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02-04-2012, 10:20 AM   #16
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WPW: I guess I hadn't considered before the ramification of buying APS lenses only for the system as being a barrier to FF entry. It caught me a bit to my own surprise actually - and is a very good point. I've tried to make sure the lenses that I've purchased would work on the mythical FF (not completely perfect in this regard...) - but I agree that not everybody (very few maybe) actually work under that assumption. APS lenses could be made to work in a crop mode on a FF? Would that be a possible appeasement - or is it still a deal breaker for an upgrade path?
Also - Thanks for your contribution on the eye-level finder as being necessary ~25% of the time. I guess there are more than a cursory percentage of situations where that would be welcome on the K-01 as well, and that seems to be the general consensus. In the situation that the K-01 is your only camera - not being able to use it for 25% of your shots would be a real hinderance.


Last edited by spade111; 02-04-2012 at 10:21 AM. Reason: added comments
02-04-2012, 10:46 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
What is to figure out? To me, it is a scaled down K-5 with no viewfinder. Any mysteries beyond that are hard to fathom.

Jason
I don't mean figure it out as in the technical details of the camera, I mean figure it out as in "will this camera work for me?"

This extends to the sales and marketing side of Pentax as well. They need a clear plan to sell this camera.

People moving up from a P&S, and those buying their first camera might not consider this camera because it looks odd (personally I like the way it looks), or because it is not a classic DSLR styled camera. This could be a real hindrance for people to accept this camera.

Veteran DSLR users will not jump to this camera because it is not an upgrade to their K-5.
02-04-2012, 01:38 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by KungPOW Quote
I don't mean figure it out as in the technical details of the camera, I mean figure it out as in "will this camera work for me?"

This extends to the sales and marketing side of Pentax as well. They need a clear plan to sell this camera.

People moving up from a P&S, and those buying their first camera might not consider this camera because it looks odd (personally I like the way it looks), or because it is not a classic DSLR styled camera. This could be a real hindrance for people to accept this camera.

Veteran DSLR users will not jump to this camera because it is not an upgrade to their K-5.
Perhaps I am a small slice of the market. My wife won't touch a dSLR or even a manual film camera, yet she takes more photographs than all 4 of the rest of us combined. My children each have a P&S, but they just use their phones now. I think they've all lost their chargers.

What will be interesting to watch is how many people are taking anything more composed than a party snapshot for Facebook or InstaGram 5 years from now.

To me the combination of sensor, video (potential) capability, and price are compelling. I have all the cameras I need with viewfinders attached - and better viewfinders, at that. The (comparatively) large body volume actually will help me hold the camera at chin height looking slightly down at the LCD with my elbows at my sides. I'm convinced I can make that work for me. If Mark Newson took that into consideration, good for him.

If my experiments with an MESuper turn out to work with this camera perhaps Pentax will need to "teach" people how to hold the camera as they formerly did in SLR manuals.
02-04-2012, 01:49 PM   #19
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Pentax hit a home run with this camera. In Dec 2010 I purchased the Panasonic GH2 instead of the K-5 because it had manual video control and 1080p24,25,30 /720p60 so now with the K-01 I have that and more with my K-mount lenses without an adapter.

02-04-2012, 01:56 PM   #20
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It won't be a stepping stone for the vast majority of the people who buy it because they don't want a dSLR and they won't want a dSLR in the future. Upgrade path is irrelevant.

For them the K-01 will be a better image, excellent video and interesting design camera that goes in a purse or jacket pocket, or maybe a small bag with a small zoom lens.
02-04-2012, 03:05 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by spade111 Quote
.....in a town with several other photography classes) - there is a consensus that they would like to learn, and engage in a newer and more capable style of photography. They are literally just waiting for a solution that might offer them the right blend of:

1. Price of admission
2. Ease of use
3. Low intimidation factor
4. Image quality: the opportunity to achieve reasonable image quality / headroom with which to preserve detail / recover mistakes
5. Upgradeability should their interest in photography persist.....
I mostly agree with you; and applaud your post.

I have some comments around the edges of your discussion:

1. I think its as much a stepping stone for Pentax/Ricoh as it is the for the customers that buy it. Pentax engineers and management will learn from this camera in its application to future mirrorless cameras, perhaps even a FF one.

2. I understand the principle of building a product to a certain pricing target, but it annoys me when manufacturers handicap a camera even though there is no impact on price. For example, Including a EVF would make this camera more expensive to produce, so i'm ok with that. Making this camera such that an EVF can be added on as an accessory would likely have caused no measurable increase in cost, and would probably result in increased profits due to sale of a potential EVF accessory.

