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02-14-2012, 07:41 AM   #211
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Indeed. It seems a lot of people assume the way they are used to doing things is the only way things can (or should) be done. In handling a new device like a camera it's a bit like travelling to another country and finding that the car you have just hired is LH drive instead of RH drive, and then criticizing the car maker for the stupid layout of the gear shift and console controls. Don't they know ergonomics!
Usually that is beause they drive on a different side of the road.

To continue THAT line of reasoning, one might argue that the K-01 should be safe from complaints if it was mainly sold in a country where people's hands had fingers pointing in other directions.

02-14-2012, 08:03 AM   #212
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Im selling some left handed mugs if anyone is intrested ! lol
02-14-2012, 08:29 AM   #213
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QuoteOriginally posted by pingflood Quote
To continue THAT line of reasoning, one might argue that the K-01 should be safe from complaints if it was mainly sold in a country where people's hands had fingers pointing in other directions.
Question: What would chairs look like if our knees bent the other way?
Answer: A Mark Newson designed chair.
02-14-2012, 08:46 AM   #214
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Question: What would chairs look like if our knees bent the other way?
Answer: A Mark Newson designed chair.


Source: Marc Newson Felt Chair

02-14-2012, 09:25 AM   #215
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Isn't that how capitalism works? Companies operate to make money. More sales means more profits. If you don't like, then don't buy... or is that concept too mind boggling for you?
Oh, I just had another epiphany. Maybe you ought to buy a 645d.

Or two.
02-14-2012, 10:26 AM   #216
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QuoteOriginally posted by pingflood Quote
Usually that is beause they drive on a different side of the road.
No, my point with that example is that mere familiarity with how something works [habit] doesn't always equal good ergonomics.

On a related note, as a left-eyed shooter, I always marvel at the assumptions that right-eyed shooters make about how camera ergonomics should work.

Last edited by rawr; 02-14-2012 at 10:36 AM.
02-14-2012, 10:44 AM   #217
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
No, my point with that example is that mere familiarity with how something works [habit] doesn't always equal good ergonomics.

On a related note, as a left-eyed shooter, I always marvel at the assumptions that right-eyed shooters make about how camera ergonomics should work.
Left eye shooters probably don't even register as a blip regarding their numbers. I can understand that camera ergonomics aren't going to be right for you, but the fact is, your way of shooting is very much an aberration, not something that an SLR manufacturer can cater to and make money from.
02-14-2012, 11:32 AM - 1 Like   #218
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
your way of shooting is very much an aberration
LOL. I'm glad to be such an aberration. It inclines me to take a different perspective on things.

Anyway...I think habits of usage and un-examined assumptions do shape perceptions about design and ergonomics - often more than any real analysis of how things actually work or might work best. I think that is happening a lot with how people are responding to Newson's design here.

02-14-2012, 11:51 AM   #219
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Left eye shooters probably don't even register as a blip regarding their numbers.
Yeah, if we had good genetic testing we wouldn't even need to worry about those freaks in the first place.
02-14-2012, 02:19 PM   #220
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
By their description, it sounds like they tried to press and hold the Exposure Compensation button while simultaneously spinning the dial. As was discussed elsewhere, this is not necessary.
Not having to hold the exposure compensation button while spinning the dial alleviates the problem, but doesn't make it go away.
  1. The button is still in a bad position, even if you only need to press it quickly rather than holding it.
  2. The "press -- spin -- press" sequence is not as fluid as the "hold & spin" approach.
Nothing to do with "old habits".
02-14-2012, 02:33 PM   #221
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Not having to hold the exposure compensation button while spinning the dial alleviates the problem, but doesn't make it go away.
  1. The button is still in a bad position, even if you only need to press it quickly rather than holding it.
  2. The "press -- spin -- press" sequence is not as fluid as the "hold & spin" approach.
Nothing to do with "old habits".
I actually prefer press--spin--press. But if you think it's less fluid, then maybe I shouldn't like it? And I'm not going to judge whether the button is in a good or bad place until I use the camera. But you are welcome to come to your own conclusions based on photographs. Just don't think they are universal.
02-14-2012, 03:13 PM   #222
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
I actually prefer press--spin--press.
No problem. You can press--spin--press if the exposure compensation button is in a better position as well. Your index finger would be more relaxed during pressing, that's all.

QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
But if you think it's less fluid, then maybe I shouldn't like it?
Why are you trying to put words into my mouth?

I understand that there are people that are happy with the K-01's design as it is. But there are people (including me but also other than me) that take issue with it. With some changes, everyone could be happy.

QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
And I'm not going to judge whether the button is in a good or bad place until I use the camera.
Go ahead and reserve your judgment. Fine with me. However, perhaps you can tolerate that I'm able to arrive at conclusions without handling the camera that others -- who have handled the camera -- echo.

I can understand that you are not buying my theoretical considerations, but what about the feedback from people who have handled the camera in real life? Why does this feedback fail to make any impression on you?

QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Just don't think they are universal.
What makes you think I do?

I have been using "AFAIC" so many times that I have been criticised for "leaving escape routes".

And again, just because some users don't take issue with the design doesn't mean that the camera could not appeal to more users if the design were changed.
02-14-2012, 03:24 PM   #223
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
No problem. You can press--spin--press if the exposure compensation button is in a better position as well. Your index finger would be more relaxed during pressing, that's all.


Why are you trying to put words into my mouth?

I understand that there are people that are happy with the K-01's design as it is. But there are people (including me but also other than me) that take issue with it. With some changes, everyone could be happy.


Go ahead and reserve your judgment. Fine with me. However, perhaps you can tolerate that I'm able to arrive at conclusions without handling the camera that others -- who have handled the camera -- echo.

I can understand that you are not buying my theoretical considerations, but what about the feedback from people who have handled the camera in real life? Why does this feedback fail to make any impression on you?


What makes you think I do?

I have been using "AFAIC" so many times that I have been criticised for "leaving escape routes".

And again, just because some users don't take issue with the design doesn't mean that the camera could not appeal to more users if the design were changed.
Fair enough. Sorry for putting words in your mouth. If we are talking about the same review, they were not using the tap--spin--tap method but rather the hold--spin--release method. If they had difficulty that way, who am I to argue? I just know that both the K-x and K-5 permit tap--spin--tap and I suspect that the K-01 does as well. If it does, then their criticism not only does not apply to me, but their evaluation was incomplete, and I've left a comment for them concerning this issue.

And for the record - I'm not happy with the K-01's design as is. I haven't used it. But I'm willing to give it a chance.
02-14-2012, 04:12 PM   #224
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
I just know that both the K-x and K-5 permit tap--spin--tap and I suspect that the K-01 does as well.
The K-01 does allow tap--spin--tap. The Singapore users reported it. Again, I think it alleviates the problem but doesn't completely address it.

QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
And for the record - I'm not happy with the K-01's design as is. I haven't used it. But I'm willing to give it a chance.
Fair enough.
02-14-2012, 04:25 PM - 2 Likes   #225
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
With some changes, everyone could be happy.
That is never going to happen, you've no doubt heard the truism try to please everyone and you end up pleasing no one.

Pentax only has two options;
1) Do nothing and anger many.
2) Do something and anger many.

I'm OK with the fact that you don't like the camera, really I am. You can use AFAIC as much as you want, what I'm getting out of this is that if Pentax made a camera that pleased you, myself and everyone else would be happy. You have an opinion and you are untitled, my opinion is your "marc-newsons-k-01-fails-design-principles-test" is a straw man argument/attempt to elevate your statements from opinion to fact.

Some number of pages ago I stated that the only thing that passed this particular design-principles-test was a wooden shoe, no modern product will satisfy all of Rams' ten principles of "good design". Regardless, these rules are nothing more then Rams' opinion. Design of functional objects is all about comprise, this is fact that I have discovered by designing functional objects. It's a done deal, Pentax took what they believed to be a good roll the market will decide where the chips will fall and in a year we will have an answer.
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