Marc Newson's K-01 fails design principles test

**monochrome** · 04-18-2012, 05:14 PM

Just asking - do you have a K-01? I ask because mine feels very good in my hands now that I am familiar with it, including the Green Button and the grip. I can effectively use the LCD for my purposes. I liked the visual elements of the design from the moment I saw it and it pleases me to look at every bit as much as my SV and Kx do..

IMHO some of the objections fall into the "not designed for my needs" category. Others fall into the "not designed for (what I imagine to be) the industry standard" category. Both may have elements of truth - but for my needs the K-01 is well designed.

riff · 04-18-2012, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

Just asking - do you have a K-01?

Indeed Class A or any training or history in design or perhaps you just have your opinion?

Class A · 04-18-2012, 07:39 PM - **3 Likes**

Originally posted by monochrome

... mine feels very good in my hands now that I am familiar with it, including the Green Button and the grip.

Can you reach the green button without changing your grip?

Did you assign the green button to a function that you don't need in normal shooting mode?

Would you have assigned another function to the green button if it were reachable from a normal shooting grip?

Do you not have to slightly contort your finger while pressing the exposure compensation button?

Which of the button layouts do you prefer, the K-5's or the K-01's? The K-5 is clearly designed to allow a one hand operation and providing access to all shooting related functions without finger contortions or having to change how one holds the camera. The K-01 has clearly not been designed with this premise.

Doesn't the K-5 grip allow a more secure and more comfortable holding of the camera?

I'm not saying the K-01 is unusable. I'm not saying it cannot be fun to use. I'm saying that it could have easily been better and that comprises have been made because style was prioritised over functionality.

Some users may even prefer fashion-forward style over optimal usability. Nothing wrong with that. My personal premise for camera design is that usability has to have utmost priority. I'm maintaining that function over form is a fundamental principle of industrial design and any product failing to meet this criterion is not worthy of a design award (unless "design" is misunderstood as "fashion").

**monochrome** · 04-18-2012, 08:33 PM

Assume for my responses that I hold this camera as if it is an SLR, cradled in my left palm with a very light touch of my right fingers. I bring my arms in to my sides, hold the LCD a few inches in front of my nose and make a stable base with my feet. Without that image you won't understand my responses.

Originally posted by Class A

Can you reach the green button without changing your grip?

I just move my index finger, the same as I do to use the DOF/Preview lever on a dSLR (I don't use the Green Button on a dSLR), I don't even look for the GB now. The corner of the body presses the muscle on the inside od the first joint of my index finger, not uncomfortably, but that is my objection.

Originally posted by Class A

Did you assign the green button to a function that you don't need in normal shooting mode?

Since I predominantly use MF lenses in manual Mode the Green Button is assigned to Tv Shift in M/TAv Mode.

Originally posted by Class A

Would you have assigned another function to the green button if it were reachable from a normal shooting grip?

It is reachable, so N/A

Originally posted by Class A

Do you not have to slightly contort your finger while pressing the exposure compensation button?

It is arched, This is my second biggest complaint, biggest is the K-r style 4-Way controller. The camera isn't perfect but I don't raise the objections to the level you do.

Originally posted by Class A

Which of the button layouts do you prefer, the K-5's or the K-01's? The K-5 is clearly designed to allow a one hand operation [I never use a camera with one hand] and providing access to all shooting related functions without finger contortions or having to change how one holds the camera. The K-01 has clearly not been designed with this premise.

The K-01 has been designed with a compromise between absolute functional utility and visual design appeal. The compromise is, to me, fair though not functionally optimal.

Originally posted by Class A

Doesn't the K-5 grip allow a more secure and more comfortable holding of the camera?

No. See introductory statement. I hold a dSLR the same way.

Originally posted by Class A

I'm not saying the K-01 is unusable. I'm not saying it cannot be fun to use. I'm saying that it could have easily been better and that comprises have been made because style was prioritised over functionality.

Fair statement - and a more moderate tone than many others on this Forum. Thank you. The K-5 is an ergonomic opus. I would say K-01 style was given more weight than a K-5, but I wouldn't assign the functional priority to style. Difference of opinion. Fail is a stronger word than I would use - imperfect is my judgement.

