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3 Likes | Search this Thread |
03-24-2012, 02:00 PM | #31 |
I know. That's precisely why I referred to the camera world as an "elite boutique." People who are willing to pay prices that are much higher than they really need to be (and who don't see a problem with it) are the ones who encourage corporations to price their products too highly. In so doing, they both make those products unaffordable (or, at least, a very irresponsible purchase) for many other people (the same is true of the modern housing industry, automobile industry, restaurant and services industries, etc.). | |
03-24-2012, 02:19 PM | #32 |
Loyal Site Supporter | A Spotmatic SP body-only cost $190 in 1964, which is about $1,395 in 2012 dollars. A K-01 body-only MSRP is $749.
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03-24-2012, 02:25 PM | #33 |
Loyal Site Supporter |
How much money would you and I be willing to PAY for a subscription-only Firmware update to upgrade your K-5 to Focus Peaking? Ot for that matter any other upgrade, assuming it could be done via Firmware.
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03-24-2012, 02:33 PM | #34 |
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03-24-2012, 02:35 PM | #35 |
I wish that more companies would use the kickstarter method of funding things. If they aren't sure that they'd recoup their cost, put it out there and ask for the money up front. If they don't raise enough money, nothing happens. If they do, everyone is happy!
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03-24-2012, 02:45 PM | #36 |
I guess it depends on ones point of view and business philosophy (I actually once practiced what I preach, much to my boss's/dad's initial frustration; but he later reluctantly admitted that I attracted a lot more loyal customers -- and profits -- because I sold them more for less). Pentax is definitely still making a profit on the K-5, even at $999 (since it is obviously profiting on the K-01 at $749 [since similar assembly-line costs and a similar amount of materials are involved]). That means that it was making well over $600 additional profit on each and every K-5 when it was initially priced at $1,599. Pentax may have made a lot of money on each unit at that higher price, but it certainly didn't sell as many as it would have at $999 or even $1,099. If we want Pentax to become a lot larger -- in order to compete with Canon and Nikon -- then it needs to sell lots of high quality cameras at reasonably lower profit margins than a few high quality cameras at much higher profit margins. [source] I'd also argue that the new Nikons and canons are now occupying the price points that Hasselblad, Mamiya, Rollei, Linhof, Sinar, etc. used to in the film days. If you go back and look, I think you'll also find that those cameras and systems could have bought you a car as well back then. The current crop of high end products from the likes of Phase One, Hasselblad, etc. could possibly still be cheaper than what they used back in the 80's when you take things like workflow, time, and materials into consideration as well. Total cost is the key from a purchaser's standpoint, especially at the high end where it is presumed that the cameras are bought to make money. Last edited by Welfl; 03-24-2012 at 02:56 PM. | |
03-24-2012, 02:46 PM | #37 |
03-24-2012, 03:13 PM | #38 |
03-24-2012, 03:39 PM | #39 |
Loyal Site Supporter | Considering the lack of ongoing expenses, that's quite a bargain as compared to the Spotmatic! Even the k-5 is a tremendous bargain. Overall, I'd hasten to guess that in raw numbers, the photography hobby cost has been cut in half for typical users. Heavy shooters would save even more. That's not even considering the time spent in processing, or waiting for processing that every single roll of film had to go through. N wonder people are willing to "spend more" for the camera, even if they really aren't. Lightroom = $149 CS5 $1299 Canon Photo Printer = $849 My time "developing" all my images @$300 / hour (my gross revenue rate in my real job) >> $15,000 That buys a lot of film. |
03-24-2012, 03:48 PM | #40 |
I don't know how much I would be willing to pay, but I would be glad to have that option. Considering most of the work has already been done on the focus-peaking software itself, and it only remains to adapt it to the K-5's specific architecture, I would think $5 would be a reasonable amount. I'm basing that on the prices of tens of thousands of pieces of shareware on the market. At $5 per download, times several thousand downloads (theoretically), that would be a nice little profit for Pentax (with zero overhead costs that I can think of). Or, at the very least, Pentax wouldn't lose any money. | |
03-24-2012, 03:50 PM | #41 |
