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02-28-2012, 06:09 PM   #181
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QuoteOriginally posted by isaacc7 Quote
QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
I think Pentax's strength is in designing competitive optics and cameras with good build, good features, and good ergonomy. They just need to build on that. The K-mount is irrelevant to any new customer and I think it's now their main weakness, not their strength.
I disagree. The only reason I have ever used a Pentax camera was to use the lenses they make.
What are you disagreeing on exactly? I mentioned their optics (lenses) as a strength already.

QuoteOriginally posted by isaacc7 Quote
Of course the other half of this forum consists of people saying that they like it and do want to use it, do you see the same disconnect I do?
I am not surprised that people that have a collection of K mount lenses find this camera useful. But that is irrelevant for the point I argue, which is that I don't expect this camera to bring many new customers to Pentax - I would find that very surprising indeed. My perspective is simply different than yours - I don't criticize (or like) the camera based on my needs, but based on objective criteria. I think as a new customer wanting to get a camera. Or simply put, the question for me is: "Can I recommend Pentax to a close friend?" Note that the question is different from "Can I sell Pentax to a mom that walks into my store?"

QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
I spent 25 years in retail and I can tell you good products do not sell themselves, good marketing sells products and in many cases bad ones as well.
This is a complex topic that deserves its own thread, but my point was that marketing is no silver bullet. Furthermore, if Pentax didn't get good marketing when they were making special products (K10D), it's a bit late to invest into marketing at a point when they have even less to offer in contrast to the competition.

02-28-2012, 06:50 PM   #182
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QuoteOriginally posted by isaacc7 Quote
Again with the "People that like the k-01 are idiots" idea.
I am arguing against a particular argument for buying the camera. No doubt some will be offended by the realisation that their self-justifications are contradictory or have a basis in emotion rather than fact. But since I can't control the emotions of others, that is no longer my concern.

It would pay you to distinguish between attacking an argument (which I do all the time) and attacking a person (which I strive to never do -- and sometimes fail). However, since you showed absolutely no interest in addressing my argument, I imagine this advice will fall on deaf ears.

QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
There you go again, Robyn.
Well, John, you can't even be bothered to spell my name correctly, which demonstrates your recurring attitude quite well.
02-28-2012, 06:57 PM   #183
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
What are you disagreeing on exactly? I mentioned their optics (lenses) as a strength already.
Laurentiu, like me you expect people to actually address the points you are making. It is clear we are in the wrong place for that. Time to leave (again) methinks!
02-28-2012, 07:13 PM   #184
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
I am arguing against a particular argument for buying the camera. No doubt some will be offended by the realisation that their self-justifications are contradictory or have a basis in emotion rather than fact. But since I can't control the emotions of others, that is no longer my concern.
The folks who have said they're getting the camera, here on this forum, have laid out their reasons quite well, from what I've seen. I haven't seen a single person say something along the lines of, "OMG! This camera is so KEWT and it is YELLOW and OMG!!1! I just luv those cute buttons on top!"

I am getting it because I am partially disabled. Three severe attacks of optic neuritis (look it up) damaged my peripheral vision. Along with the inevitable cognitive slowdown that comes along with the onset of multiple sclerosis, the way that dSLRs work, with the tiny, quickly flashing numbers in the viewfinder and on various screens on camera bodies, make those cameras very difficult for me to use. Is this an emotional reason or is it a factual reason, sir?

I am frankly starting to get extremely insulted at the continuing charges that I'm getting this camera because I'm just emotional, and/or not serious about photography, or because I like the nice shiny colors, or whatever. You people might think about walking ten steps in my shoes. I'm not sure you'd make it. I'm positive you wouldn't make a mile.

02-28-2012, 07:20 PM   #185
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QuoteOriginally posted by ibkc Quote
The folks who have said they're getting the camera, here on this forum, have laid out their reasons quite well, from what I've seen. I haven't seen a single person say something along the lines of, "OMG! This camera is so KEWT and it is YELLOW and OMG!!1! I just luv those cute buttons on top!"

I am getting it because I am partially disabled. Three severe attacks of optic neuritis (look it up) damaged my peripheral vision. Along with the inevitable cognitive slowdown that comes along with the onset of multiple sclerosis, the way that dSLRs work, with the tiny, quickly flashing numbers in the viewfinder and on various screens on camera bodies, make those cameras very difficult for me to use. Is this an emotional reason is is it a factual reason, sir?

I am frankly starting to get extremely insulted at the continuing charges that I'm getting this camera because I'm just emotional, and/or not serious about photography, or because I like the nice shiny colors, or whatever. You people might think about walking ten steps in my shoes. I'm not sure you'd make it. I'm positive you wouldn't make a mile.
Sorry to hear about your physical disabilities. I hope that the K-01 works out for you.