Originally posted by Class A

Some users may even prefer fashion-forward style over optimal usability. Nothing wrong with that. My personal premise for camera design is that usability has to have utmost priority. [As long as I have a camera that meets the pure-function standard when I need it, I'm copacetic with the (I think slight) imperfections of the K-01. YMMV - actually YM does V] I'm maintaining that function over form is a fundamental principle of industrial design and any product failing to meet this criterion is not worthy of a design award (unless "design" is misunderstood as "fashion").

I'm perfectly comfortable with the Red Dot Award since the jury brief doesn't claim to meet your standard. I'm perfectly comfortable with a product that doesn't absolutely meet your standard as long as it doesn't claim so to do - which the K-01 clearly doesn't claim. We already have a K-5 for you (and sometimes for me). The K-01 is for me at other times. Now, give me a K-5 with an articulating LCD and focus peaking, plus the IQ of the K-01 and I'll be first in line (maybe July). But I still really like this camera, warts and all.

A jury working on a brief that demanded the product to be perfectly function oriented shouldn't select the K-01.

ibkc · 04-18-2012, 08:51 PM

Originally posted by Class A

Can you reach the green button without changing your grip?

I can.

Class A · 04-18-2012, 09:28 PM

Monochrome, thanks for your response.

The following, I believe summarises your position:

Originally posted by monochrome

The K-01 has been designed with a compromise between absolute functional utility and visual design appeal. The compromise is, to me, fair though not functionally optimal.

I agree and the main difference between you and me seems to be that I find it inexcusable for a new camera in this day and age, coming from Pentax which had hitherto been exemplary regarding ergonomics, to make compromises regarding usability.

I have said earlier that maybe the K-01 could open up a market for Pentax which is not obsessed about usability but values the visual statement the K-01 represents. That would be a good thing for Pentax.

I'm just concerned that Pentax may have lost its touch regarding proper ergonomics and that future DSLRs will attempt to appeal to new markets as well.

Oh well, I guess a used K-5 will do well instead, in case my worst nightmares come true, although I'd much prefer a successor model with improved AF, focus peaking and perhaps some more features. I'm very curious as to what Photokina 2012 will bring.

ibkc · 04-18-2012, 10:43 PM

Originally posted by Class A

Monochrome, thanks for your response.

The following, I believe summarises your position:

I agree and the main difference between you and me seems to be that I find it inexcusable for a new camera in this day and age, coming from Pentax which had hitherto been exemplary regarding ergonomics, to make compromises regarding usability.

The K-01 is not. difficult. to. use.

REPEAT

The K-01 is not difficult to use. On the contrary, it is very easy to use.

The grip is different but not uncomfortable. The button placements are different but not something that an intelligent person couldn't deal with.

Last edited by ibkc; 04-19-2012 at 02:07 PM. Reason: fixed a very stupid typo

**monochrome** · 04-19-2012, 06:34 AM

Originally posted by ibkc

The K-01 is not. difficult. to. use.

REPEAT

The K-01 is not difficult to use. On the contrary, it is very easy to use.

The grip is different but not uncomfortable. The button placements are different but not something that an intelligent person could deal with.

Correct it is quite easy to use under nearly every circumstance. Especially when considering, though it is capable of performing nearly every function of a K-5 if properly configured, I don't think its principal purpose is to compete with a K-5.

**rparmar** · 04-19-2012, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by Class A

Just because I criticize, you call me hostile?

Your assumption is wrong. I called you hostile because you were slinging insults.

The rest of your argument I cannot understand since every other statement contradicts the one before it.

**rparmar** · 04-19-2012, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by Class A

I find it inexcusable for a new camera in this day and age, coming from Pentax which had hitherto been exemplary regarding ergonomics, to make compromises regarding usability.

But I agree with this so likely we are on the same page.

