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02-03-2012, 01:03 PM   #121
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QuoteOriginally posted by JinDesu Quote
Hey, let's disregard the k-5 sensor. And the much improved video modes. Stuff that, you know, is nice to supplement a full-on camera with.
The 12MP is out of production. The Sony 16MP is the new entry level sensor. The same on that is in the $600 NEX-5N and the A55. The A55 is about to be phased out. sonyalpharumors | Blog | (SR5) The next SLT camera is the A55 successor!

It is a great sensor, but it is the new entry level.

"Stuff that, you know, is nice to supplement a full-on camera with".... you mean like an OVF even a simple EVF? Maybe a tilt-out screen? Pentax as stripped out more than they added, but don't worry. They kept the price the same.

02-03-2012, 01:10 PM   #122
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QuoteOriginally posted by JinDesu Quote
Pentax is charging less, considering $750 is less than $799. It's got a k-5 sensor. It's got great video. It's can take pictures probably as well as the k-5. Sure you might have to use it a little differently. I know a couple of lovely ladies who use point and shoots to take pictures of cats and flowers and won't really mind that the K-01 is a bit bulkier (hey, it comes in bumblebee yellow, that's adorable).

If it was literally a K-R minus a viewfinder and minus those camera controls without adding proper video support, then obviously all these complaints about price and value and so on are completely and utterly valid.

It's a k-5 minus a viewfinder and minus those camera controls, and instead it gets a ton of video manual controls. Can we say now that at $750 launch price, it's far better than the k-5's $1600 launch price?
We will see. The PRIME M image processor is probably altered for improved HD video and CDAF function. The A55, D7000, & NEX-5N all have the same 16MP sensor, but they all use a different image processor, so the results are not as good as the K-5. Will the images be as good as the K-5? It is possible they will be as good or better, but it is also possible that they will be worse. Canon Rebels use the same sensor as the 7D, but the IQ is not as good.
02-03-2012, 01:14 PM   #123
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frogfish Quote
Did you even bother to read the title of this thread before persistently extolling the virtues of the X100 and it's sales figures, a camera that is in fact not even included in the title ? Maybe we should bring the Kr into the equation too ?

EDIT. Oh I see you've just done that
I read it. My point was (which I stated) that Fuji only expected to sell 70,000 units last year at a price higher than the current price for the K-5. They sold 100,000 even with the floods. The new limited edition (all black) X100 is listing for $1,600.... one year old fixed lens camera. Get on the waiting list.
02-03-2012, 01:16 PM   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The 12MP is out of production. The Sony 16MP is the new entry level sensor. The same on that is in the $600 NEX-5N and the A55. The A55 is about to be phased out. sonyalpharumors | Blog | (SR5) The next SLT camera is the A55 successor!

It is a great sensor, but it is the new entry level.

"Stuff that, you know, is nice to supplement a full-on camera with".... you mean like an OVF even a simple EVF? Maybe a tilt-out screen? Pentax as stripped out more than they added, but don't worry. They kept the price the same.
Will my K-mount lenses work without an adapter on the NEX-5N and does the NEX-5N have in body SR that works with the 25 million K-mount lenses ?

02-03-2012, 01:37 PM   #125
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I think the OP makes an interesting observation. Really, what we may be talking about is what/why/how does a photographer decide what system to buy into. The interesting thing is that the answer may be different today--than it was just a few years ago.

I'll answer my own question: I decide on investing in a photographic system based primarily on image quality. Excluding the photographer which is the primary determinant of image quality, the next determinant for me is glass. Quality lenses are my vetting process (since I can't change the photographer). The actual camera (incorporating things like processor/engine/ergonomics, etc. comes after glass.

I can't see myself buying into a system like the Fuji XP-1 on a pre-order basis because I don’t know the quality of their glass. Until that glass comes out and I see images, for me—it would be irresponsible and premature to buy an unknown quality. I may one day choose Fuji, but only based on facts not vapor. Any comparison of the FA 31mm to as-yet unreleased Fuji lenses are unconvincing to me.

Having said that, the question remains (and should probably be directed elsewhere) why would a photographer pre-order an XP-1? This is a valid and interesting question. It seems quite likely that an XP-1 shooter may be a different kind of animal. Maybe things have changed, as I alluded to before, and for a Fuji Xer glass is not the main determinant. I think a large part of it is “the-right-place-right-time”. It seems that design consciousness is at least part of the story with the XP-1, based on the popularity of the X100/X10. People buying these cameras are at least somewhat nostalgic—and for them IQ may be subsumed in favor of camera design. Ofcourse adapters to other system glass is an issue, and these kind of cameras are changing the game. Now, you don’t necessarily need Fuji glass to run an XP-1, and maybe that’s part of the answer also, but I don’t get the feeling that this makes much difference.
In any case, if you can package both design and IQ, than so much the better. In the world of the fixed lens X100/X10 Fuji seems to have managed that. Price does not seem to be a deterrent.

