS-C cameras with next/current gen sensors I thought it was relevant to note that the ISO2500 wasn't up to snuff for the current standards, also noting that ISO1600 or lower would do fine for a camera like that. I actually wish they had left more noise in and focused on the detail but I know then people would have been all over them like they were with Pentax and its approach with the K20D/K-7. I liked ISO 2500 on the K-7, it was sort of gritty and had its own personality. It's when you bumped it up to ISO3200 that things started going terribly wrong

Also, like you said, we'll see what happens when it's in final firmware and people can get their preferred RAW developers.

Really to me the sensor of the OM-D is both one of its main advantage (size and M4/3 lens lineup) and one of its main disadvantages (image quality). Besides the high ISO performance, it is the best overall package of the three cameras in this thread, IMO, but I think a large part of that has to do with Olympus evolution from the EP1. Both the Fuji and K-01 are first tries in a sense for their respective companies, even if Fuji used the X100 and X10 as a pseudo test run.

I agree about the 12mm f/2 being a tempting walk around combo with the OM-D. It makes me want to buy both the OM-D and the K-01 (which I could do, coincidentally enough, for roughly the price of the Fuji X1-pro and one lens)
I agree that the OM-D will have the most noise at high ISO and the least DR of the three. I looks like Fuji will have the best IQ, and for the price it should. Pentax will find a happy medium and give the best IQ for the money. But the difference between the three will be probably will not be overly relevant. There really are not any "bad" cameras on the market right now. Actually, the OM-D will probably outsell both Pentax and Fuji even with the smaller sensor.

The Fuji will probably be my first mirror-less camera. The pricing is no different than the K-5 when it came out and the Fuji lenses are in line with the prices of comparable Pentax lenses. I make it point not to be a first adapter, so I will wait and see what happens. My other cameras are still taking excellent pictures.

I can see where the OM-D fits into the market and I can see what makes it appealing to a broad group of photographers.
I can see where the Fuji fits into the market and what appeals to large niche of experienced enthusiasts.

I don't see that with the K-01. I see a camera that has all of the things I don't like about mirror-less and all of the weaknesses of the traditional DSLR all rolled into one. If it had a tilt-up LCD I might could overlook the lack of EVF/OVF. I might even overlook the design of the body if it has really fast and accurate AF. If it was a FF with fast accurate AF I would just wrap its ugly butt in duct tape and not worry about it.
02-18-2012, 09:35 AM   #678
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I agree that the OM-D will have the most noise at high ISO and the least DR of the three. I looks like Fuji will have the best IQ, and for the price it should. Pentax will find a happy medium and give the best IQ for the money. But the difference between the three will be probably will not be overly relevant. There really are not any "bad" cameras on the market right now. Actually, the OM-D will probably outsell both Pentax and Fuji even with the smaller sensor.

The Fuji will probably be my first mirror-less camera. The pricing is no different than the K-5 when it came out and the Fuji lenses are in line with the prices of comparable Pentax lenses. I make it point not to be a first adapter, so I will wait and see what happens. My other cameras are still taking excellent pictures.

I can see where the OM-D fits into the market and I can see what makes it appealing to a broad group of photographers.
I can see where the Fuji fits into the market and what appeals to large niche of experienced enthusiasts.

I don't see that with the K-01. I see a camera that has all of the things I don't like about mirror-less and all of the weaknesses of the traditional DSLR all rolled into one. If it had a tilt-up LCD I might could overlook the lack of EVF/OVF. I might even overlook the design of the body if it has really fast and accurate AF. If it was a FF with fast accurate AF I would just wrap its ugly butt in duct tape and not worry about it.
I agree with some of your critiques of the K-01. It seems to reflect a lot of the market tone deafness of Pentax/Hoya over the past few years especially. In fact, the lack of a EVF is to me more of a flaw because that's what a segment of consumers clearly want from these cameras, then the fact that I want one. I could buy an EVF for my GXR but I haven't, yet, because even if it would make it more useable in some situations I can live without it if I can spend $200 on something else.