Anyway, this thread is full of posts from people on my ignore list, so there's obviously little point in continuing.

drumhead · 04-28-2012, 09:45 AM

Innovation is usually the result of breaking a few "rules", eh? Design is SO subjective. I like the K-01. Held it for the first time yesterday. Assure me that I can accurately MF my old glass without an EVF on a sunny day and I'm in!

bossa · 04-28-2012, 03:00 PM

To everyone banging on about Marc Newson in this thread I think you should count yourselves lucky that Picasso didn't have a hand in designing the K-01. Just imagine a Cubist version for one moment.

pingflood · 04-29-2012, 01:42 AM

I would rather have a Dalí with a melting viewfinder and a tuba where the lens should be.

**monochrome** · 05-01-2012, 07:17 AM

Originally posted by drumhead

Innovation is usually the result of breaking a few "rules", eh? Design is SO subjective. I like the K-01. Held it for the first time yesterday. Assure me that I can accurately MF my old glass without an EVF on a sunny day and I'm in!

Well, I can't assure you but I've never had a problem composing and focusing using the LCD. In fact I had what I thought was an LCD probelm, but turned out to be an underexposed image in P Mode. I increased Ev Comp 0.7 and the LCD brightened up dramatically and was totally useable - very, very bright!!

regor · 05-01-2012, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by ibkc

The K-01 is not. difficult. to. use.

REPEAT

The K-01 is not difficult to use. On the contrary, it is very easy to use.

The grip is different but not uncomfortable. The button placements are different but not something that an intelligent person couldn't deal with.

I think that this was the whole point of the K-01 Design, and so many are just missing the point it would seem. I don't think that it was designed to be used by serious photographers that are accustomed to DSLR handling, but more by the Point-and-shooters that are intimidated by DSLRs, confused by all the buttons and options, but yet, want the DSLR "quality". The interface is clean, very clean to the bare minimum, yet maintains the functionality that we've all come to like and depend on. I would dare anyone to come up with a better design for the casual P&S photographer seeking DSLR capabilities; I personally think that it was brilliantly designed when you consider the target buyer, albeit perhaps not designed for the population of this forum in mind. I suspect that the target population doesn't even know Pentax Forum even exists !

04-18-2012, 08:33 PM	#304
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	A camera doesn't have to be perfect to be a good camera Assume for my responses that I hold this camera as if it is an SLR, cradled in my left palm with a very light touch of my right fingers. I bring my arms in to my sides, hold the LCD a few inches in front of my nose and make a stable base with my feet. Without that image you won't understand my responses. Originally posted by Class A Can you reach the green button without changing your grip? I just move my index finger, the same as I do to use the DOF/Preview lever on a dSLR (I don't use the Green Button on a dSLR), I don't even look for the GB now. The corner of the body presses the muscle on the inside od the first joint of my index finger, not uncomfortably, but that is my objection. Originally posted by Class A Did you assign the green button to a function that you don't need in normal shooting mode? Since I predominantly use MF lenses in manual Mode the Green Button is assigned to Tv Shift in M/TAv Mode. Originally posted by Class A Would you have assigned another function to the green button if it were reachable from a normal shooting grip? It is reachable, so N/A Originally posted by Class A Do you not have to slightly contort your finger while pressing the exposure compensation button? It is arched, This is my second biggest complaint, biggest is the K-r style 4-Way controller. The camera isn't perfect but I don't raise the objections to the level you do. Originally posted by Class A Which of the button layouts do you prefer, the K-5's or the K-01's? The K-5 is clearly designed to allow a one hand operation [I never use a camera with one hand] and providing access to all shooting related functions without finger contortions or having to change how one holds the camera. The K-01 has clearly not been designed with this premise. The K-01 has been designed with a compromise between absolute functional utility and visual design appeal. The compromise is, to me, fair though not functionally optimal. Originally posted by Class A Doesn't the K-5 grip allow a more secure and more comfortable holding of the camera? No. See introductory statement. I hold a dSLR the same way. Originally posted by Class A I'm not saying the K-01 is unusable. I'm not saying it cannot be fun to use. I'm saying that it could have easily been better and that comprises have been made because style was prioritised over functionality. Fair statement - and a more moderate tone than many others on this Forum. Thank you. The K-5 is an ergonomic opus. I would say K-01 style was given more weight than a K-5, but I wouldn't assign the functional priority to style. Difference of opinion. Fail is a stronger word than I would use - imperfect is my judgement. Originally posted by Class A Some users may even prefer fashion-forward style over optimal usability. Nothing wrong with that. My personal premise for camera design is that usability has to have utmost priority. [As long as I have a camera that meets the pure-function standard when I need it, I'm copacetic with the (I think slight) imperfections of the K-01. YMMV - actually YM does V] I'm maintaining that function over form is a fundamental principle of industrial design and any product failing to meet this criterion is not worthy of a design award (unless "design" is misunderstood as "fashion"). I'm perfectly comfortable with the Red Dot Award since the jury brief doesn't claim to meet your standard. I'm perfectly comfortable with a product that doesn't absolutely meet your standard as long as it doesn't claim so to do - which the K-01 clearly doesn't claim. We already have a K-5 for you (and sometimes for me). The K-01 is for me at other times. Now, give me a K-5 with an articulating LCD and focus peaking, plus the IQ of the K-01 and I'll be first in line (maybe July). But I still really like this camera, warts and all. A jury working on a brief that demanded the product to be perfectly function oriented shouldn't select the K-01.

