DPR K-01 Preview - They've Made A Hash Of It

mervis · 03-26-2012, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by Urkeldaedalus

The most troubling thing to me about the error on the K-01 preview is that it gives me the feeling that they think the K-01 is sort of a joke.

I hear ya. I was in my city's largest camera retailer and the sales guy smirked at me when I asked about it; said, "we weren't impressed..." Then he made a show of looking it up on the computer, "We could special order it if you want." Oh, sure, I thought. I told him I thought they were missing the boat.

Their Pentax section was pretty anemic - a K5 and about 3 lens choices - so maybe they just don't get along with Pentax. To the point where they're willing to blow off a customer.

Docrwm · 03-26-2012, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by Urkeldaedalus

I don't think Dpreview has a biased agenda, but I do think they have a mainstream view of the camera world that isn't particularly adventurous. The K-01, whether you like it or not, is a different take on mirrorless (big camera with small lenses instead of big lens on small camera), and I think a lot of the flack it has gotten beyond the deserved 'it doesn't have an EVF" criticism is based on the fact that it doesn't fit into what people think a mirrorless camera should look like. I never expected a good review of it from Dpreview.

The most troubling thing to me about the error on the K-01 preview is that it gives me the feeling that they think the K-01 is sort of a joke.

I agree with much of what you are saying, but would point out that deleting comments that are neither inflammatory nor rude does not speak well for them or their ability to act like...well....adults.

**spartan** · 03-26-2012, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by Urkeldaedalus
"The K-01, whether you like it or not, is a different take on mirrorless (big camera with small lenses instead of big lens on small camera)"

THis is indeed the issue. I have been trying to get DP REVIEW to think in these terms ( I am yesman in that forum) but it is like changing a religion. In addtion the performance of the NEX 7 leaves a lot to be desired. the Lens design is not optimal for the sensor size.

zxaar · 03-27-2012, 02:23 AM

Originally posted by spartan

Originally posted by Urkeldaedalus
"The K-01, whether you like it or not, is a different take on mirrorless (big camera with small lenses instead of big lens on small camera)"

THis is indeed the issue. I have been trying to get DP REVIEW to think in these terms ( I am yesman in that forum) but it is like changing a religion. In addtion the performance of the NEX 7 leaves a lot to be desired. the Lens design is not optimal for the sensor size.

Indeed this is the issue, here is my reply to Andy about this point.

Originally posted by Andy Westlake:

Well, let me help you on that. NEX buyers value the remarkable ratio of image quality to size - the NEX-7 is arguably the best APS-C camera out there in terms of overall image quality bar none, and the NEX-5N matches pretty well any SLR (as it uses Sony's superb 16MP sensor, as seen in the K-5). Sony users also like the tilting screen and ability to set the camera up just as you like, despite the limited number of external controls.
.

you sound like a big sony fanboi here. The remarkable ratio of image quality to size may be valid only for e mount lenses. As soon as you think of mounting any other lenses the lens adapter also comes into play which makes your statement very much false. Further to add to it this adapter is not free. The sony alpha adapter costs 33000 yen in japan which is roughly 40 - 50% price of k-01 body.

Medium FormatPro · 03-27-2012, 07:34 AM

Having the almost 25mp sensor in the nex7 is like having a V10 in a Kia.

Any real camera is about the lens/optics and also the ability to control the settings; otherwise you'll might as well be stuck with a P&S

JinDesu · 03-27-2012, 07:43 AM

Originally posted by Medium FormatPro

Having the almost 25mp sensor in the nex7 is like having a V10 in a Kia.

Any real camera is about the lens/optics and also the ability to control the settings; otherwise you'll might as well be stuck with a P&S

The Nissan Juke-R would like to have a word with you

I don't think it's an easy argument to make that the NEX7 would beat the K-01, considering the K-01 can mount the Limited lenses pretty simply and still work without seeming unbalanced. Some of the M4/3 guys have really great fast primes, but I'm not so sure of what available pickings Sony has in that category.

mervis · 03-27-2012, 08:43 AM

Originally posted by zxaar

you sound like a big sony fanboi here.

Not sure about 'fanboi', but Westlake comes off sounding as though he believes a smaller camera is therefore a better camera - without regard to balance or lens compatibility. Based on that criteria an NEX7 automatically becomes his preferred camera.

Originally posted by zxaar

The remarkable ratio of image quality to size may be valid only for e mount lenses.

