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03-18-2012, 08:57 AM   #91
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Good catch, monochrome, I didn't think to check it out.

Anyway, that aside, I think the K-01 is different enough that while it of course needs to be compared with other cameras, it also deserves to be considered solely on it's own merits. I think there is a popular, shortsighted viewpoint that the K-01 needs to play the exact same game as other MILCs. The K-01 has enough unique strengths of it's own that as long as it performs well within it's design parameters it is a worthy camera for a specific user-base. I think two key factors in public acceptance will be 1) Will review sites acknowledge and appreciate the K-01's unique attributes, and 2) Will there be enough marketing to reach the intended audience?

Just my two cents...

03-18-2012, 02:37 PM - 1 Like   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
Good catch, monochrome, I didn't think to check it out.

Anyway, that aside, I think the K-01 is different enough that while it of course needs to be compared with other cameras, it also deserves to be considered solely on it's own merits. I think there is a popular, shortsighted viewpoint that the K-01 needs to play the exact same game as other MILCs. The K-01 has enough unique strengths of it's own that as long as it performs well within it's design parameters it is a worthy camera for a specific user-base. I think two key factors in public acceptance will be 1) Will review sites acknowledge and appreciate the K-01's unique attributes, and 2) Will there be enough marketing to reach the intended audience?

Just my two cents...
+1 And it is up to (those of) us who ferret out the uniqe aspects to demonstrate and patiently explain them to the curious, the doubters and the unbelievers. I truly need a fine camera that uses LCD to focus. This camera allows me to use my K-series lenses to most of their potential. Aside from it being just a fine camera, if a bit different, it allows older people who have vision challenges to continue to play.

I know most of the population hates what I'm about to say - but - the Baby Boom needs cameras like this, and they Baby Boom is large enough and wealthy enough to buy them. Unfortunately many of the reviewers are younger than we, are self-centric and don't expand thir thinking enough to consider features in the context of uses outside their own needs and desires.

(Not that we ever did when we were young).
03-18-2012, 05:45 PM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
Hmm, you speak of keeping "things relatively objective", and yet you are the one offering opinions. In my previous post, I presented 2 facts & a query, and left it at that. I did not offer an opinion.
My comment was directed at tarsus, the one who called the the K-01 a crippled K-r. Sorry, quote of a quote erased the original text, so that came out not as I intended.

@monochrome

Dude, just, stop that. It's creepy.

If I'm snarky, it's because I have little tolerance for people who defend the Pentax brand (or their model of camera, or any their own possesions) like it's a trusted family member.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread:

QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
I'll also note that the K-01 is most definitely not a "a K-r without a viewfinder". Ergonomics is a very personal thing, and someone who likes the handling of a K-r may not like handling the very different K-01.
It is though. I mean, look at the back. A couple of buttons have been switched around, but it's otherwise a K-r. Screen menus, the same. Size and shape, essentially the same. Construction, control points? The same.

I'm not saying that in a pejorative way, just as an observation. The only reason the ergonomics are different are 1) styling and 2) no viewfinder.

QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
I don't agree with your statement, "If someone is looking for a small camera with interchangeable lenses, the K-01 is at a fundamental disadvantage when tossed together with the likes of the GF3..." Why? Because each camera has it's advantages/disadvantages based on the criteria of the prospective user. How can you makes a decision for him/her?
Now I'm beginning to wonder if you are defending your K-01 for the sake of it. Either that or you really misinterpreted what I said, which was; if someone is looking for a small camera, the K-01 is at a disadvantage. I'm not proposing to make a decision for anyone. That's just fact. It's the hand that Pentax dealt themselves with this camera: it is bigger, and I mean significantly, real world, alot bigger, than the smallest micro43 alternatives with the 3x standard zoom that most people look to use. Does everyone want a small camera? No. Is the K-01 too big? Of course not. But for the person who wants a camera the size of the GF3, the K-01 is unlikely to make the shortlist.

QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
Also, people should "be talking up improved sensors or video modes"... because if someone is looking to buy now, what happens in the next generation of cameras doesn't have much impact. Like most technology, cameras will be leapfrogging each other in terms of features, sensors, etc.
Exactly. Which is why in 6 months the K-01 won't be cutting edge anymore. It will still be what it is, but all the people who went out and just bought the K-s with 1080p 60, HDMI monitoring, and improved video codec and will be able to brag about their amazing new camera. Such is life. The K-01 design, aesthetics and usage paradigm are unique. It's imaging pipeline is relatively unremarkable, if not already outclassed, it will be very soon.
03-18-2012, 06:00 PM - 1 Like   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by rjm Quote

Now I'm beginning to wonder if you are defending your K-01 for the sake of it. Either that or you really misinterpreted what I said, which was; if someone is looking for a small camera, the K-01 is at a disadvantage. I'm not proposing to make a decision for anyone. That's just fact. It's the hand that Pentax dealt themselves with this camera: it is bigger, and I mean significantly, real world, alot bigger, than the smallest micro43 alternatives with the 3x standard zoom that most people look to use. Does everyone want a small camera? No. Is the K-01 too big? Of course not. But for the person who wants a camera the size of the GF3, the K-01 is unlikely to make the shortlist.

[ ... ]
Exactly. Which is why in 6 months the K-01 won't be cutting edge anymore. It will still be what it is, but all the people who went out and just bought the K-s with 1080p 60, HDMI monitoring, and improved video codec and will be able to brag about their amazing new camera. Such is life. The K-01 design, aesthetics and usage paradigm are unique. It's imaging pipeline is relatively unremarkable, if not already outclassed, it will be very soon.
And so what? The camera is out. It is on store shelves, and it is apparently not a sales failure by Pentax standards, as some kits have already sold out in the larger online retailers and are already on backorder.

You can tell yourself and everyone else over and over that the design is bad and that this is fact and that it is unremarkable and that a K-01 user who doesn't agree with you about the design is just defending the camera "for the sake of it", but at this point you're shouting in a big empty room. The camera is here, people are buying it and using it, and nothing you say changes that fact.

Do you have to buy it and use it? No you do not.

But please do continue shouting in your big empty room. Those echoes may, in time, come to seem like multiple voices coming back to agree with you.

03-18-2012, 06:28 PM   #95
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QuoteQuote:
If someone is looking for a small camera with interchangeable lenses, the K-01 is at a fundamental disadvantage when tossed together with the likes of the GF3, which has 1) a smaller sensor, 2) folding zoom lens available, and 3) makes liberal use of in-camera corrections to enable compact and fast aperture dedicated lenses.
I shoot video more than stills and the GH2 is much better than the GF3 but the K-01 is the best K-mount body for video use today.

My GH2 with Voigtländer Nokton 25mm f/0.95 and Steadicam Merlin.
03-18-2012, 06:32 PM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by rjm Quote
My comment was directed at tarsus, the one who called the the K-01 a crippled K-r. Sorry, quote of a quote erased the original text, so that came out not as I intended.
Thanks for clearing that up.

QuoteQuote:
It is though. I mean, look at the back. A couple of buttons have been switched around, but it's otherwise a K-r. Screen menus, the same. Size and shape, essentially the same. Construction, control points? The same.

I'm not saying that in a pejorative way, just as an observation. The only reason the ergonomics are different are 1) styling and 2) no viewfinder.

