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02-10-2012, 02:19 PM   #526
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QuoteOriginally posted by junyo Quote
AFAIK in manual mode this is how it and the X100 behave, and no option to turn it off. This is not a deal breaker, and it's something that hopefully gets fixed via update, but annoys me. I never shoot jpeg with my DSLRs, but on my P&S I'm shooting jpegs in manual since I can nail the exposure right on the display. It's stupid handy.
FWIW, the Panasonic GH1 works like the Fuji, brightening the sensor in low light. So what you see is not what you're gonna get - you've gotta watch the meter/histogram. The GF2 works similarly.

The Panasonic GH2, however, let's you choose. You can have it work like the Fuji OR have the display reflect what the final exposure will look like. If someone's backlit, for example, and you overexpose by a couple of stops to compensate, the display will reflect your settings.

Additionally, the GH2 can also show you DOF effects in real-time. These settings work great in decent light and really help in composition and metering, making the GH2 more usable still camera than its predecessor.

02-10-2012, 02:31 PM   #527
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote

The Panasonic GH2, however, let's you choose. You can have it work like the Fuji OR have the display reflect what the final exposure will look like. If someone's backlit, for example, and you overexpose by a couple of stops to compensate, the display will reflect your settings.

Additionally, the GH2 can also show you DOF effects in real-time. These settings work great in decent light and really help in composition and metering, making the GH2 more usable still camera than its predecessor.
This has to be the number one reason for me to want a Good EVF or at least the display working that way . Hopefully this is how the K-01 works as it is really a killer feature (the one feature i never cared about on OVF is the dof preview since it's barely useful at all (actually it's quite good on my 645 bronica but the screen is big enough for it to work,)
the ability tio see your real exposure though is a stunning tool. (i know i can chimp before, and do some times, I also have enough experience to have a good feel for what i will get, but what a learning tool never mind just damn convenient to ensure you get what you want WYSIWYG (or close to it)is a killer tool
02-10-2012, 02:59 PM   #528
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
This has to be the number one reason for me to want a Good EVF or at least the display working that way . Hopefully this is how the K-01 works as it is really a killer feature (the one feature i never cared about on OVF is the dof preview since it's barely useful at all (actually it's quite good on my 645 bronica but the screen is big enough for it to work,)
the ability tio see your real exposure though is a stunning tool. (i know i can chimp before, and do some times, I also have enough experience to have a good feel for what i will get, but what a learning tool never mind just damn convenient to ensure you get what you want WYSIWYG (or close to it)is a killer tool
For me, the ability to preview exposure is the *only* reason to have an EVF. But this is limited by the accuracy of the EVF itself. Dots and refresh rate are the specs for EVFs but that's only part of it.

Few if any EVFs have the dynamic range near the sensor's, and have to be backed up by tools like blinkies and live histograms (alas, also often inaccurate).
02-10-2012, 07:30 PM   #529
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Additionally, the GH2 can also show you DOF effects in real-time.
My E-PL2 works this way - shows real exposure with real DOF. I didn't realize there is such a difference between the various implementations.

These features really came in handy in shots like these where I could see the result before pressing the shutter button:





02-10-2012, 10:51 PM   #530
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Someone needs to send the Fuji Guys a message n Twitter and clarify this. I would be surprised if you could not control it on the XP1. Every EVF I have used (which is only 2) you have had control over this.
02-11-2012, 08:38 AM   #531
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The Black K-01 is at #100 and #4,804 in Camera & Photo (See Top 100 in Camera & Photo)
The Yellow K-01 is at #99 and #4,742 in Camera & Photo (See Top 100 in Camera & Photo)
The White is no long ranked in the top 100, but Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #7,184 in Camera & Photo.

Olympus is occupying #2, #3, #5, & #6.

The all black body with kit lens is t #2
The silver/black body with kit lens is at #5
The Black body only is #3
The silver/black body only is at #6

Fuji has crashed all the way down to #11. BUT..... that is because Amazon is no longer taking pre-orders. They have sold more than the expect to receive on the first shipment.

For comparison the Pentax K-5 body which has been on the market for over a year and costs considerably more is checking in at:
Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #355 in Camera & Photo (See Top 100 in Camera & Photo)

We will see some shifting after reviews are out people get to see how product really perform, but I don't think we are going to see a huge shift. Fuji is probably limited by the fact they wont be making enough XP1s to meet demand. Like the X100 it will be back ordered most of the year.