I agree 100% that certain people (not a majority) have gone beyond judging the K-01 and into judging the people that are buying it. That's a line that should not be crossed.

As the OP of this thread, I'm going to ask the admins to close it if this discussion continues to devolve.

Everyone, the purpose of this thread is to discuss what others outside of the photography world are saying about the K-01. Simple as that. Please try to keep to the subject. If you don't like the camera and want the world to know about, start your own damn thread or participate in threads more appropriate to your ax. Get a blog too, while you're at it.

Have a nice day.
02-28-2012, 07:52 PM   #186
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
I am arguing against a particular argument for buying the camera. No doubt some will be offended by the realisation that their self-justifications are contradictory or have a basis in emotion rather than fact. But since I can't control the emotions of others, that is no longer my concern.
Whatever argument you have made before, this
QuoteQuote:
I doubt Bose has ever made a product worth buying. They succeed by marketing an inferior product as "different" or better through "design".

From the responses here, it seems that a good number of people are happy with Pentax doing the same. I am not.

That really is the bottom line.
is just an opinion, and a rather boorish one at that. You paint the k-01 as an inferior camera and imply the only reason people would buy them is because they have been fooled by marketing. I also note that you didn't respond to any of the questions I had in my response.

QuoteQuote:
It would pay you to distinguish between attacking an argument (which I do all the time) and attacking a person (which I strive to never do -- and sometimes fail). However, since you showed absolutely no interest in addressing my argument, I imagine this advice will fall on deaf ears.
I will respond to an argument that I disagree with, or with a comment that is out of line, the quoted bit was out of line IMO.
02-28-2012, 09:03 PM   #187
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
What are you disagreeing on exactly? I mentioned their optics (lenses) as a strength already.
This thread is long enough that I'm starting to lose track of who said what. If I've quoted the wrong person I apologize. Somewhere back a ways someone essentially said that this camera wouldn't appeal to people who already had Pentax equipment. Later on the opinion was raised that the k mount was the big weakness for Pentax. Apparently you do agree that the lenses are where the action is for Pentax, so it's a compelling reason why someone might want the k-01, right?


QuoteQuote:
I am not surprised that people that have a collection of K mount lenses find this camera useful. But that is irrelevant for the point I argue, which is that I don't expect this camera to bring many new customers to Pentax - I would find that very surprising indeed. My perspective is simply different than yours - I don't criticize (or like) the camera based on my needs, but based on objective criteria. I think as a new customer wanting to get a camera. Or simply put, the question for me is: "Can I recommend Pentax to a close friend?" Note that the question is different from "Can I sell Pentax to a mom that walks into my store?"
See, that's the thing, the k-01 is bringing me back to Pentax. If it did for me, why wouldn't it for other people? I would recommend the camera in a heartbeat if I thought it was right for them. I sold camera gear from 1997 till 2006 at Penn camera in the DC area. We had a really good selection of all sorts of stuff relating to photography. One thing I learned there was that every item we sold, no matter how nasty or unappealing it was to me, was right for someone. I guess I'm comfortable knowing that there are a lot of cameras and a lot of people out there, I'm not the only one that would like the k-01. I have at least one friend that might find it appealing. She is currently using an Olympus MILC but wishes she could use her Pentax lenses (from her LX system) without it being so fiddly. She's not currently a Pentax shooter, but it could bring her back.

It's true that I've been called odd a few times in my life, but I don't think I'm all that different. Or at least I don't think I have tastes and camera requirements that would be so out of the mainstream. This is why I'm struck by all of the FUD about this camera, I think it's amazing. The very first time I saw it I was thunderstruck. I'll admit it wasn't necessarily in a good way at first, but the design grew on me as I studied it more. This is going to be the first interchangeable lens digital camera I've ever owned. Technically, I guess that makes me an upgrader from a point and shoot. I have shot for a lot of years with film equipment, mostly larger formats or super basic (but nice) 35mm cameras. In all cases I was using killer lenses, sometimes from Pentax. The LX was the last small SLR I ever used, and I hope will be the last one I ever use. After shooting with screens and rangefinders, I have no patience for the keyhole perspective of SLRs.

In short, I'm excited about this camera, it is bringing me to Pentax. I consider myself a new Pentax user because I haven't touched a Pentax camera of any kind in... 12 years? The last Pentax product I used was a Digital spot meter. I joined this forum to share my excitement and to learn about the k-01, but instead I am faced with people saying that this camera is an inferior product, that it won't appeal to non Pentax users, it will never sell well, and that they shouldn't have made it. So who am I? Am I really that weird? Luckily, there are other people excited about it on this forum too, but the doom and gloomers have to get their 2 cents in. I'm new here, but do people go into the other forums and actively denigrate cameras that they don't own? I understand getting excited about a camera, I don't understand the need to explain why you'd never get one or why others wouldn't either.