Now people are noticing that most of the e-mount aren't up to snuff.

rjm · 03-27-2012, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by mervis

Based on that criteria an NEX7 automatically becomes his preferred camera.

The NEX-7 is a pretty amazing piece of kit, and that's coming from someone who generally dislikes Sony's fussy, walkman-esque approach to camera design in general and the NEX system in particular. The three command dials (one front, two aft) are a simply brilliant idea, giving you ISO, shutter speed, and aperture control simultaneously, no shift-press. It's also a solid metal brick, and has a EVF, all in a just-compact-enough-to-be-compact-without-being-cramped size. So yeah I'm not surprised it his preferred camera. It's that slick.

Medium FormatPro · 03-28-2012, 04:17 AM

Also noting all of the issues that the Sony NEX5 had; and also the massive delays there were with the NEX7. Sony lost some major existing customers and also potential customers with both of these issues.

After people were left with the six plus month delay on the NEX7; wondering how many orders were lost??

**Rondec** · 03-28-2012, 04:25 AM

Originally posted by rjm

The NEX-7 is a pretty amazing piece of kit, and that's coming from someone who generally dislikes Sony's fussy, walkman-esque approach to camera design in general and the NEX system in particular. The three command dials (one front, two aft) are a simply brilliant idea, giving you ISO, shutter speed, and aperture control simultaneously, no shift-press. It's also a solid metal brick, and has a EVF, all in a just-compact-enough-to-be-compact-without-being-cramped size. So yeah I'm not surprised it his preferred camera. It's that slick.

Well, I think the question has less to do with the dials and more to do with the ergonomics of large lens/small camera body versus small lens/larger camera body. As of right now, there just aren't very many lenses available for the NEX 7 with ability to mount/auto focus without an adapter. Pentax has quite a few (all their lenses, basically).

Clearly Pentax is behind Sony when it comes to technology. The K-01 is probably just a hair behind the NEX 5 in terms of technology. However, if they continue down the mirrorless path they have chosen, EVF can be added and other improvements as well. However the size of the camera (keeping the k mount dimensions) will not change, nor will the lens sizes change more than slightly.

**monochrome** · 03-28-2012, 07:02 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

Well, I think the question has less to do with the dials and more to do with the ergonomics of large lens/small camera body versus small lens/larger camera body. As of right now, there just aren't very many lenses available for the NEX 7 with ability to mount/auto focus without an adapter. Pentax has quite a few (all their lenses, basically).

Clearly Pentax is behind Sony when it comes to technology. The K-01 is probably just a hair behind the NEX 5 in terms of technology. However, if they continue down the mirrorless path they have chosen, EVF can be added and other improvements as well. However the size of the camera (keeping the k mount dimensions) will not change, nor will the lens sizes change more than slightly.

Pentax's vision for the CSC is, to my mind, the right one. But right now the "marketplace of reviewers" doen't share that vision. I wonder if Pentax could have done a better job of promoting thier thinking to the media press.

mervis · 03-28-2012, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

However the size of the camera (keeping the k mount dimensions) will not change, nor will the lens sizes change more than slightly.

They could maintain the size while shaping the shutter-button side (is that the left or the right?) with a more hand-pleasing form in future iterations.

Disclaimer: I own a K-01 and have very few real-world complaints.

**monochrome** · 03-28-2012, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by mervis

They could maintain the size while shaping the shutter-button side (is that the left or the right?) with a more hand-pleasing form in future iterations.

Disclaimer: I own a K-01 and have very few real-world complaints.

Wouldn't that essentially make it a NoVF K-r?

mervis · 03-28-2012, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

Wouldn't that essentially make it a NoVF K-r?

Not necessarily. We shouldn't be arguing about concepts and non-existant prototypes.

**monochrome** · 03-28-2012, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by mervis

Not necessarily. We shouldn't be arguing about concepts and non-existant prototypes.

Oh I Know - I have one too. I'm just trying to understand the current design implementation before I start thinking about the next one. FWIW I really like the camera. Everything is there. Finding it all is turning out to eb a challenge since my newest dSLR is a K10d.

03-26-2012, 06:46 PM	#78
spartan Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: NJ, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 428	Well said Originally posted by Urkeldaedalus "The K-01, whether you like it or not, is a different take on mirrorless (big camera with small lenses instead of big lens on small camera)" THis is indeed the issue. I have been trying to get DP REVIEW to think in these terms ( I am yesman in that forum) but it is like changing a religion. In addtion the performance of the NEX 7 leaves a lot to be desired. the Lens design is not optimal for the sensor size.

