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02-08-2012, 04:44 PM   #166
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
'Crowd sourcing' ideas, relying on 'focus groups', or designing something by committee, more often means death to good products or designs than any improvement.
I wasn't talking about any of the above.

BTW, I don't care whether Pentax or Marc Newson failed to ask real photographers about their opinion about a product prototype (which is not the same as asking someone to create a design). I agree, Pentax should not have nodded off a design that isn't ergonomic. But I expect a good designer to not even suggest design that isn't ergonomic.

FWIW, I tried the "toggle" style. Not with a K-x because I don't own one, but I simulated it. It doesn't work as quickly as the press & turn approach for me. YMMV.

Anyhow, maybe the design isn't as bad as I think it is. Maybe the K-01 will help Pentax soar to new heights.

I'm just hoping that Pentax will emphasis usability over style in their serious camera range.

02-08-2012, 05:15 PM   #167
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I'm just hoping that Pentax will emphasis usability over style in their serious camera range.

I suspect the higher-end cameras will be more traditional. However, they did make a colored 645, so ya never know...
02-08-2012, 05:29 PM   #168
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Ok, after reading through 11 pages- I am seeing a lot of disagreement on Rams- which is fine- but ultimately fairly pointless. I would be curious though, to hear what constitutes good design (in the subjective sense) for anyone else.
For me, good design should be progressive, it should be pushing an agenda, an opinion. It should challenge the status quo, investigate outcomes other then what has already been delivered. It should find new ways to improve where possible.
The K-01 satisfies MY criteria for good design, which is more important to me then somebody elses. Alas, I lack the funds to make the purchase- but will look forward to the k01's development over the next few model iterations.
02-08-2012, 05:55 PM   #169
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QuoteOriginally posted by ecnal Quote
For me, good design should be progressive, it should be pushing an agenda, an opinion. It should challenge the status quo, investigate outcomes other then what has already been delivered.
I somewhat agree, but I think the following is key (another Rams rule):
But innovative design always develops in tandem with innovative technology, and can never be an end in itself.
Either you found a form that better fits the function or you have to cater to innovative technology.

If neither applies (which applies to the K-01, doesn't it?) then why change the form?

A possible answer is of course, that the form/style is meant to attract a certain audience. This is something I wouldn't Pentax to be seen doing, ideally not at all, but at least not for the products I'm interested in.

02-08-2012, 06:29 PM   #170
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Why keep citing Rams all the time? Rams is a great designer, but his 'rules' aren't the final word on good or usable design. There are other designers and design traditions out there you know.

Design isn't like physics, or the law for that matter. There isn't some International Design High Council that sets global standards for how things need to be done for a design to be aesthetically or functionally acceptable. Rams is just one interpreter of design, based on the design traditions of his culture, plus his professional experience in post-war Germany and western Europe, and the work he did to produce products for the consumer society boom that ensued there.

Last edited by rawr; 02-08-2012 at 06:37 PM.
02-08-2012, 07:20 PM   #171
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
[*]Your advice/conclusion "Don't buy the K-01" is certainly not what would be good for Pentax. And that was exactly the motivation for this thread: I want Pentax to do well. Hence, I'm frustrated when I feel that they are shooting themselves into the foot. I'm frustrated that the K-01 came close to an attractive product that would have done heaps of good for Pentax, but instead is something you must be concerned about whether it will find acceptance in the market.
You want Pentax to do well... put your money where your mouth is and buy more of their gear. Seriously.
02-08-2012, 07:49 PM - 1 Like   #172
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Let's try this again...




Here's my take on Ram's principles and the K-01...

Is innovative - The possibilities for innovation are not, by any means, exhausted. Technological development is always offering new opportunities for innovative design. But innovative design always develops in tandem with innovative technology, and can never be an end in itself.
From a technology perspective, this is the first mirrorless camera to incorporate the lens mount from a dSLR, so Newson is treading new ground here. The result is distinctive and unlike other designs. It is not simply derivative of a dSLR, or derivative of other established camera forms (rangefinder, film slr, or new small-registration mirrorless).
PASS

Makes a product useful - A product is bought to be used. It has to satisfy certain criteria, not only functional, but also psychological and aesthetic. Good design emphasizes the usefulness of a product whilst disregarding anything that could possibly detract from it.
The general form is very thick and rectangular. Owners of Micro Four-Thirds cameras like the Panasonic GF2, E-PM1, and various Sony NEX cameras have often complained of difficulties holding the thin, rectangular form. The bulky form of the K-01 incorporates a subtle grip and a textured rubber surface to address these issues. Additionally, the thickness of the camera provides a big enough base to place a hand underneath for additional support.

Controls have been minimized to the ones most valuable to the target user group. From the top, the main controls are in contrasting colors to the top plate to draw attention to themselves. The mode dial, clearly the most information-dense and potentially confusing part of the camera for newer photographers, has been offset from the other controls to aid legibility and so as not to appear overly complicated.

