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03-26-2013, 01:38 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
It has been discussed here to death. Unique is not necessary, nor is it desirable. Better is what is required.

To compete in EVERY market segment in one dSLR camera
  • They already have better IQ
  • They already have very good High ISO
  • They already have better ergonomics
  • They already have better weather sealing
  • They already have better bodies
  • They already have better UI (Menus)
  • They need 100% viewfinders
  • They need better flash
    • and external flashes
  • They need better AF
    • different features for different users - faster, more AF points, smaller, more accurate
  • They need faster shutter
    • especially for sports/action/birding
  • They need a faster buffer
  • They need tethering
  • There are plenty of small features such as dual card slots they could offer
  • They need a professional support network
    • which just isn't possible quickly
  • They need lenses for FF
They need MARKETING
Why would they need to compete with every camera on the market?
It will make it a jack of all trades but a master of non.

As for some points...
- 100% viewfinder, Pentax has one of the lowest tier camera with one, so it's already best at that.
- Better flash would be nice but not essiential.
- Af... i really don't want the crazy amount of AF points Nikon has and i aint the only one.
- 1/8000 is quite the norm right?
- Buffer is more then fast and big enough, what they need is a faster processor but that is most likely coming.
- they indeed need tethering
- they already have a camera with dual slot SD
- Pro network is indeed needed, got a direct line now with the importer here so that's quite nice. They offer replacement units when some need repair.
- FF lenses if there is no FF camera is a bit wierd...

03-26-2013, 02:09 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
Why would they need to compete with every camera on the market? It will make it a jack of all trades but a master of non.
Doesn't matter what anyone writes on this Forum, someone has a contradictroy statement.

That Reply should have read "a dSLR" in a market segment rather than "one dSLR," since this thread is about K-01 MILC. It was a followup to my post regarding the challenges of breaking into a fragmented market when there are two dominant maufacturers. Canon and Nikon have successfully fragmented the camera market, which leaves effective barriers (small shares available to exploit) to entry by competitors.

The earlier post explains - the response rather snarkily asked what kind of magic formula I "suggest" Pentax employ. I merely summarized all the possible "things" I could think of that have been discussed at PF. Those are not necessarily what I would do, nor do I really care any more. They've worn me out waiting for things that never come, and made me fearful that whatever the remaining value of my gear is - it can be cut 90% in a day at the whim of Ricoh.

As time passes with no evident major strategic changes, I become increasingly suspicious that there is nothing Pentax Ricoh can do without enduring substantially below average profit margins for an extended period of time, and I become increasingly doubtful Ricoh will allocate the necessary investment over time to compete as the "strong third" they've said they want to be if they have to endure below average returns to get there.

Is that clear enough?

Last edited by monochrome; 03-26-2013 at 02:20 PM.
03-26-2013, 02:45 PM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
As time passes with no evident major strategic changes, I become increasingly suspicious that there is nothing Pentax Ricoh can do without enduring substantially below average profit margins for an extended period of time, and I become increasingly doubtful Ricoh will allocate the necessary investment over time to compete as the "strong third" they've said they want to be if they have to endure below average returns to get there.
There's something you are not considering monochrome. It was stated right from the start that Ricoh was buying into the DSLR business in order to compete with Canon. Ricoh and Canon are #1 and 2 in the copier business. If Ricoh can heat up competition and take some market share in the camera business, it will be at Canon's expense, weakening their main competitor. Of course this is not the only reason they bought Pentax, apparently there were some synergies involved in Medium Frame that Ricoh wanted to leverage.
03-26-2013, 05:49 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
It was stated right from the start that Ricoh was buying into the DSLR business in order to compete with Canon. Ricoh and Canon are #1 and 2 in the copier business
I certainly hope you are right, especially sicne Ricoh became #1 by acquisition more than by internal growth (and of course Pentax was an acquisition).

Those statements and that business objective were made prior to Ricoh enduring the first losing year in its entire publicly-traded history. In response to same, Ricoh has embarked on a cost containment and restructuring strategy that extends through FY March 2014. As I wrote, I am suspiscous and doubtful but not yet convinced.

While I was optimistic just a year ago, and looking back I am astoonsihed at the sheer number of new products Pentax Ricoh has introduced, they've simply worn me out waiting for something that clearly demonstrates Ricoh's influence, not just taking partially complete Hoya designs and finsihing them.