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03-26-2012, 08:24 AM	#76
mervis Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 108 Original Poster	Originally posted by Urkeldaedalus The most troubling thing to me about the error on the K-01 preview is that it gives me the feeling that they think the K-01 is sort of a joke. I hear ya. I was in my city's largest camera retailer and the sales guy smirked at me when I asked about it; said, "we weren't impressed..." Then he made a show of looking it up on the computer, "We could special order it if you want." Oh, sure, I thought. I told him I thought they were missing the boat. Their Pentax section was pretty anemic - a K5 and about 3 lens choices - so maybe they just don't get along with Pentax. To the point where they're willing to blow off a customer.

03-26-2012, 09:13 AM	#77
Docrwm Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Somewhere in the Southern US Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,285	Originally posted by Urkeldaedalus I don't think Dpreview has a biased agenda, but I do think they have a mainstream view of the camera world that isn't particularly adventurous. The K-01, whether you like it or not, is a different take on mirrorless (big camera with small lenses instead of big lens on small camera), and I think a lot of the flack it has gotten beyond the deserved 'it doesn't have an EVF" criticism is based on the fact that it doesn't fit into what people think a mirrorless camera should look like. I never expected a good review of it from Dpreview. The most troubling thing to me about the error on the K-01 preview is that it gives me the feeling that they think the K-01 is sort of a joke. I agree with much of what you are saying, but would point out that deleting comments that are neither inflammatory nor rude does not speak well for them or their ability to act like...well....adults.

03-27-2012, 02:23 AM	#79
zxaar Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: kobe/japan Posts: 510	Originally posted by spartan Originally posted by Urkeldaedalus "The K-01, whether you like it or not, is a different take on mirrorless (big camera with small lenses instead of big lens on small camera)" THis is indeed the issue. I have been trying to get DP REVIEW to think in these terms ( I am yesman in that forum) but it is like changing a religion. In addtion the performance of the NEX 7 leaves a lot to be desired. the Lens design is not optimal for the sensor size. Indeed this is the issue, here is my reply to Andy about this point. Originally posted by Andy Westlake: Well, let me help you on that. NEX buyers value the remarkable ratio of image quality to size - the NEX-7 is arguably the best APS-C camera out there in terms of overall image quality bar none, and the NEX-5N matches pretty well any SLR (as it uses Sony's superb 16MP sensor, as seen in the K-5). Sony users also like the tilting screen and ability to set the camera up just as you like, despite the limited number of external controls. . you sound like a big sony fanboi here. The remarkable ratio of image quality to size may be valid only for e mount lenses. As soon as you think of mounting any other lenses the lens adapter also comes into play which makes your statement very much false. Further to add to it this adapter is not free. The sony alpha adapter costs 33000 yen in japan which is roughly 40 - 50% price of k-01 body.

03-27-2012, 07:34 AM	#80
Medium FormatPro Banned Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Charleston & Pittsburgh Photos: Albums Posts: 1,668	Having the almost 25mp sensor in the nex7 is like having a V10 in a Kia. Any real camera is about the lens/optics and also the ability to control the settings; otherwise you'll might as well be stuck with a P&S

03-27-2012, 07:43 AM	#81
JinDesu Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: New York City Photos: Gallery Posts: 5,638	Originally posted by Medium FormatPro Having the almost 25mp sensor in the nex7 is like having a V10 in a Kia. Any real camera is about the lens/optics and also the ability to control the settings; otherwise you'll might as well be stuck with a P&S The Nissan Juke-R would like to have a word with you I don't think it's an easy argument to make that the NEX7 would beat the K-01, considering the K-01 can mount the Limited lenses pretty simply and still work without seeming unbalanced. Some of the M4/3 guys have really great fast primes, but I'm not so sure of what available pickings Sony has in that category.

03-27-2012, 08:43 AM	#82
mervis Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 108 Original Poster	Originally posted by zxaar you sound like a big sony fanboi here. Not sure about 'fanboi', but Westlake comes off sounding as though he believes a smaller camera is therefore a better camera - without regard to balance or lens compatibility. Based on that criteria an NEX7 automatically becomes his preferred camera. Originally posted by zxaar The remarkable ratio of image quality to size may be valid only for e mount lenses. Now people are noticing that most of the e-mount aren't up to snuff.