Obviously these numbers only represent the North American market. Maybe someone in Europe and Asia can post some similar sales rankings.

IMHO the K-01 is a test to replace the K-r with a mirror-less unit to see how well a big mirror-less is received. If the K-01 tanks we will see a K-r replacement. If the K-01 is a success there will be no K-r replacement.

What is the value of K-mount? I personally think the value of K-mount is irrelevant for a mirror-less design and in some ways it is a negative. But for the people who really think the K-mount adds value to the the K-01, tell me how we quantify? Sales are not off to a good start, and sales are ultimately what this is about. Most of the pre-orders are probably from existing Pentax users, which shows you how small a group that is. The Fuji has no existing mount and I have no doubt it will be a run away success at twice the price of the K-01. Why is that?

People have mentioned the following strengths/advantages of the K-01:
Price
16MP Sony sensor
K-mount/legacy support

None of those strengths seem to be good enough to over come the weaknesses of the camera.
Big and brickish
No EVF or OVF
Design that is fugly mixed at best

There is actually a lot of information that can be distilled from the Amazon numbers. Olympus is selling more bodies with kit lens that just bodies only. These appeal more to people not already invested in M4/3. I would bet that Olympus is pulling a lot of new users in with this body. But sales of body only are almost as high which means a lot of existing M4/3 users are upgrading. Olympus is going to have a runaway success. They are crushing Sony even with the sensor difference/advantage.

Fuji has not Kit option, and all of its sales are new X-mount users. Since they only offer 3 primes they are only appealing to a certain user group. This is a range finder camera which is also a rather narrow slice of the market. Or is it? Maybe people are tired of the super slow, super soft, super zooms that manufactures keep cranking out and want more specialized product. Is part of the success of the Fuji/Olympus do to people being tired of companies cranking out crappy plastic toy products?

How many new users will Pentax gain from this, and how many existing users will migrate to Fuji, Olympus, or even Sony? Will it be a net gain or a net loss? Fuji is generating 3x the gross revenue from every XP-1 as Pentax is from the K-01. When you attract higher end users with more money, you make more money.
02-11-2012, 08:53 AM   #532
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02-11-2012, 09:03 AM   #533
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The Black K-01 is at #100 and #4,804 in Camera & Photo (See Top 100 in Camera & Photo)
The Yellow K-01 is at #99 and #4,742 in Camera & Photo (See Top 100 in Camera & Photo)
The White is no long ranked in the top 100, but Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #7,184 in Camera & Photo.

Olympus is occupying #2, #3, #5, & #6.

The all black body with kit lens is t #2
The silver/black body with kit lens is at #5
The Black body only is #3
The silver/black body only is at #6

Fuji has crashed all the way down to #11
It's theatre of absurd....
02-11-2012, 09:04 AM   #534
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The Black K-01 is at #100 and #4,804 in Camera & Photo (See Top 100 in Camera & Photo)
The Yellow K-01 is at #99 and #4,742 in Camera & Photo (See Top 100 in Camera & Photo)
The White is no long ranked in the top 100, but Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #7,184 in Camera & Photo.

Olympus is occupying #2, #3, #5, & #6.

The all black body with kit lens is t #2
The silver/black body with kit lens is at #5
The Black body only is #3
The silver/black body only is at #6

Fuji has crashed all the way down to #11. BUT..... that is because Amazon is no longer taking pre-orders. They have sold more than the expect to receive on the first shipment.

For comparison the Pentax K-5 body which has been on the market for over a year and costs considerably more is checking in at:
Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #355 in Camera & Photo (See Top 100 in Camera & Photo)

We will see some shifting after reviews are out people get to see how product really perform, but I don't think we are going to see a huge shift. Fuji is probably limited by the fact they wont be making enough XP1s to meet demand. Like the X100 it will be back ordered most of the year.

Obviously these numbers only represent the North American market. Maybe someone in Europe and Asia can post some similar sales rankings.

IMHO the K-01 is a test to replace the K-r with a mirror-less unit to see how well a big mirror-less is received. If the K-01 tanks we will see a K-r replacement. If the K-01 is a success there will be no K-r replacement.

What is the value of K-mount? I personally think the value of K-mount is irrelevant for a mirror-less design and in some ways it is a negative. But for the people who really think the K-mount adds value to the the K-01, tell me how we quantify? Sales are not off to a good start, and sales are ultimately what this is about. Most of the pre-orders are probably from existing Pentax users, which shows you how small a group that is. The Fuji has no existing mount and I have no doubt it will be a run away success at twice the price of the K-01. Why is that?