Not even offering an optional EVF, though, seems to me to be an intentional act to cripple the K-01 to reserve viewfinders for its higher models. If that is the case, I see it as a mistake on Pentax's part. Not a fatal one, maybe, but one that will hurt the success of an otherwise promising camera. We'll have to see how it all plans out within the context of their larger camera releases.

The K-01 does make sense to me as a fun, quirky device that might draw in a few new people while also not simultaneously alienating Pentax users. It won't likely be a smash hit, but with low costs it could be a modest success for the company, and for a brand trying to find its way with a new owner, a solid success isn't a bad thing.

If they had done everything the same and released it slightly smaller with a new mount, I would have no interest in it, and would likely instead be looking into the upcoming Samsung NX-20. The fact that I am considering the K-01 for video purposes and as a back up camera to my K-5 means that at least a portion of their logic behind the camera makes sense.
02-18-2012, 02:00 PM - 1 Like   #679
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I can see where the OM-D fits into the market and I can see what makes it appealing to a broad group of photographers.
I can see where the Fuji fits into the market and what appeals to large niche of experienced enthusiasts.

there was a time when the SLRs and photo gear was mostly bought by 'photographers'. Today photographers or the people who make money out of photography is very small percentage of camera buyers. OM-D appeal to them (even not all of them impressed by it though, i think it is the ugliest thing i have ever seen).

So I have no doubt that you will read that lots of people bought OM D and few bought K01 because you spend time with crowd who is likely to buy SLR type camera.

With K01 pentax is not wooing OMD crowd, they are wooing the majority of camera buyers that is normal public. So if design appeal to them K01 would sell well.

If I were a business selling cameras, appeal to photographers is what i would be least worried about specially when I had K5 in market just for them.

02-18-2012, 02:38 PM   #680
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QuoteOriginally posted by zxaar Quote
there was a time when the SLRs and photo gear was mostly bought by 'photographers'. Today photographers or the people who make money out of photography is very small percentage of camera buyers. OM-D appeal to them (even not all of them impressed by it though, i think it is the ugliest thing i have ever seen).

So I have no doubt that you will read that lots of people bought OM D and few bought K01 because you spend time with crowd who is likely to buy SLR type camera.

With K01 pentax is not wooing OMD crowd, they are wooing the majority of camera buyers that is normal public. So if design appeal to them K01 would sell well.

If I were a business selling cameras, appeal to photographers is what i would be least worried about specially when I had K5 in market just for them.
I don't think most of the "normal public" wants to deal with using prime lenses or even changing lenses. The Canon G series with its fixed zoom would be a better fit. The "normal public" is very happy with P&S cameras or using high end smartphones so they can immediately share the picture with friends on social media. M4/3 is a much closer fit for this demographic IMHO.

If this was not an inter-changeable lens camera and it had WiFi built in then I would agree with you. Interchangeable lens cameras don't appeal to very many "non-photographers".

Does the K-01 come with a Facebook app and Instragram already installed? You are saying that Pentax is "wooing" the majority of camera buyers who are not likely to buy an SLR, but the K-01 is built to be just like a Pentax SLR (minus the R). It uses SLR lenses and is built to look like an SLR. It is nothing more than a stripped/dumb'ed down SLR.
02-18-2012, 02:55 PM   #681
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I don't think most of the "normal public" wants to deal with using prime lenses or even changing lenses. The Canon G series with its fixed zoom would be a better fit. The "normal public" is very happy with P&S cameras or using high end smartphones so they can immediately share the picture with friends on social media. M4/3 is a much closer fit for this demographic IMHO.

If this was not an inter-changeable lens camera and it had WiFi built in then I would agree with you. Interchangeable lens cameras don't appeal to very many "non-photographers".

Does the K-01 come with a Facebook app and Instragram already installed? You are saying that Pentax is "wooing" the majority of camera buyers who are not likely to buy an SLR, but the K-01 is built to be just like a Pentax SLR (minus the R). It uses SLR lenses and is built to look like an SLR. It is nothing more than a stripped/dumb'ed down SLR.

Thats why I started that sentence with 'if' : "So if design appeal to them K01 would sell well. "

Other than that I stick to what I wrote, pentax is not wooing photographers who lust for for good old film SLRs. It will sell well or not is another story where your opinion fits.


QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
You are saying that Pentax is "wooing" the majority of camera buyers who are not likely to buy an SLR, but the K-01 is built to be just like a Pentax SLR (minus the R). It uses SLR lenses and is built to look like an SLR. It is nothing more than a stripped/dumb'ed down SLR.
Yaa I am saying so.

The dumbed down SLR part is valid for you, for someone who is not used to OVF it is not dumbed down, it is what it is.
02-18-2012, 04:38 PM   #682
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QuoteOriginally posted by Urkeldaedalus Quote
In fact, the lack of a EVF is to me more of a flaw because that's what a segment of consumers clearly want from these cameras, then the fact that I want one. I could buy an EVF for my GXR but I haven't, yet, because even if it would make it more useable in some situations I can live without it if I can spend $200 on something else.

Not even offering an optional EVF, though, seems to me to be an intentional act to cripple the K-01 to reserve viewfinders for its higher models. If that is the case, I see it as a mistake on Pentax's part. Not a fatal one, maybe, but one that will hurt the success of an otherwise promising camera. We'll have to see how it all plans out within the context of their larger camera releases.
(emphasis added)

Isn't it more plausible to suppose that Pentax simply haven't developed a suitable EVF yet, but are working on it? In the meantime, they release the K-01, while planning future models with more extensive feature sets. And there would be little point in offering the option of an external EVF if it won't be available for several months.

It is what it is. I'd say that the K-01 is in many respects of stopgap product, but I happen to think that it has plenty of charm, and would probably suit my shooting style. I'll be very keen to try it out when it eventually appears in bricks-and-mortar stores.
02-18-2012, 04:42 PM - 1 Like   #683
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Since the K-01 came out, I've learned that:
- People serious enough about pictures to drop a grand on a camera really don't care about cameras
- But also really value the worth of a large lens library
- But not too large, which is why they hate adapters
- ...and viewfinders. Viewfinders are dusty relics used only by old men and stupid people.
- Unless you need one, in which case you can add a hunking big screen via the HDMI port
- Which is cool because all these non-photographer expensive camera buying people have been dying to get their hands on bigger non-professional cameras
- But not too big, because that would be silly, And definitely not smaller.
- The most important thing is make the camera in wacky colors - it's "different" and "unique"
- And also more cost effective than R&D on actual camera features; because colored plastic is cheap, talented engineers, not so much.
- Also, we should have unshakable faith that Pentax knows what it's doing and can never make a misstep; I mean, you don't get a tiny marketshare and your company passed around like a bad penny by not knowing what you're doing, amiright?

02-18-2012, 04:51 PM   #684
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QuoteOriginally posted by asw66 Quote
(emphasis added)

Isn't it more plausible to suppose that Pentax simply haven't developed a suitable EVF yet, but are working on it? In the meantime, they release the K-01, while planning future models with more extensive feature sets. And there would be little point in offering the option of an external EVF if it won't be available for several months.

It is what it is. I'd say that the K-01 is in many respects of stopgap product, but I happen to think that it has plenty of charm, and would probably suit my shooting style. I'll be very keen to try it out when it eventually appears in bricks-and-mortar stores.
That's all possible. The first Olympus mirror less cameras didn't have EVFs, right? It would also certainly benefit the GXR for Ricoh to work on its EVF technology.

I am just a bit bothered by the fact that if they were going to develop and EVF in the near future, why not build the capability for the camera to have one in the future? It seems like the lack of an EVF was an intentional omission to me. The main question for that is why? Until they provide an answer speculation is the best we can do on that front.
02-18-2012, 05:20 PM   #685
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I believe Epson is making the EVFs for most camera makers. I am not sure about Samsung. There is a second large manufacturer and I think it is Samsung. I remember reading that Samsung made the EVF for the NEX-7 and I thought that was odd because I always view them as bitter rivals.