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04-18-2012, 05:14 PM	#301
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Just asking - do you have a K-01? I ask because mine feels very good in my hands now that I am familiar with it, including the Green Button and the grip. I can effectively use the LCD for my purposes. I liked the visual elements of the design from the moment I saw it and it pleases me to look at every bit as much as my SV and Kx do.. IMHO some of the objections fall into the "not designed for my needs" category. Others fall into the "not designed for (what I imagine to be) the industry standard" category. Both may have elements of truth - but for my needs the K-01 is well designed.

04-18-2012, 05:27 PM	#302
riff Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Photos: Albums Posts: 1,408	Originally posted by monochrome Just asking - do you have a K-01? Indeed Class A or any training or history in design or perhaps you just have your opinion?

04-18-2012, 07:39 PM - 3 Likes	#303
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251 Original Poster	Originally posted by monochrome ... mine feels very good in my hands now that I am familiar with it, including the Green Button and the grip. Can you reach the green button without changing your grip? Did you assign the green button to a function that you don't need in normal shooting mode? Would you have assigned another function to the green button if it were reachable from a normal shooting grip? Do you not have to slightly contort your finger while pressing the exposure compensation button? Which of the button layouts do you prefer, the K-5's or the K-01's? The K-5 is clearly designed to allow a one hand operation and providing access to all shooting related functions without finger contortions or having to change how one holds the camera. The K-01 has clearly not been designed with this premise. Doesn't the K-5 grip allow a more secure and more comfortable holding of the camera? I'm not saying the K-01 is unusable. I'm not saying it cannot be fun to use. I'm saying that it could have easily been better and that comprises have been made because style was prioritised over functionality. Some users may even prefer fashion-forward style over optimal usability. Nothing wrong with that. My personal premise for camera design is that usability has to have utmost priority. I'm maintaining that function over form is a fundamental principle of industrial design and any product failing to meet this criterion is not worthy of a design award (unless "design" is misunderstood as "fashion").

04-18-2012, 08:51 PM	#305
ibkc Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: southeastern US Photos: Gallery Posts: 203	Originally posted by Class A Can you reach the green button without changing your grip? I can.

04-18-2012, 09:28 PM	#306
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251 Original Poster	Monochrome, thanks for your response. The following, I believe summarises your position: Originally posted by monochrome The K-01 has been designed with a compromise between absolute functional utility and visual design appeal. The compromise is, to me, fair though not functionally optimal. I agree and the main difference between you and me seems to be that I find it inexcusable for a new camera in this day and age, coming from Pentax which had hitherto been exemplary regarding ergonomics, to make compromises regarding usability. I have said earlier that maybe the K-01 could open up a market for Pentax which is not obsessed about usability but values the visual statement the K-01 represents. That would be a good thing for Pentax. I'm just concerned that Pentax may have lost its touch regarding proper ergonomics and that future DSLRs will attempt to appeal to new markets as well. Oh well, I guess a used K-5 will do well instead, in case my worst nightmares come true, although I'd much prefer a successor model with improved AF, focus peaking and perhaps some more features. I'm very curious as to what Photokina 2012 will bring.