Now I'm beginning to wonder if you are defending your K-01 for the sake of it. Either that or you really misinterpreted what I said, which was; if someone is looking for a small camera, the K-01 is at a disadvantage. I'm not proposing to make a decision for anyone. That's just fact. It's the hand that Pentax dealt themselves with this camera: it is bigger, and I mean significantly, real world, alot bigger, than the smallest micro43 alternatives with the 3x standard zoom that most people look to use. Does everyone want a small camera? No. Is the K-01 too big? Of course not. But for the person who wants a camera the size of the GF3, the K-01 is unlikely to make the shortlist.
I don't own a K-01. I am, however, a fan of market differentiation and choice - hence my enthusiasm for the K-01. So, "if someone is looking for a small camera" implies that size is the sole criteria, then I ago with you. However, if size is *a* criteria, the K-01 may have other attributes which may prove more important to a prospective buyer, or it may not. Once you use a lens other than a slim prime, for many people the size differential between the K-01 and G3 will not have a practical impact. *

* maybe a woman with a really small purse or a person wearing a jacket with small pockets?


QuoteQuote:
Exactly. Which is why in 6 months the K-01 won't be cutting edge anymore. It will still be what it is, but all the people who went out and just bought the K-s with 1080p 60, HDMI monitoring, and improved video codec and will be able to brag about their amazing new camera. Such is life. The K-01 design, aesthetics and usage paradigm are unique. It's imaging pipeline is relatively unremarkable, if not already outclassed, it will be very soon.
With technology, it's useless living in a land of future what-ifs. Get the best, most appropriate tool you can now, and choose to be happy.
03-18-2012, 08:43 PM - 1 Like   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by rjm Quote
if someone is looking for a small camera, the K-01 is at a disadvantage.
And if someone is looking for a large truck the Mclaren F1 is at a disadvantage.
03-20-2012, 06:57 PM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
However, if size is *a* criteria, the K-01 may have other attributes which may prove more important to a prospective buyer, or it may not. Once you use a lens other than a slim prime, for many people the size differential between the K-01 and G3 will not have a practical impact. *

* maybe a woman with a really small purse or a person wearing a jacket with small pockets?
Let's say GF3 rather than G3, the G3 is a little bigger and has an EVF. With the new foldable kit zoom, the GF3 is really compact. I understand what you are talking about when you say "practical impact", I use that a lot when trying to convince people that the NEX is really not all that small.

But with the 3x zoom on the K-01, I beg to differ : now we are talking "practical impact". The whole package is big and bulky. Against the GF3 it's night and day.

Finally yesterday I had a chance to go down and check out the K-01 in person. Also chatted to the Pentax sales rep.

(As an aside, we talked about the Ricoh-Pentax merger. In April, Ricoh camera team is joining Pentax. Even though the acquisition is formally the other way around, Ricoh will merge and got to join with Pentax and Ricoh cameras will be branded Pentax in the future. He was quite excited about the new opportunities getting these two design houses together.)

He wasn't very enthusiastic about the K-01, saying it was more popular outside of Japan than in the domestic market, where it was seen as "two big for your second camera and too limited as your first.". Certainly in the Japanese market, where the Q does not seem really out of place, the K-01 does stand out: not only is it large, the design makes no effort to hide the bulk, and offers little to help you hold it either. I found the absence of a thumb rest aggravating. On a smaller camera, no big deal, but on something this thick you really do need it.

Overall though, it's fine. Built pretty much like a K-r, but with nicer feeling matt texture plastic and metal-feeling, solid power switch and exceptionally nice mode dial. Rubber cover over the ports is annoying. My thumb kept popping it open accidentally. It's fine to hold, the screen is bright and clear, and autofocus is acceptable. And focus peaking. I hope Pentax has a patent on this, because if they do they will be laughing all the way to the bank. Every camera should have this. Every. Last. One.

I just felt, holding it, that it chose appearance over function in just a few too many places. Apparently things like the thumb grip caused a tussle between Pentax engineers and Marc Newson, a fight which Mark was allowed to win. The result is a nicer looking camera, but one which requires some patience and yes, a little sacrifice, to actually use.

A glorious experiment and an interesting, innovative product. But, I'll pass, thanks.