People have mentioned the following strengths/advantages of the K-01:
Price
16MP Sony sensor
K-mount/legacy support

None of those strengths seem to be good enough to over come the weaknesses of the camera.
Big and brickish
No EVF or OVF
Design that is fugly mixed at best

There is actually a lot of information that can be distilled from the Amazon numbers. Olympus is selling more bodies with kit lens that just bodies only. These appeal more to people not already invested in M4/3. I would bet that Olympus is pulling a lot of new users in with this body. But sales of body only are almost as high which means a lot of existing M4/3 users are upgrading. Olympus is going to have a runaway success. They are crushing Sony even with the sensor difference/advantage.

Fuji has not Kit option, and all of its sales are new X-mount users. Since they only offer 3 primes they are only appealing to a certain user group. This is a range finder camera which is also a rather narrow slice of the market. Or is it? Maybe people are tired of the super slow, super soft, super zooms that manufactures keep cranking out and want more specialized product. Is part of the success of the Fuji/Olympus do to people being tired of companies cranking out crappy plastic toy products?

How many new users will Pentax gain from this, and how many existing users will migrate to Fuji, Olympus, or even Sony? Will it be a net gain or a net loss? Fuji is generating 3x the gross revenue from every XP-1 as Pentax is from the K-01. When you attract higher end users with more money, you make more money.

Fuji has no place to move up from the X Pro (not that anyone would have money to do so anyway). I doubt many people are buying it as their primary system -- more an add on "fun" camera for when you don't want an SLR with you. Nice if you can afford it.

My hope (and I think the hope of many here) is that the K-01 introduces more people to Pentax, thereby creating more of a base to feed cameras above the K5 (maybe full frame). The K-01 is not a "pre-order" type camera. It is the type of camera someone stops in at Best Buy or other big box store, handles for a little bit and then takes home. The key to sales here have nothing to do with preorders and everything to do with placement after its release. If Ricoh can actually get Pentax cameras into stores, people will buy them.

How many Fuji X Pros will be sold in Best Buy?

Pentaxians for all their love of Pentax also are cheap and so they will generally wait a month or two to buy, knowing that the price will come down by quite a bit in that time.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but judging a camera like this by preorder sales is beyond silly.
02-11-2012, 09:07 AM   #535
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The Black K-01 is at #100 and #4,804 in Camera & Photo (See Top 100 in Camera & Photo)
The Yellow K-01 is at #99 and #4,742 in Camera & Photo (See Top 100 in Camera & Photo)
The White is no long ranked in the top 100, but Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #7,184 in Camera & Photo.

Olympus is occupying #2, #3, #5, & #6.

The all black body with kit lens is t #2
The silver/black body with kit lens is at #5
The Black body only is #3
The silver/black body only is at #6

Fuji has crashed all the way down to #11. BUT..... that is because Amazon is no longer taking pre-orders. They have sold more than the expect to receive on the first shipment.

For comparison the Pentax K-5 body which has been on the market for over a year and costs considerably more is checking in at:
Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #355 in Camera & Photo (See Top 100 in Camera & Photo)

We will see some shifting after reviews are out people get to see how product really perform, but I don't think we are going to see a huge shift. Fuji is probably limited by the fact they wont be making enough XP1s to meet demand. Like the X100 it will be back ordered most of the year.
...

How many new users will Pentax gain from this, and how many existing users will migrate to Fuji, Olympus, or even Sony? Will it be a net gain or a net loss? Fuji is generating 3x the gross revenue from every XP-1 as Pentax is from the K-01. When you attract higher end users with more money, you make more money.
Do a Google Trend analysis of the three brands in question and you'll see that Pentax lags far behind the other two in brand conversations. Let's use this as a proxy for Brand Awareness. Even before the launch of these three cameras, Fuji and Olympus had much great Brand Awareness than Pentax, and the Amazon numbers may be reflecting that. As others have suggested, pre-ordering a camera is something that only the very camera-knowledgable even consider doing. So if Nikon launches a D3100s tomorrow with just small tweaks, Amazon pre-orders will likely be low but Nikon would probably sell more D3100s in 1 one month than what the others combined sell in a year once the Nikon sales and marketing machine gets wound up.

Unbeknownst to us, Pentax has a goal of how many K-01s they want to sell. How many they need to sell to break even, how many will be considered a modest success, and how many will be considered a hit. Those numbers are based on a number of things - the performance of past models, the depth of the distribution and sales channels, and post launch marketing and advertising.