So the XP-1 undoubtedly is bolstered by recent previous Fuji efforts, and rightly so…enough to buy XP-1 unseen…for some, yes.

Why people don’t or won’t buy Pentax is another matter all together, and frankly much simpler. Pentax suffers from a perception gap (outside of Japan). People won’t invest in a system that they perceive as teetering or faltering in a financial sense. Nothing to do with glass or quality or design. The amount and volume of commentary on the K-01 is an example of that. A good number of comments on the K-01 have come from folks who likely expect Pentax to fold soon because somebody else said it before--and so they are just piling-on… human behavior is such that piling-on is fun (and easy) to do.

Don't know if the game has changed so much that photographers can take the luxury of choosing their interchangeable lens camera system based on something other than proven glass, but if so...it's a paradigm shift.

Big if, I think.

-W
02-03-2012, 02:45 PM   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Is there something really exciting on that map I missed? I was more bothered by what was no on the road map more than impressed by what was. Do we need another 50mm? Another 40mm? What is the WOW lens on that road map?
Well the 500/600 prime got a big "WOW" from me.
02-03-2012, 03:17 PM   #127
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fontan Quote
I still don't get it as to why they kept the k mount. To me, if you want to go mirrorless, designing a new mount is an absolute necessity. Why completely and utterly ignore the biggest advantage that mirrorless set up can offer?
Sorry my friend, but here I have to disagree. A new mount and shorter flange distance is positive as such, but I don't think that would've been the right thing for Pentax to do. µ4/3 and NEX have more or less already divided the market between them + some high end gear such as the new Fuji have a small place for them. If Pentax made a NEX like new mount, it would be a me-too product with little to stand out. Coming this late to the game, I think their only hope is to get support from earlier Pentax users. Release a new incompatible mount and most K mount users might as well go NEX since nothing binds them to the new mount. It's like saying 645D is an upgrade option for Pentax APS-C DSLR users. It's not, it's a completely different system.

Now what might have been interesting is Pentax joining the µ4/3 companies with high quality WR bodies and lenses, but that's another story.
02-03-2012, 03:30 PM   #128
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Simple. The Fuji is the fountain of youth, putting hair back on the chests (and heads) of older photographers, shrinking the dreaded middle-aged spread, and making them daydream about being HCB stopping for a cigarette and espresso at a Parisian cafe. The OM-D is likely to trigger similar synapses.

Mythology is a powerful thing.
I think you are right about the Fuji - it apes the old cameras to the point of self-parody.

Hopefully the OM-D will not go that way. Just give us a good looking interchangeable lens camera with a viewfinder, is that too much to ask? Does everything have to look like a Darth Vader helmet?

At first I was ashamed of myself for being so shallow, but really - is it so wrong for a photographer to be concerned with aesthetics??

02-03-2012, 03:31 PM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frogfish Quote
$2.3k is list and the K-01 lists at $750 .... so do you think that will be it's street price ? Neither do I.
Street enough to me.
Pentax K-01 Digital Camera (Black) 15222 B&H Photo Video
Fujifilm X-Pro 1 Digital Camera (Body Only) 162255391 B&H Photo
02-03-2012, 03:35 PM   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by Raffwal Quote
Sorry my friend, but here I have to disagree. A new mount and shorter flange distance is positive as such, but I don't think that would've been the right thing for Pentax to do. µ4/3 and NEX have more or less already divided the market between them + some high end gear such as the new Fuji have a small place for them. If Pentax made a NEX like new mount, it would be a me-too product with little to stand out. Coming this late to the game, I think their only hope is to get support from earlier Pentax users. Release a new incompatible mount and most K mount users might as well go NEX since nothing binds them to the new mount. It's like saying 645D is an upgrade option for Pentax APS-C DSLR users. It's not, it's a completely different system.

Now what might have been interesting is Pentax joining the µ4/3 companies with high quality WR bodies and lenses, but that's another story.
How has the lack of legacy mount support hurt ANY other manufacturer? Has Olympus been hurt? Has Sony been hurt? Is Fuji feeling any negative effects? I guess those companies are a lot more capable than Pentax, so they can pull it off.