3. A second unnecessary handicapping of the K01 is leaving off a shutter cable port. Shutter cable ports are particularly useful for Bulb mode (which they included for some reason because they didn't include a port to use it) for long exposures, and also for mounting it on a tripod and precisely actuating the camera without causing detrimental movement due to a slow shutter. What did they do? The put the IR remote actuator port on the front side of the camera where its least useful for Bulb use, except when shooting images of oneself. Apparently, Pentax thinks the only customers for the K01 are ones that want to take pictures of themselves , which makes me wonder why they didn't arrange the lens to point backwards towards the photographer, all the time

4. I think when you build a camera, one ought to consider as many types of customers as possible. Sure the principle target audience is probably the PS crowd. But there are many enthusiasts such as myself that buy more portable cameras as 2nd cameras. A few days ago, i was convinced that i would buy this camera; now because of this silly lack of a shutter cable port (which has been on many generations of film cameras, i will now consider a Fuji or Sony mirrorless body.
02-04-2012, 06:00 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by spade111 Quote
Do you feel that the increase in sensor quality, autofocus, the addition of WR as well as the other items on your list that maybe did not make the written version - are reason enough to upgrade from your K-r? Would that 1,200 dollars ever be earmarked for new glass instead of a new body?
The real answer to those questions lies with budget. I embarked on my journey looking for a sub-$1000 means of taking hockey photos of my boys. The K-r does a nice job of that and if I were to spend another $1000 on a 70-200mm f/2.8, it would likely be all the kit I would ever need and likewise, the K-01 would meet that need just as well. However, as my interest diversified into shooting portraits, candids and pretty much everything else that crosses my field of view, my wish list grows. Much of what I covet are convenience features so a new body really isn't a necessity. I suppose with the exception of WR. There's a whole world of things I would shoot if I wasn't super concerned with my kit getting ruined by getting a little wet. Therefore, I will continue to evaluate my needs as I learn and will likely upgrade in the next 12-18 months.

As for investing in glass instead of body, I would like to ultimately do both. Right now I am renting a Sigma 70-200 for a month to cover hockey districts and playoffs. In theory, I could do that for the next several seasons and not have spent the cost of that lens new. I really like the challenge of shooting candids with manual focus lenses. I also love the results I get from my older lenses. I already have a Tamron 18-250 as a decent catch-all AF lens and I plan to grab the new DA-L 50mm 1.8 (that's my speculation) when it comes out because I really like the 50mm length. I'm not saying I wouldn't use a 28-70(ish) f/2.8 AF lens if I had one, but so far, I don't mind manual focusing with primes and zooming with my feet in those situations.

I guess at the end of the day, who knows. I'm really very new to this hobby and 9 months ago I would have laughed at you if you suggested that I'd have 13 lenses today and be renting a 14th. But so far, everything has been cheap estate/garage sale type finds with the exception of the 18-250. I'm snapping them up to experiment and learn and I suspect I'll end up selling or trading most as I learn what I like.

I suppose I'm saying that for me, the K-01 would have been a stepping stone in the same way the K-r will end up being my first step into a new lifetime hobby. I don't pretend to be the norm in that respect. I'm willing to bet, as others have mentioned, that most never go beyond that first step. I think the K-01 has the potential to grab more first-time customers than a more traditional DSLR and if 1 out of 100 truly embrace the hobby and become longtime customers, then I think at the end of the day, Pentax will have more customers moving through the upgrade path. You have to get the customer on that 1st step. Everyone warns newbies doing research that "you are not buying a camera, you are buying into a system". I read that over and over when doing my research. I'll be honest, I looked very hard at the Nex system. However, everything I've always know about Sony Electronics is that they love to re-invent the wheel every few years. In video (beta, Mavica, BlueRay...) , in audio (anyone remember the minidisk?), memorystick... on and on. Sometimes they win, and more often they lose and they abandon their format. That scared me. I have a Canon AE-1 that my mom had given me and I shot a couple rolls of film with back in my 20s. When I checked to see if I could use my lens I found out I couldn't. But really, it came down to high SO performance since I knew my target was going to be low lit ice arenas and Pentax ruled that space especially when you include a lens like the DA-L 55-300 at around $800. I really do think the K-01 having all that the K-r had going for it and more, combined with being wrapped in a different looking package and being of a mirrorless design that is the current buzz will translate into sales. To your original question, any new Pentax DSLR customer is standing on stepping stone #1... some will embrace the hobby and upgrade and most probably won't. All will be walking around with the potential to take great, friend impressing, photographs and that will increase brand recognition.

On second thought, I think I'll hang on to all my old glass until the inevitable laws of supply and demand drive the prices sky high for all the K-01 newbies :-)

Last edited by HockeyDad; 02-04-2012 at 06:06 PM.
02-04-2012, 06:20 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
What is to figure out? To me, it is a scaled down K-5 with no viewfinder. Any mysteries beyond that are hard to fathom.