The Amazon numbers, while interesting, are just one data point among many and are by no means definitive or a predictor of future success.
02-11-2012, 10:32 AM - 1 Like   #536
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Do a Google Trend analysis of the three brands in question and you'll see that Pentax lags far behind the other two in brand conversations. Let's use this as a proxy for Brand Awareness. Even before the launch of these three cameras, Fuji and Olympus had much great Brand Awareness than Pentax, and the Amazon numbers may be reflecting that. As others have suggested, pre-ordering a camera is something that only the very camera-knowledgable even consider doing. So if Nikon launches a D3100s tomorrow with just small tweaks, Amazon pre-orders will likely be low but Nikon would probably sell more D3100s in 1 one month than what the others combined sell in a year once the Nikon sales and marketing machine gets wound up.

Unbeknownst to us, Pentax has a goal of how many K-01s they want to sell. How many they need to sell to break even, how many will be considered a modest success, and how many will be considered a hit. Those numbers are based on a number of things - the performance of past models, the depth of the distribution and sales channels, and post launch marketing and advertising.

The Amazon numbers, while interesting, are just one data point among many and are by no means definitive or a predictor of future success.
I agree with you. Amazon is just one set of numbers. It has its flaws and it shortcoming, but if anyone has a better one please post the information. I actually posted in a previous thread asking people to contribute other sales information form other sources that are available.

Amazon happens to be a pretty good representation of the market (in North America) and probably favors entry level cameras over higher cost enthusiast cameras. I would expect to find a larger number of Fuji XP-1s are sold through B&H and Adorama than through Amazon.

Why does Pentax lag Fuji is brand conversation?

Fuji has not made a ILC in 5 years. They have been out of the game. How can a company come off the sidelines and overtake Pentax in brand awareness in a matter of months? It is my opinion that it has to do with product. Fuji is making exciting/appealing products that people are talking about. Pentax is not. I agree with you that Pentax lags the other two in brand conversations. I think that is a result of what Pentax has done, or failed to do as the case may be.

Last edited by Winder; 02-11-2012 at 10:39 AM.
02-11-2012, 10:35 AM   #537
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I remember when the K-5 was doing really well on Amazon (it still is for its age) and the Pentax Apologists were quick to point out the success of the camera on Amazon at that time. Now it seems that Amazon is not a good source for sales rankings.

If anyone actually has a better source to gauge the sales of the products please list it. Don't just be the guy who bitches and whines about it. Be the guy who actually has some information. Be the guy who proves me wrong with real numbers.

There are a dozen threads on the forum for Pentax Apologists to discuss the K-01 and reassure themselves just how awesome the camera is and how the rest of the world just does not understand the revolutionary vision of Pentax. You guys can get together and do your group hugs and provide support groups. I have kept all most all of my K-01 comments to this thread. I have not gone around to every K-01 love fest thread and commented. Don't get me wrong I appreciate all the extra attention you guys are giving the thread. You guys keep bumping it up and you have made it the biggest thread in the K-01 section. Thanks guys!
02-11-2012, 10:37 AM   #538
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I remember when the K-5 was doing really well on Amazon (it still is for its age) and the Pentax Apologists were quick to point out the success of the camera on Amazon at that time. Now it seems that Amazon is not a good source for sales rankings.

If anyone actually has a better source to gauge the sales of the products please list it. Don't just be the guy who bitches and whines about it. Be the guy who actually has some information. Be the guy who proves me wrong with real numbers.

There are a dozen threads on the forum for Pentax Apologists to discuss the K-01 and reassure themselves just how awesome the camera is and how the rest of the world just does not understand the revolutionary vision of Pentax. You guys can get together and do your group hugs and provide support groups. I have kept all most all of my K-01 comments to this thread. I have not gone around to every K-01 love fest thread and commented. Don't get me wrong I appreciate all the extra attention you guys are giving the thread. You guys keep bumping it up and you have made it the biggest thread in the K-01 section. Thanks guys!
Go away, troll!
02-11-2012, 10:47 AM   #539
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
Go away, troll!
Another post from someone who has no real numbers or information to provide.

Ignore this thread if it bothers you so much. You can't; can you?
02-11-2012, 11:04 AM   #540
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Another post from someone who has no real numbers or information to provide.

Ignore this thread if it bothers you so much. You can't; can you?
No...not as long as you refer to folks who aren't critical of the K-01 as "apologists". If you don't like being labeled...then don't do it to others.
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