03-26-2013, 10:31 PM   #65
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@monochrome -- let's see if we can take a few shortcuts. My first career was in advertising, and a good agency can create a lot of excitement about a product. If the product even sort of lives up to the buzz, it will do well. I'm thinking of the original VW -- the Beetle -- which was a terrible car, but very well marketed. So, to your list --
-- They need 100% viewfinders -- Not to start an argument, but can anyone tell the difference between 95% and 100%?
-- They need better flash -- Amateurs don't care, and pros use their own speedlights. I'd just make sure it works with Nikon gear, like the SB900, and with PocketWizards. No need to re-invent that wheel.
-- They need better AF -- Yes, and I'd use a pro in the ads telling how great it is.
-- different features for different users - faster, more AF points, smaller, more accurate -- Wouldn't bother. Angels on the head of a pin? Again, I'd have a pro going on about how great it is, as it is. Or ads from that soldier in Afghanistan with his videos about using the K-5 in the mud.
-- They need faster shutter, especially for sports/action/birding -- Really? I don't know how fast the K-5 IIs is, but my cheap K-01 goes to 1/4000... can't that stop any bird or plane or car or sports action?
-- They need a faster buffer -- Yes.
-- They need tethering -- Yes, if I'm understanding that this means connecting to a PC or tablet.
-- There are plenty of small features such as dual card slots they could offer -- Yes, but I'd check around first -- with pro photographers -- to see if anybody actually uses them.
-- They need a professional support network -- YES! This one's BIG. Like the Nikon and Canon gear rooms at the Olympics. Real help onsite at key events. And -- Pentax pros visiting large camera stores. Online Pentax training with pros.
-- Which just isn't possible quickly -- No, it IS possible -- given a full budget, you can pull it together vey, very quickly. Would it take a lot of money to regain market presence fast? Sure. Does Ricoh have a lot of money? Sure. Does the camera market need a lot of marketing money compared to other Ricoh product areas? No, it's small change.
-- They need lenses for FF -- maybe, but I wouldn't hold up a FF camera while dedicated digital FF lenses are being designed for it. There are a ton of existing FF lenses... why not just put a few back in production, repackaged? Old wine in a new box? Hey, Leica does it all day long.
-- I'll add this one -- they need a fast f/2.8 70-200mm AF telephoto, for sports (if they don't have one already). Go right after Nikon.

Your last point was Marketing. Absolutely agree. And am pleased that Ricoh now owns Pentax. Ricoh has a LOT of money -- far more than Nikon. Years ago, I made ads for a Ricoh photo-copier, marketed under the Savin brand name. It was a great account -- they spent what it took to get noticed, and then some. So I'm hopeful -- leopards don't change their spots, and Ricoh's an aggressive, highly professional company. We'll see changes, soon.

EDIT -- just re-read your above post -- about Ricoh having a bad year. Wouldn't worry too much about that -- our economy's picking up, and that will float all the boats around the world. Although I wouldn't want to be the Ricoh copier guy in Athens these days.

Last edited by jon404; 03-26-2013 at 10:39 PM.
03-27-2013, 04:39 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
While I was optimistic just a year ago, and looking back I am astonsihed at the sheer number of new products Pentax Ricoh has introduced, they've simply worn me out waiting for something that clearly demonstrates Ricoh's influence, not just taking partially complete Hoya designs and finsihing them.
Pentax executives have stated more than once that it takes 18 months to 2 years to market a new product. We are just now coming up to 18 months. Your angst is self-inflicted, new product is coming.
03-27-2013, 06:29 AM   #67
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I find it exceedingly ironic that
  • when in late 2001 and early 2012, when my Signature Tag (and the closing line of all my posts) was "Be of good cheer, Pentaxians. Ricoh has a plan and you will be happy." I received snide replies all the time (and even a few PM's)
  • When I bought first-day and wrote positively about my K-01 I was roundly and regularly criticized, to the point that I even Reported a post!! So I went away for a few months
  • When I wrote in what I thought was an even-handed analysis of Ricoh, counseled patience and suggested setting expectations in view of the realities of the global economy, Ricoh's stock price and the restructuring plan (which clearly had an effect on the investment at Pentax) I was accused of being a proto-capitalist "Golden Boy" financial wizard who cares about nothing but money.
Now that I'm expressing a bit of skepticism and frustration over Ricoh's implementation of their stated plans in the face of two dominant players that have systematically fragmented the dSLR market - expressing frustration really because there is a total information vacuum from Ricoh (which allows these ridiculous rumors to take root), i'm being ......

well, not criticized ...... nor sarcastically rebuffed - but certainly "educated."
03-27-2013, 11:12 AM   #68
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@monochrome -- what was it Doris Day sang, 'Que sera, sera?' There is other game afoot, like your Cardinals coming in from spring training, and putting your K-01 on Vibrant for a sunny day at the ballpark, and a beer or three to steady the telephoto lens. All those fans in bright red shirts, waving bright red towels! Red! It's enough to make old Communists think that St. Louis is heaven on earth, as well they should.

03-27-2013, 02:06 PM   #69
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Thanks Mono, I got it now.

Ricoh did improve some things though.
Road map is a big deal and camera like the K-30 one of the first camera to be made under Ricoh is very promising.
645D IR good sign of the promise to put 645 technology into the busniss sector.
The Rocoh name is not going to be used for camera's anymore.
Rehiring some of the "old" lens desigeners masters Hoya fired.
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