The EVF should not be an R&D issue for Pentax. It is a 3rd party item like sensors, LCDs, and image processors.
02-18-2012, 06:23 PM   #686
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I remember reading that Samsung made the EVF for the NEX-7 and I thought that was odd because I always view them as bitter rivals.
actually they have been partners in flat panel plants for about 8 years. all current sony tvs use samsung sourced screens.
02-18-2012, 06:55 PM   #687
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I believe Epson is making the EVFs for most camera makers. I am not sure about Samsung. There is a second large manufacturer and I think it is Samsung. I remember reading that Samsung made the EVF for the NEX-7 and I thought that was odd because I always view them as bitter rivals.

The EVF should not be an R&D issue for Pentax. It is a 3rd party item like sensors, LCDs, and image processors.
The business units of these companies are really disconnected; what one unit thinks of as a competitor is simply another customer to the relevant BU. Samsung's OLED tech is probably the best thing going right now for mobile displays, and that division sells to anyone. Sony has a capable display manufacturing unit (they make a lot of the displays for HTC; HTC switched after Samsung had delivery issues because their Galaxy phones were consuming so much output, but keep in mind HTC was formerly buying from a very direct competitor) but they spec'd the Samsungs for the current NEX EVFs. Apple is suing Samsung in a number of countries, but negotiating with them for displays because Corning is having issues supplying them with screens and Samsung's developed their own version of Gorilla glass to wrap their OLEDs in.

If Pentax wanted an EVF it would not have been an issue, there are a few vendors they could have bought off the shelf from, and honestly in the quantities they would move annually, supply wouldn't be that huge of an issue.
02-19-2012, 03:45 PM   #688
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QuoteOriginally posted by junyo Quote
- Also, we should have unshakable faith that Pentax knows what it's doing and can never make a misstep; I mean, you don't get a tiny marketshare and your company passed around like a bad penny by not knowing what you're doing, amiright?
Nobody said that pentax can never make a misstep. If you have seen such a quote please point us or me to it.

There are few points:

1. Pentax as a company gets to decide what they want to do. It is their money after all. For me and you to keep telling that they should do this, they should do that is same as me telling you how to run your house. We can have opinions but ultimately they get to decide. And what they decide is right (for them).

2. We as customers get to decide whether we buy what they offer or not. That is we get to decide the product is right or wrong. But this varries from individual to individual.

3 Whether something was misstep or not for company could be dependent on how much money did it make. Seeing this: If K-01 sells a lot , it could be good step for company even if it does not have OVF. (not having this is obvious mistake from some people's ref. frame).

QuoteOriginally posted by junyo Quote
I mean, you don't get a tiny marketshare and your company passed around like a bad penny by not knowing what you're doing, amiright?
4. Seeing their marker share K-x and K-5 were obvious mistakes for them because their market share consists of cameras like K-x, K-7 and K-5. (No K-01 yet sold).

It seems they really not doing it correctly, they should have dropped the mirrors and OVF long ago and spent the resource in mid-sized mirrorless' and abandon K mount like Oly did. In my opinion it would be right decision for company and would have made them lots of money. (like oly and pana are significant now).

But it would be horrible for k mount shooters.
so ultimately pentax might be paying the price for caring for their customers who have/had faith in them.
02-23-2012, 09:48 PM - 2 Likes   #689
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Hey Winder, where's your next update? I just checked out Amazon...

Amazon.com Hot New Releases: The best-selling new & future releases in Compact System Cameras

Hot New Releases in Compact System Cameras
About Hot New Releases in Compact System Cameras
These lists, updated hourly, contain bestselling items.

1. Olympus OM-D
2. Olympus OM-D
3. Olympus OM-D
4. Olympus OM-D
5. Nikon V1
6. Fuji X-Pro1
7. Pentax K-01
8. Olympus OM-D
9. Panasonic GX1
10. Pentax K-01
11. Canon G1X
12. Pentax K-01
13. Replay XD
14. Pentax K-01
15. Sony NEX-7
16. Sony NEX-7
17. Fuji Finepix S3200
18. Panasonic GX1
19. Sony NEX-7
20. Olympus Pen E-P3

What conclusions do you want to draw from this?
02-23-2012, 10:40 PM   #690
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I can buy K-01 only close to June...I think.
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