If legacy support is SO important why are the other companies doing so well without it? Legacy support has proven to be irrelevant to every other manufacturer.
02-03-2012, 03:40 PM   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
How has the lack of legacy mount support hurt ANY other manufacturer? Has Olympus been hurt? Has Sony been hurt? Is Fuji feeling any negative effects? I guess those companies are a lot more capable than Pentax, so they can pull it off.
I wonder if you read my post at all after the first few words? µ4/3 and a bit later NEX more or less started a new camera type. The new mount was the right thing for them to do, but Pentax is late to the game and faces a completely different market situation than those two when they started.
02-03-2012, 03:40 PM   #132
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QuoteOriginally posted by trublubiker Quote
Well the 500/600 prime got a big "WOW" from me.
I can see that being a WOW lens for some people. We will see what it ends up being. It could end up like the Sony 500mm that was announced and shown 3 years ago, but you still can't buy it. It could end up being like the Pentax 1.4 X TC that was announced on the last road map 5 years ago. I don't have much faith in Pentax right now.
02-03-2012, 03:57 PM   #133
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wormtographer Quote
I think the OP makes an interesting observation. Really, what we may be talking about is what/why/how does a photographer decide what system to buy into. The interesting thing is that the answer may be different today--than it was just a few years ago.

I'll answer my own question: I decide on investing in a photographic system based primarily on image quality. Excluding the photographer which is the primary determinant of image quality, the next determinant for me is glass. Quality lenses are my vetting process (since I can't change the photographer). The actual camera (incorporating things like processor/engine/ergonomics, etc. comes after glass.

I can't see myself buying into a system like the Fuji XP-1 on a pre-order basis because I don’t know the quality of their glass. Until that glass comes out and I see images, for me—it would be irresponsible and premature to buy an unknown quality. I may one day choose Fuji, but only based on facts not vapor. Any comparison of the FA 31mm to as-yet unreleased Fuji lenses are unconvincing to me.

Having said that, the question remains (and should probably be directed elsewhere) why would a photographer pre-order an XP-1? This is a valid and interesting question. It seems quite likely that an XP-1 shooter may be a different kind of animal. Maybe things have changed, as I alluded to before, and for a Fuji Xer glass is not the main determinant. I think a large part of it is “the-right-place-right-time”. It seems that design consciousness is at least part of the story with the XP-1, based on the popularity of the X100/X10. People buying these cameras are at least somewhat nostalgic—and for them IQ may be subsumed in favor of camera design. Ofcourse adapters to other system glass is an issue, and these kind of cameras are changing the game. Now, you don’t necessarily need Fuji glass to run an XP-1, and maybe that’s part of the answer also, but I don’t get the feeling that this makes much difference.
In any case, if you can package both design and IQ, than so much the better. In the world of the fixed lens X100/X10 Fuji seems to have managed that. Price does not seem to be a deterrent.

So the XP-1 undoubtedly is bolstered by recent previous Fuji efforts, and rightly so…enough to buy XP-1 unseen…for some, yes.

Why people don’t or won’t buy Pentax is another matter all together, and frankly much simpler. Pentax suffers from a perception gap (outside of Japan). People won’t invest in a system that they perceive as teetering or faltering in a financial sense. Nothing to do with glass or quality or design. The amount and volume of commentary on the K-01 is an example of that. A good number of comments on the K-01 have come from folks who likely expect Pentax to fold soon because somebody else said it before--and so they are just piling-on… human behavior is such that piling-on is fun (and easy) to do.

Don't know if the game has changed so much that photographers can take the luxury of choosing their interchangeable lens camera system based on something other than proven glass, but if so...it's a paradigm shift.

Big if, I think.

-W
I agree with pretty much every thing you are saying. I would ask the following:

1. If people are buying based on the system then why is a camera like the XP1 selling so well? There is no system yet.
2. Pentax has price advantage and Pentax has system advantage, so why is it not generating the media interest of Fuji? Fuji has been out of the ILC market for 5 years.

The same applies to NEX adn m4/3. Neither of those systems are nearly as developed as K-mount and M4/3 has a clear sensor disadvantage. I am willing to bet that Fuji, M4/3, and Nex all outsell the Pentax K-01. Legacy glass support has proven to be irrelevant to the success of EVIL cameras. Their flexibility to use multiple mounts (with adapters) have been key to their early success and the announced M-mount adapter for the XP1 is drawing a lot of interest.

The next 6 months will be interesting to watch. We have 3 very different cameras being announced at 3 different price points. We will see what the market really wants.
02-03-2012, 03:58 PM   #134
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QuoteOriginally posted by Raffwal Quote
I wonder if you read my post at all after the first few words? µ4/3 and a bit later NEX more or less started a new camera type. The new mount was the right thing for them to do, but Pentax is late to the game and faces a completely different market situation than those two when they started.
Then Fuji must also be in a different market situation. They too are late to the game. Fuji must have really screwed up by coming out with new mount. I don't think that argument works. I think it is being proved wrong by what Fuji is doing.
02-03-2012, 04:04 PM   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Fuji must have really screwed up by coming out with new mount.
Why all the venom?
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