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02-14-2012, 04:44 PM   #226
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I think Amazon is out of pre-sales for the body at least(K-01). I've noticed you can't order the body alone. They are also out of preorders for the Xpro.

02-16-2012, 01:16 PM - 1 Like   #227
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Consider that the reason for why cameras look the way they do is because it gives a good, ergonomic tool to work with. Car exteriors are a somewhat different kettle of fish because they are not operated from the outside. Get into a car, pretty much any car, and you will find that the designer has gone to some effort to ensure things work, and most cars are, to a great extent, carbon copies of each other WRT control placement. Also, a lot of those nice, work of art designs have styling that erodes the functionality of the car.
It might make a nice design statement to alter the pedal placement, but it would make the care dangerous to drive.
I suspect if Newson designed a car interior, the pedals would be in the back seat and the steering wheel on the passenger side.
Sorry, I don't buy it - car exteriors (and interiors) have more functional design limitations imposed on them than any camera. Consider - aerodynamics, signal visibility, cargo capacity, safety (for the occupants, other cars, and now pedestrians), and a whole bunch more. Yet, the designs continue to be fresh and progressive.

This is because car manufacturers have figured out that good design adds value - look at KIA, who used to put out putrid little econoboxes and shameless ripoffs, and then decided to hire Italdesign to give them cars that have gotten mistaken for Lexuses.

SLR designs have been stagnant for a long, long time because nobody has thought to do anything else. This is starting to change, first with retro influences, and now with some entirely new approaches. But existing photo enthusiasts are used to the status quo and fear change (like everybody), so anything new is going to be regarded with suspicion and distaste.

I applaud Pentax on taking the lead with using design to add value to their products. Target figured it out when they started selling cheap, attractive clothing (Wal-mart and others have since followed) and cellphone manufacturers and car manufacturers are following. Consider - good design doesn't add a per-unit cost... it is roughly like R&D, and the money invested is easy to recoup across thousands of sales. It's a good strategy, because everybody is limited by the similar production costs when adding features, but design potentially offers a lot of bang-for-your-buck, and the more you sell the better deal it is.

BTW - Marc Newson did design a Ford concept car, and it had some pretty ergonomic features like swiveling seats that made getting in and out of the car easier. And the steering wheel and pedals were perfectly usable.
02-17-2012, 01:38 PM   #228
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
De gustibus non est disputandum

~ tastes are not disputable

opinions about matters of taste are not objectively right or wrong, and hence disagreements about matters of taste cannot be objectively resolved
For an educated community about beauty his claim is simply not true, what aesthetics is all about; the nature of beauty, art, and taste, and with the creation and appreciation of beauty.

Aesthetics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
02-17-2012, 02:12 PM   #229
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QuoteOriginally posted by Eigengrau Quote
Sorry, I don't buy it - car exteriors (and interiors) have more functional design limitations imposed on them than any camera. Consider - aerodynamics, signal visibility, cargo capacity, safety (for the occupants, other cars, and now pedestrians), and a whole bunch more. Yet, the designs continue to be fresh and progressive.
Really? Every car I've ever seen is built on the same design principal of 3 boxes. They change the shape of the boxes to make them pretty (and sometimes 2 boxes are the same size), but essentially, the car hasn't changed since the Model T.
Perhaps it's because the 3 box design works so well.

02-17-2012, 02:56 PM - 1 Like   #230
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Absolutely correct...

QuoteOriginally posted by Eigengrau Quote
SLR designs have been stagnant for a long, long time because nobody has thought to do anything else. This is starting to change, first with retro influences, and now with some entirely new approaches. But existing photo enthusiasts are used to the status quo and fear change (like everybody), so anything new is going to be regarded with suspicion and distaste.
You are right. This is what I fear. I bought one and regretted it.


Last edited by lammie200; 06-07-2012 at 12:14 PM.
02-17-2012, 09:39 PM   #231
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I'm not sure how well car designs can be compared to camera designs. A new car design still has to function in the existing environment:
  • Let's pretend (for the sake of discussion) that swapping the position of brake and accelerator pedals offered some benefit. Current drivers would still reflexively go for the old positions, and accident rates would soar.
  • Roads, gas pumps, etc. assume standard car designs. A vehicle that's too low bottoms out on speed bumps and one that's too tall hits bridges.
  • New cars designs must comply with many legal requirements.
Cameras have more flexibility. The only hard requirements are a way to save photos and to recharge batteries. There's more freedom to experiment. Damage from failed camera designs are generally limited to unhappy customers and bankrupt companies. Cameras have evolved through pinholes, bellows, lenses, film, digital, mirrors, and now mirrorless. I'm confident that mirrors will be surpassed (but we're not there yet). Even stills might go away in the future: fulltime video at 100 megapixels and ultra-high ISO via improved sensors and storage.
02-18-2012, 02:02 AM   #232
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QuoteOriginally posted by lammie200 Quote
you are right. This is what i fear. I bought one and regretted it.