Jason
And to others, it is a scale up iPhone, with much better quality, much better low-light performance, and much greater potential for photographic growth. I suspect this group, the Tumblr, Instagram, group is more the target market than you or I are.

02-04-2012, 07:20 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by spade111 Quote
WPW: I guess I hadn't considered before the ramification of buying APS lenses only for the system as being a barrier to FF entry. It caught me a bit to my own surprise actually - and is a very good point. I've tried to make sure the lenses that I've purchased would work on the mythical FF (not completely perfect in this regard...) - but I agree that not everybody (very few maybe) actually work under that assumption. APS lenses could be made to work in a crop mode on a FF? Would that be a possible appeasement - or is it still a deal breaker for an upgrade path?
Also - Thanks for your contribution on the eye-level finder as being necessary ~25% of the time. I guess there are more than a cursory percentage of situations where that would be welcome on the K-01 as well, and that seems to be the general consensus. In the situation that the K-01 is your only camera - not being able to use it for 25% of your shots would be a real hinderance.
You can use the DA lenses on a FF body and I looked at several of them on my film bodies. The problem is they vignette, to varying degrees, and most are NOT likely to appeal to someone upgrading to a FF to maximize quality. I personally think the likelihood of Pentax making a FF body decreases every day as smaller sensors increase in performance but I've held on to a few of my FA and Sigma lenses, just in case.

I will have to admit I was hoping Pentax would make a mirrorless body with a new mount, and native adapter to use K-mount lenses, that was more like the rumored Olympus OM-D. I've now started planning what to sell to finance the purchase of said OM-D (assuming it is close to the rumored specs).
02-04-2012, 08:39 PM   #25
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Personally, I think the target market is the hipster who discovered photography with the thrift store K1000.

The Tumblr/Instagram people will never give up their phone cameras.

You will know this strategy has worked if the K-01 shows up on the cover of Time magazine. The hipsters having long since moved on.
02-04-2012, 09:38 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
And to others, it is a scale up iPhone, with much better quality, much better low-light performance, and much greater potential for photographic growth. I suspect this group, the Tumblr, Instagram, group is more the target market than you or I are.
It would need native 3G/4G or Wi-Fi and a touch screen OLED keyboard to qualify with the InstaGram set.

You know, the 1%



Of total users, who use 93% of the available bandwidth
02-05-2012, 09:51 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
I have some comments around the edges of your discussion:

...

3. A second unnecessary handicapping of the K01 is leaving off a shutter cable port. Shutter cable ports are particularly useful for Bulb mode (which they included for some reason because they didn't include a port to use it) for long exposures, and also for mounting it on a tripod and precisely actuating the camera without causing detrimental movement due to a slow shutter. What did they do? The put the IR remote actuator port on the front side of the camera where its least useful for Bulb use, except when shooting images of oneself. Apparently, Pentax thinks the only customers for the K01 are ones that want to take pictures of themselves , which makes me wonder why they didn't arrange the lens to point backwards towards the photographer, all the time
I do heartily agree with your observations, but since this seems to be the replacement for the k-r, Pentax's consumer dSLR line has not included the shutter cable port historically (at least in the k-x and the k-r) -- as a result, I understand why Pentax did not include that feature on the K-01.
02-06-2012, 03:23 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by WJW Quote
I think most of the people who are new to Pentax that buy the camera are going to buy DA lenses so upgrading to a FF body WITH THE SAME LENSES would not be an option.
Why wouldn't a Pentax FF camera just operate the same way as the Nikon D4 or D700 and simply auto-crop when it detects an APSC lens being attached? They may not be full frame images, but every lens works. Is there something preventing Pentax lenses from being identified this way by the camera? If so, a simple menu setting would do in a pinch.
02-06-2012, 07:46 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by anthony mazzeri Quote
Why wouldn't a Pentax FF camera just operate the same way as the Nikon D4 or D700 and simply auto-crop when it detects an APSC lens being attached? They may not be full frame images, but every lens works. Is there something preventing Pentax lenses from being identified this way by the camera? If so, a simple menu setting would do in a pinch.
Why switch to a FF body and crop everything back to APS-C?
02-06-2012, 12:41 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by WJW Quote
Why switch to a FF body and crop everything back to APS-C?
Because:
a. perhaps those are the only lenses you have available at the moment, or
b. perhaps you wanted to carry smaller or lightweight lenses for an afternoon walk.
c. perhaps you have the FF camera but your wife has a crop frame camera with the same mount. Why limit your FF frame camera to only the lenses you may have carried on a trip.
etc.

Some of the Pentax DA lenses work fine on a full frame camera, e.g. DA-200, DA-300 and i forget the rest, but there is a list on PF somwhere.

I always look for manufacturers that give me the most flexibility when using their products, because its hard to predict when one might have need for it.
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