03-20-2012, 07:29 PM - 1 Like   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by rjm Quote
A glorious experiment and an interesting, innovative product. But, I'll pass, thanks.
Any chance this means you'll move on to another thread to tell them they're all crazy for not having the same opinion as you? I mean, the K-01 thread is pretty old hat at this point. Shouldn't you be moving on to the K-s rumors or something?
03-20-2012, 09:59 PM - 1 Like   #100
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Just speaking for myself, Sunny 16, but I think that was unnecessary and way off the mark.

rjm, although I disagree with a few of your points, your overall assessment seems both astute and sincere. Don't know why your getting all the abuse.

I agree the K-01 isn't the most comfortable thing to hold. (The original Olympus E-1 wins that contest for me - also a fairly large camera, but SO ergonomic.) And without knowing the backstory, I got the sense that the World-Famous Designer had too much of a hand in the final form. Why didn't they just ask me??

I bought this camera because it's pro-level IQ for cheap. Plus K-mount lenses. I'm willing to put up with various foibles to get to that. It's not like it's the last camera I'm going to own. For now I'm getting great results.

Cheers.
03-20-2012, 11:04 PM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by mervis Quote
Just speaking for myself, Sunny 16, but I think that was unnecessary and way off the mark.

rjm, although I disagree with a few of your points, your overall assessment seems both astute and sincere. Don't know why your getting all the abuse.
Point taken. I apologize for choosing words that made it more personal towards rjm. I obviously do not know rjm besides what I've seen posted here and though I have some disagreements, it was not right of me to approach it in that way. So again, I apologize and I will try to be more mature in the future.

- Jeff
03-21-2012, 04:27 PM   #102
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Thanks, both of you, that's appreciated.

Incidentally dpreview has just posted a K-01 preview.

Pentax K-01 Hands-on Preview: Digital Photography Review

The money quote on the ergonomics is pretty dire:

QuoteQuote:
The K-01 is by far the heaviest mirrorless camera we've handled. Even more disappointingly, the lack of a sufficient hand grip makes it not only awkward, but uncomfortable to hold. While the red and green buttons atop the camera are customizable, it is impossible to actually reach the green one with your hand in a shooting position.
With the buttons arranged over such a large camera area, we found key controls difficult to manipulate without large shifts in your hand position. While you can reach both the red and exposure compensation buttons with your hand in the shooting position, neither of them are particularly comfortable, as they are set so far to the rear of the camera plate. The rear thumb dial, by comparison, is very well placed.

There's no getting around the fact, however, that the K-01 is a heavy camera. In addition, it feels particularly unbalanced, with significantly more weight distributed along the grip side of the camera. When using anything other than the Pentax smc DA 40mm F2.8 XS pancake lens, we find the only comfortable option when holding the camera is to support the bulk of its weight with your left hand holding the lens barrel. From an ergonomic handling standpoint, the K-01's external design falls far behind a DSLR form factor like that of the Pentax K-5.
Whoa. That's even harsher that my assessment!

I felt that with larger lenses like the kit zoom, which I did try, it was both natural and sensible to hold the camera two-handed, and when I did hold it that way it did not feel unbalanced or awkward. On the "difficult to manipulate without shifting your hand position" and "not only awkward, but uncomfortable to hold" I agree but would have softened my language a little. It's not a complete mess, it's just a little behind in these areas.
03-21-2012, 05:31 PM   #103
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QuoteQuote:
when holding the camera is to support the bulk of its weight with your left hand holding the lens barrel. From an ergonomic handling standpoint, the K-01's external design falls far behind a DSLR form factor like that of the Pentax K-5.
Oddly enough that is exactly the way I hold the K-5.

Edit: maybe not exactly but close enough

Last edited by riff; 03-21-2012 at 06:00 PM.
03-21-2012, 05:50 PM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by rjm Quote
Whoa. That's even harsher that my assessment!

I felt that with larger lenses like the kit zoom, which I did try, it was both natural and sensible to hold the camera two-handed, and when I did hold it that way it did not feel unbalanced or awkward. On the "difficult to manipulate without shifting your hand position" and "not only awkward, but uncomfortable to hold" I agree but would have softened my language a little. It's not a complete mess, it's just a little behind in these areas.
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