That's a really long winded way of saying that my opinion doesn't agree with yours. I've realized that I'm not really defending the camera, I'm defending myself and my decision making. IMO (and that's all we have here) the K-01 is the first (affordable) MILC worth owning. I'd like to think that the K-01 forum would be more about using and seeing examples from the K-01. I'm going to take a step back and take my own advice, it is just another camera, some people will like it and some people won't. Just please don't paint the ones that do as foolish (not aimed at you Laurentiu but for others reading this thread). And let's also wait and see what kind of response the camera has before trying to analyze it's failure.
02-28-2012, 09:57 PM   #188
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Everyone, the purpose of this thread is to discuss what others outside of the photography world are saying about the K-01. Simple as that.
Look who's talking about sticking to the subject!

QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Remember when computers all looked like this?

Source: Computer Museum



And remember the derision and mocking when Apple did this?

Source: VC&G | iMac Turns Ten

We all know how that turned out...
Come on, John, this thread has started drifting away from posting "opinions from outside the bubble" pages ago and you were no stranger to that. Is it surprising that we're now criticizing/defending products and we went from K-01 to Apple and VHS/Betamax?

02-28-2012, 10:12 PM - 1 Like   #189
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
Look who's talking about sticking to the subject!



Come on, John, this thread has started drifting away from posting "opinions from outside the bubble" pages ago and you were no stranger to that. Is it surprising that we're now criticizing/defending products and we went from K-01 to Apple and VHS/Betamax?
Look closer, I was drawing parallels between the criticism that the original iMac received and the K-01 is receiving. Both criticisms were generally from within their respective bubbles and dismissed the products as not serious and seriously flawed. The iMac, despite the criticism, went on to become a hit. If you can't see how that relates to the original premise, then I can't help you.

Furthermore, since those Apple posts I've gone on to post more opinions of the K-01 from non-photography sources and for comparison opinions of the OM-D from non-photography sources. And when I saw another thread started along a similar vein, I invited the OP to add it here, which he did.

Seriously, this manic bashing of the K-01 is really quite sad. We've got new forum members coming into this forum, hoping to share their enthusiasm. Instead, they get repeated criticisms from people who don't like the camera and believe that it's their personal responsibility to call the K-01 a failure and browbeat everyone that disagrees with them. With Pentaxians like this, who needs enemies?

At this point, I've had enough. The bickering on this forum isn't worth my time. Goodbye.
02-28-2012, 10:28 PM   #190
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Look closer, I was drawing parallels between the criticism that the original iMac received and the K-01 is receiving.
Yes, but how is "drawing parallels" falling under sharing "opinions from outside the bubble"? Drawing parallels is commentary and once people start commenting, is it that surprising that we got here? I'm not trying to pick on you, I am just pointing out that this thread has started derailing pages ago, if your intent was to restrict it to sharing "opinions from outside the bubble".
02-29-2012, 01:58 AM - 1 Like   #191
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K-01 is not targeting those who hang around here every single day. I think it is targeting those who are working in the architecture/art/design/fashion field, those who are busy making a living. K-01 is selling a lifestyle to those who subscribes Monocle & Wallpaper, not Monthly Photography. The market that are willing to accept new ideas than attaching their buying decision on their current equipments.

Assuming new target market is new to "serious" photography meaning they are more likely to be sway by new marketing campaign and to buy into the system.

Can we blame Pentax for its turn of fortune since the millennium? In our perspective, Pentax is not selling enough stuff that we want but in Pentax perspective, existing customers are not buying enough stuff that the customers said they want, or it's not feasible financially (like a full frame camera). BTW, Ricoh has a thing about niche market, their GRD customers are religiously paying for a new one every other year...... may be Ricoh is molding Pentax into another niche market player.

Last edited by Artifarty; 02-29-2012 at 02:04 AM.
02-29-2012, 04:07 AM   #192
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Look closer, I was drawing parallels between the criticism that the original iMac received and the K-01 is receiving. Both criticisms were generally from within their respective bubbles and dismissed the products as not serious and seriously flawed. The iMac, despite the criticism, went on to become a hit. If you can't see how that relates to the original premise, then I can't help you.

Furthermore, since those Apple posts I've gone on to post more opinions of the K-01 from non-photography sources and for comparison opinions of the OM-D from non-photography sources. And when I saw another thread started along a similar vein, I invited the OP to add it here, which he did.

Seriously, this manic bashing of the K-01 is really quite sad. We've got new forum members coming into this forum, hoping to share their enthusiasm. Instead, they get repeated criticisms from people who don't like the camera and believe that it's their personal responsibility to call the K-01 a failure and browbeat everyone that disagrees with them. With Pentaxians like this, who needs enemies?