I guess it depends on ones point of view and business philosophy (I actually once practiced what I preach, much to my boss's/dad's initial frustration; but he later reluctantly admitted that I attracted a lot more loyal customers -- and profits -- because I sold them more for less). Pentax is definitely still making a profit on the K-5, even at $999 (since it is obviously profiting on the K-01 at $749 [since similar assembly-line costs and a similar amount of materials are involved]). That means that it was making well over $600 additional profit on each and every K-5 when it was initially priced at $1,599. Pentax may have made a lot of money on each unit at that higher price, but it certainly didn't sell as many as it would have at $999 or even $1,099. If we want Pentax to become a lot larger -- in order to compete with Canon and Nikon -- then it needs to sell lots of high quality cameras at reasonably lower profit margins than a few high quality cameras at much higher profit margins. [source] Quote: I know. I understood that from the start, but I replied the way I did because our (your and my) original photography costs should not have anything to do with the prices that camera companies charge. Quote: Yes, those companies were the self-defined "elite boutique" set of the old days -- just because they said so, not because there was any particular justification for it --, and they were very rare among the general population. The 35mm SLR cameras of the past were priced like the mid-level and high-end P&S cameras today (and hundreds of millions of people around the world owned them), even though they (35mm SLRs) are actually the direct ancestors of modern dSLRs, not P&S cameras; therefore, dSLRs -- at least mid- and medium-high-level dSLRs -- should not have entered the "elite boutique." I'll say this though, those cameras were not self-defined elites, they were primarily aiming at the professional markets in a variety of fields ranging from portraiture to weddings, to landscape. Did you ever work in the camera industry? I sold gear from 8 years during the transition from film to digital. Hasselblad, Rollei, Mamiya had their own cost structure and demands that were far different from the mainstream. Yes, you don't think they "should have" cost what they did, but the volumes they sold in and the quality expected coupled with the demand from the end users determined the sales price of the cameras. As it turns out, the prices were as the should have been. Quote: I agree; but lots of products have been sold since the beginning of time that people use in order to make money, things such as telephones, light bulbs, lawn mowers, pickup trucks, vans, scanners, desks (and even cheaper cameras at newspapers and on web sites), etc., etc., etc., but the companies that sell them don't price them with the idea that the buyer might make a profit using them. | |
03-24-2012, 03:50 PM | #42 |
03-24-2012, 03:54 PM | #43 |
But your computer is a general use device, you would own it regardless. Pricing your labor at your hobby the same as your job isn't really all that realistic. But even still, would you spend more or less time in a darkroom? Unless you re actually giving up income in order to do your hobby, I still think you're coming out ahead with digital | |
03-24-2012, 04:10 PM | #44 |
Actually, I based my "irresponsible purchase" comment on the number of people during this past week who have written (in so many words) here at PF that their present budgets were not really sufficient to allow them to buy a K-5, even at $999, yet they went ahead and did it anyway -- and they are now awaiting the wrath of their spouses when their spouses find out. I know all sorts of people who bought stuff that they could not afford and later had that stuff repossessed. Millions of Americans foolishly bought houses they could not afford in recent years (houses that are -- without rhyme or reason -- three, four and five times higher than they were in the 1990s, just because the government and banks made the loans so easy to get), and they had to abandon them. As a result, there are now millions of empty houses on the market, and too few people who are willing to buy them. My point is that lots of people do make irresponsible purchases, and the "irresponsible" part is not just a matter of a subjective opinion. I'm sure no one went to the poor house for buying a camera that emptied their bank account for a month or so, but some of them may have been irresponsible for taking money away from the necessities. Quote: Maybe this is a business philosophy that is no longer practiced, but I remember in the "old days" (late 20th century) that most businesses seemed to use a relatively standard percentage ratio when pricing their products. I probably have the exact number wrong, but it seems that 30% (give or take) over cost was the standard markup that companies used. Yes, that was certainly a subjective standardization, but it seemed to be one that was almost universally agreed upon (there were exceptions, of course, like Hasselblad, Mercedes, etc.). Whenever I have written "too highly," "outrageously high," etc. I was referring to that (apparently former) standard, not just to my own personal subject beliefs. Quote: Did you use the Inflation Calculator to come up with those findings? One thing that we might tend to forget when calculating inflation is that most people's incomes (i.e. "income inflation") has not kept up pace with price inflation. It's not even close in some cases. | |
03-24-2012, 04:58 PM | #45 |
Welfl: therefore, dSLRs -- at least mid- and medium-high-level dSLRs -- should not have entered the "elite boutique." With regard to the rest, we'll just have to agree that we see things differently. We both have some valid points (or so I would like to think). I would love to go on until we come to an understanding, but I'm really tired (I can't find a tired emoticon, so just assume my eyes are closed behind these glasses ). | |
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