1988 ricoh mirai camera (australian ad) - youtube
i like it!!!! Unusual. But K-01 and Mirai 105 are different.

Last edited by ogl; 02-18-2012 at 02:11 AM.
02-18-2012, 09:08 AM   #233
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Not sure...

QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
i like it!!!! Unusual. But K-01 and Mirai 105 are different.
I think that there were two models - an SLR (single meaning a non-interchangeable zoom lens) and a rangefinder. I had the SLR. Supposedly it was developed as a joint venture with Olympus. I am not sure that you would have liked the constant lock-ups and eventual full shut down that I experienced. Cost me at least $600USD back in 1988 and was entirely plastic if I remember correctly.

02-18-2012, 10:50 AM   #234
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Let me guess, are you over 50 years old?
02-18-2012, 03:52 PM   #235
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QuoteOriginally posted by chiane Quote
Let me guess, are you over 50 years old?
Let me guess, you got tired of spamming DPReview?
02-18-2012, 04:11 PM   #236
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Really? Every car I've ever seen is built on the same design principal of 3 boxes. They change the shape of the boxes to make them pretty (and sometimes 2 boxes are the same size), but essentially, the car hasn't changed since the Model T.
Perhaps it's because the 3 box design works so well.
That's exactly my point - cars have much larger design challenges than cameras. Yet, they still make them aesthetically interesting and continually bring in fresh new looks.

If they can do it for cars, doing it for cameras should be much easier. Pentax is one of the only manufacturers stepping out to try it, and good for them. We've been stuck in the 90's for way too long with SLR design.
02-18-2012, 04:38 PM   #237
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QuoteOriginally posted by Eigengrau Quote
That's exactly my point - cars have much larger design challenges than cameras. Yet, they still make them aesthetically interesting and continually bring in fresh new looks.
As a point of interest, at somewhat over 6' 3" tall and 240 lbs, most of those fresh looking cars, I have great difficulty folding myself into, and even more difficulty arranging the position of the driver's seat so that I feel comfortable. And no, I'm not a blimp, I'm kind of on the large muscled side. Working construction for many years did that to me.
I've given up on cars entirely for this reason, and bought a truck.
QuoteOriginally posted by Eigengrau Quote
If they can do it for cars, doing it for cameras should be much easier. Pentax is one of the only manufacturers stepping out to try it, and good for them. We've been stuck in the 90's for way too long with SLR design.
I guess my point is, they haven't really done it for cars.
02-19-2012, 07:12 PM   #238
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Not sure...

Originally posted by chiane
Let me guess, are you over 50 years old?

QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Let me guess, you got tired of spamming DPReview?
...Not sure what either of these posts are about. I am age appropriate, haha. I rarely post to DPReview, but maybe Wheatfield was ribbing Chiane about that.

I just came back from a kid's birthday party and everyone (including the two DSLR shooters) had their cameras at arms length snapping away. (I didn't bring a camera BTW.) I think that the K-01 design without a VF was probably a much smarter business move by R/P than many are giving them credit for. (I also don't think that it was Newsom that determined the camera's features.) Overloading it with features and reaching price points that most wouldn't consider entertaining would have been a far worse thing at this point in time.
02-19-2012, 07:29 PM   #239
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QuoteOriginally posted by chiane Quote
Let me guess, are you over 50 years old?
Because of the ability to understand a standard (neutral) English accent, with no rising inflections and no use of the words "like", "wow" or "man" (together or separately)?
02-19-2012, 08:02 PM   #240
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Really? Every car I've ever seen is built on the same design principal of 3 boxes. They change the shape of the boxes to make them pretty (and sometimes 2 boxes are the same size), but essentially, the car hasn't changed since the Model T.
Perhaps it's because the 3 box design works so well.
That is because you define the car to be something made up of 3 boxes.

I can argue that this is also a car.



It has 4 wheels , it has seet for driver. It takes a person from 1 place to another just like a car with 3 boxes.

Now you would tell me that this is not a car because it does not have 3 boxes that you define a car should have. (hence the reason you have not seen a car without 3 boxes).
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