The rear panel is similarly minimized to only the basic controls.
PASS

Is aesthetic - The aesthetic quality of a product is integral to its usefulness because products are used every day and have an effect on people and their well-being. Only well-executed objects can be beautiful.
The design is streamlined, minimalistic, simplified, and decidedly devoid of stylistic "flourishes" (like the faux prism of the Olympus OMD, for example).
PASS

Makes a product understandable - It clarifies the product’s structure. Better still, it can make the product clearly express its function by making use of the user's intuition. At best, it is self-explanatory.
The overall simplicity of the camera aids comprehension and usability for the target audience. The oft-derided "stove pipe" even has purpose - to draw attention to the Mode Dial, which is the first control that should be checked when turning the camera on, and it's prominence implies that changing the dial changes the internal functioning of the camera profoundly, which it does.
PASS

Is unobtrusive - Products fulfilling a purpose are like tools. They are neither decorative objects nor works of art. Their design should therefore be both neutral and restrained, to leave room for the user's self-expression.
The yellow is bright, but the other colors are subdued. People that want to make a statement may choose the yellow. Others can choose the more subtle colors and not draw attention to themselves.
PASS

Is honest - It does not make a product more innovative, powerful or valuable than it really is. It does not attempt to manipulate the consumer with promises that cannot be kept.
It does not make any pretend to be an expensive dSLR or a cheap point and shoot, or anything in between.
PASS

Is long-lasting - It avoids being fashionable and therefore never appears antiquated. Unlike fashionable design, it lasts many years – even in today's throwaway society.
It is neither overtly "retro" (i.e., Fuji) or self-consciously futuristic (i.e., NEX 7)
PASS

Is thorough down to the last detail - Nothing must be arbitrary or left to chance. Care and accuracy in the design process show respect towards the consumer.
The front contains the brand logo, the camera model, and a subtle SR tag to denote image stability. The bottom contains a subtle signature of the designer. Otherwise it bereft of marketing tags that plague other cameras. The GH2, for example, contains the brand (Panasonic), model line (Lumix, in 2 places, and stylized L in 1 place), model name (in 2 places), sensor format name (Micro Four-Thirds), memory card format (SDHC), and two tags describing the video capabilities ("AVCHD" and "FullHD")
PASS

Is environmentally friendly - Design makes an important contribution to the preservation of the environment. It conserves resources and minimizes physical and visual pollution throughout the lifecycle of the product.
N/A

Is as little design as possible - Less, but better – because it concentrates on the essential aspects, and the products are not burdened with non-essentials. Back to purity, back to simplicity.
The only notable design flourishes are the "stove pipe" and the yellow version. The "stove pipe", as described earlier, helps to offset the important and complex Mode dial away from the other control and to draw attention to it's importance in the operation of the camera.
PASS

There, that's better.
02-08-2012, 08:13 PM   #173
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I went from a D200 and occasional user of K10D to the K-r. The second wheel is nice but not necessary for most people (most people not most "serious" photographers)

Class A

Do you buy one of each of Pentax's products? If not why is so important that each of them satisfies yourself? I do not think it was aimed at those who would have bought a K5 and maybe not even a K-r and if that is the case then much of your worrying about Pentax would be in vain. If I always drove Silverados I would not worry that the Volt did not have the ability to tow my boat nor as a dslr (and SLR, TLR and view camera ) user I do not worry that Pentax is going to make another type of product, one which I may or may not have in the future some interest in owning.

John

Nice post to show that the rules have been interpretive according to one's personal views not by the actual rules themselves. As to long lasting I wonder how many will be using their K5 in ten years and if so will they still worry that it looks like all the new cameras on the market?

02-08-2012, 09:29 PM   #174
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
You want Pentax to do well... put your money where your mouth is and buy more of their gear. Seriously.
Buy some shares too.

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A:
Hence,I'm frustrated when I feel that they are shooting themselves into the foot
How many days and how many threads are needed because you are frustrated?
02-08-2012, 10:00 PM   #175
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
You want Pentax to do well... put your money where your mouth is and buy more of their gear. Seriously.
What a great idea. It is an epiphany of some sort. Let us all blindly buy Pentax gears even the ones we don't like so that our beloved company will do so well.
02-08-2012, 10:27 PM   #176
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Go out and shoot people...
Ahhh, commas change everything...

Stop clubbing, baby seals!

02-09-2012, 03:29 AM   #177
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
There is only one right answer.
3 or 4 wheels and a body of some sort with doors.
Yaa sure.





QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
What do you think a car should look like?


02-09-2012, 03:47 AM   #178
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
You want Pentax to do well... put your money where your mouth is and buy more of their gear. Seriously.
Seriously?
You want me to single handedly save Pentax with my purchases?
Seriously?

Wouldn't better mass appeal be more effective?

If you and others who do not believe that the K-01 design has issues really believe that the Engadget headline "Pentax K-01 mirrorless camera doesn't feel as cheap as it looks, we go hands-on (video)" is a pure compliment, what would the headline "Pentax K-01 mirrorless camera feels as good as it looks" have been?
02-09-2012, 04:35 AM   #179
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QuoteOriginally posted by FullertonImages Quote
Ahhh, commas change everything...

Stop clubbing, baby seals!
Awwwwww love it lol
02-09-2012, 06:21 AM   #180
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Barriers to entry for P&S shooter:
  • Complexity
    • No TAv; fewer, addressable buttons
  • Size
    • Someone will soon notice that size matters most when a lens is mounted - XS lenses on a larger body may well be smaller than competitors smaller bodies with their lenses mounted.
  • Money
Size is a big one. (Pardon the pun). My wife edits newsletters, websites and other written materials for a living. I have tried, but I can't get her to use my Kx very often, even with LV or and set on its most automatic settings. It doesn't slip well into her bag, and the zoom function requires two hands, instead of operating from the right forefinger like her Canon P&S. She has a great eye, but sees no need for the larger sensor in about 90% of what she does.
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