03-27-2012, 11:23 PM	#83
rjm Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Kyoto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 72	Originally posted by mervis Based on that criteria an NEX7 automatically becomes his preferred camera. The NEX-7 is a pretty amazing piece of kit, and that's coming from someone who generally dislikes Sony's fussy, walkman-esque approach to camera design in general and the NEX system in particular. The three command dials (one front, two aft) are a simply brilliant idea, giving you ISO, shutter speed, and aperture control simultaneously, no shift-press. It's also a solid metal brick, and has a EVF, all in a just-compact-enough-to-be-compact-without-being-cramped size. So yeah I'm not surprised it his preferred camera. It's that slick.

03-28-2012, 04:17 AM	#84
Medium FormatPro Banned Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Charleston & Pittsburgh Photos: Albums Posts: 1,668	Also noting all of the issues that the Sony NEX5 had; and also the massive delays there were with the NEX7. Sony lost some major existing customers and also potential customers with both of these issues. After people were left with the six plus month delay on the NEX7; wondering how many orders were lost??

03-28-2012, 04:25 AM	#85
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,652	Originally posted by rjm The NEX-7 is a pretty amazing piece of kit, and that's coming from someone who generally dislikes Sony's fussy, walkman-esque approach to camera design in general and the NEX system in particular. The three command dials (one front, two aft) are a simply brilliant idea, giving you ISO, shutter speed, and aperture control simultaneously, no shift-press. It's also a solid metal brick, and has a EVF, all in a just-compact-enough-to-be-compact-without-being-cramped size. So yeah I'm not surprised it his preferred camera. It's that slick. Well, I think the question has less to do with the dials and more to do with the ergonomics of large lens/small camera body versus small lens/larger camera body. As of right now, there just aren't very many lenses available for the NEX 7 with ability to mount/auto focus without an adapter. Pentax has quite a few (all their lenses, basically). Clearly Pentax is behind Sony when it comes to technology. The K-01 is probably just a hair behind the NEX 5 in terms of technology. However, if they continue down the mirrorless path they have chosen, EVF can be added and other improvements as well. However the size of the camera (keeping the k mount dimensions) will not change, nor will the lens sizes change more than slightly.

03-28-2012, 07:02 AM	#86
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by Rondec Well, I think the question has less to do with the dials and more to do with the ergonomics of large lens/small camera body versus small lens/larger camera body. As of right now, there just aren't very many lenses available for the NEX 7 with ability to mount/auto focus without an adapter. Pentax has quite a few (all their lenses, basically). Clearly Pentax is behind Sony when it comes to technology. The K-01 is probably just a hair behind the NEX 5 in terms of technology. However, if they continue down the mirrorless path they have chosen, EVF can be added and other improvements as well. However the size of the camera (keeping the k mount dimensions) will not change, nor will the lens sizes change more than slightly. Pentax's vision for the CSC is, to my mind, the right one. But right now the "marketplace of reviewers" doen't share that vision. I wonder if Pentax could have done a better job of promoting thier thinking to the media press.

03-28-2012, 09:36 AM	#87
mervis Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 108 Original Poster	Originally posted by Rondec However the size of the camera (keeping the k mount dimensions) will not change, nor will the lens sizes change more than slightly. They could maintain the size while shaping the shutter-button side (is that the left or the right?) with a more hand-pleasing form in future iterations. Disclaimer: I own a K-01 and have very few real-world complaints.

03-28-2012, 09:59 AM	#88
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by mervis They could maintain the size while shaping the shutter-button side (is that the left or the right?) with a more hand-pleasing form in future iterations. Disclaimer: I own a K-01 and have very few real-world complaints. Wouldn't that essentially make it a NoVF K-r?

03-28-2012, 02:35 PM	#89
mervis Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 108 Original Poster	Originally posted by monochrome Wouldn't that essentially make it a NoVF K-r? Not necessarily. We shouldn't be arguing about concepts and non-existant prototypes.

03-28-2012, 02:54 PM	#90
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by mervis Not necessarily. We shouldn't be arguing about concepts and non-existant prototypes. Oh I Know - I have one too. I'm just trying to understand the current design implementation before I start thinking about the next one. FWIW I really like the camera. Everything is there. Finding it all is turning out to eb a challenge since my newest dSLR is a K10d.