At this point, I've had enough. The bickering on this forum isn't worth my time. Goodbye.
It is kind of sad. There is a very harsh tone that has come to the forum recently. People ask questions and suddenly there is pitched battle about a particular product. It isn't helpful to the forum, to Pentax, and certainly not to the people who are asking questions.
02-29-2012, 05:56 AM - 2 Likes   #193
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Seriously, this manic bashing of the K-01 is really quite sad. We've got new forum members coming into this forum, hoping to share their enthusiasm. Instead, they get repeated criticisms from people who don't like the camera and believe that it's their personal responsibility to call the K-01 a failure and browbeat everyone that disagrees with them. With Pentaxians like this, who needs enemies?
Quite seriously. I've hopped on and off this forum for information about various things (mostly in your tiny film section) for some time, but never joined. I joined when I made the decision to buy this camera, for the purpose of keeping up with release dates, finding out about hands-on reviews, and for perhaps occasionally sharing my enthusiasm, and the tone suddenly went way south. Is it me?

You guys with the extreme hostility towards this product - it's as if Pentax announced they were killing off their dSLR line and the Q, and this was going to be their only product besides a few point-and-shoots. But they didn't do that. It's just another camera; a camera for a different market (and not necessarily an "unserious photographer" market - gads, that criticism is starting to sound like a playground taunt - "You're getting a K-01? Tee hee hee, only girls and uncool kids got THOSE.")

Why the vitriol?
02-29-2012, 06:50 AM   #194
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
VHS went mass-market and won because you could record a longer program on a single tape. Beta went upmarket and courted a smaller, more elite potential customer. It was not marketing in itself that killed Beta, it was the lowest-common-denominator phenomena in a market that could support only one format.

The video format wars might also be used as an example of a bifurcation in a chaotic phase space. But, anyway.



I doubt Bose has ever made a product worth buying. They succeed by marketing an inferior product as "different" or better through "design".

From the responses here, it seems that a good number of people are happy with Pentax doing the same. I am not.

That really is the bottom line.
While you are right it was a lowest common denominator that caused VHS to win, the biggest reason it worked was because they openly licensed the product. I was there selling it Robin. They marketed it effectively as the longer record time but EP record quality was absolute crap (particularly at the beginning) Beta had Beta 3 speed which could preform as well as the best (SP) VHS speed with close to 3 times the length. Buy the time the Beta group focused on this it was already too late

Sony completely screwed the pooch on this one by having insane licensing fees and restricting who they would sell the license to. they effectively forced the development of VHS by not selling to the people who developed it

Bose BTW does not consider themselves and audio company they consider themselves a marketing company. While i personally wouldn't own any of their product as a former salesperson i completely admired their strategy. it works and it works very well. certainly i don't think it's the road for Pentax to take, but they could learn a lot from the Bose model
02-29-2012, 07:01 AM - 1 Like   #195
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QuoteOriginally posted by ibkc Quote
Quite seriously. I've hopped on and off this forum for information about various things (mostly in your tiny film section) for some time, but never joined. I joined when I made the decision to buy this camera, for the purpose of keeping up with release dates, finding out about hands-on reviews, and for perhaps occasionally sharing my enthusiasm, and the tone suddenly went way south. Is it me?

You guys with the extreme hostility towards this product - it's as if Pentax announced they were killing off their dSLR line and the Q, and this was going to be their only product besides a few point-and-shoots. But they didn't do that. It's just another camera; a camera for a different market (and not necessarily an "unserious photographer" market - gads, that criticism is starting to sound like a playground taunt - "You're getting a K-01? Tee hee hee, only girls and uncool kids got THOSE.")

Why the vitriol?
Baffles me too. but the history is there are a large number of negative people here who criticize every release and keep criticizing it. They rant on about QC because of issues some people have had with their cameras. They of course have no statistics to back up the claim that QC is crap, and completely ignore the fact that major issues like the Stain issue are dealt with quite well. QC at Pentax is from what i can see no worse than it is at any of the other brands but the way it's told here you'd think it was insanely bad. Hell all product that is made suffers failures the real issue is what is the rate of failure. I have heard Pentax fell in the 3+% range. In the electronics business (which is what cameras are now) 5% is pretty much the norm. if you wanted a 1% or less failure rate it could be done but the product price would double
Even when Pentax finally releases a FF the first complaint will be it's not a D800 or 5DMk3 LOL.
But I agree the level of vitriol lately has been silly I think some of it is rooted in unrealistic expectations of how fast Ricoh could make change. Personally i look at the number of announcements made in the last 2 months and am pretty impressed they only took ownership on october. Items like the K-01 really throw off the ultra conservative enthusiast crowd as well and the lack of a product aimed at them being announced just made it worse
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