04-18-2012, 10:43 PM	#307
ibkc Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: southeastern US Photos: Gallery Posts: 203	Originally posted by Class A Monochrome, thanks for your response. The following, I believe summarises your position: I agree and the main difference between you and me seems to be that I find it inexcusable for a new camera in this day and age, coming from Pentax which had hitherto been exemplary regarding ergonomics, to make compromises regarding usability. The K-01 is not. difficult. to. use. REPEAT The K-01 is not difficult to use. On the contrary, it is very easy to use. The grip is different but not uncomfortable. The button placements are different but not something that an intelligent person couldn't deal with. Last edited by ibkc; 04-19-2012 at 02:07 PM. Reason: fixed a very stupid typo

04-19-2012, 06:34 AM	#308
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by ibkc The K-01 is not. difficult. to. use. REPEAT The K-01 is not difficult to use. On the contrary, it is very easy to use. The grip is different but not uncomfortable. The button placements are different but not something that an intelligent person could deal with. Correct it is quite easy to use under nearly every circumstance. Especially when considering, though it is capable of performing nearly every function of a K-5 if properly configured, I don't think its principal purpose is to compete with a K-5.

04-19-2012, 04:10 PM	#309
rparmar Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,817	Originally posted by Class A Just because I criticize, you call me hostile? Your assumption is wrong. I called you hostile because you were slinging insults. The rest of your argument I cannot understand since every other statement contradicts the one before it.

04-19-2012, 04:12 PM	#310
rparmar Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,817	Originally posted by Class A I find it inexcusable for a new camera in this day and age, coming from Pentax which had hitherto been exemplary regarding ergonomics, to make compromises regarding usability. But I agree with this so likely we are on the same page. Anyway, this thread is full of posts from people on my ignore list, so there's obviously little point in continuing.

04-28-2012, 09:45 AM	#311
drumhead Forum Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 71	Innovation is usually the result of breaking a few "rules", eh? Design is SO subjective. I like the K-01. Held it for the first time yesterday. Assure me that I can accurately MF my old glass without an EVF on a sunny day and I'm in!

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04-28-2012, 03:00 PM	#312
bossa Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Adelaide Posts: 4,546	To everyone banging on about Marc Newson in this thread I think you should count yourselves lucky that Picasso didn't have a hand in designing the K-01. Just imagine a Cubist version for one moment.

04-29-2012, 01:42 AM	#313
pingflood Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Borås, Sweden Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,169	I would rather have a Dalí with a melting viewfinder and a tuba where the lens should be.

05-01-2012, 07:17 AM	#314
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by drumhead Innovation is usually the result of breaking a few "rules", eh? Design is SO subjective. I like the K-01. Held it for the first time yesterday. Assure me that I can accurately MF my old glass without an EVF on a sunny day and I'm in! Well, I can't assure you but I've never had a problem composing and focusing using the LCD. In fact I had what I thought was an LCD probelm, but turned out to be an underexposed image in P Mode. I increased Ev Comp 0.7 and the LCD brightened up dramatically and was totally useable - very, very bright!!

05-01-2012, 09:48 PM	#315
regor Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Victoria, BC Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 356	Originally posted by ibkc The K-01 is not. difficult. to. use. REPEAT The K-01 is not difficult to use. On the contrary, it is very easy to use. The grip is different but not uncomfortable. The button placements are different but not something that an intelligent person couldn't deal with. I think that this was the whole point of the K-01 Design, and so many are just missing the point it would seem. I don't think that it was designed to be used by serious photographers that are accustomed to DSLR handling, but more by the Point-and-shooters that are intimidated by DSLRs, confused by all the buttons and options, but yet, want the DSLR "quality". The interface is clean, very clean to the bare minimum, yet maintains the functionality that we've all come to like and depend on. I would dare anyone to come up with a better design for the casual P&S photographer seeking DSLR capabilities; I personally think that it was brilliantly designed when you consider the target buyer, albeit perhaps not designed for the population of this forum in mind. I suspect that the target population doesn't even know Pentax Forum even exists !