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12-21-2013, 02:34 PM   #1
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K-01's 25 minute movie recording limit? (for 16mm film transfer)

I'm always toying with the idea of getting a K-01 but once I come up with a good use case for one I end up figuring out how to do the same with my K-30.

Now I want to build up a small film transferring rig and my K-30 lacks an external microphone input. The K-01 seems to have this feature would be great for recording the film's audio at a higher quality than what could be achieved by using a speaker and the K-30's internal microphone. I think that the APS sized sensor with one of M42 or K-mount primes should yield good results. Plus, the prices of K-01 bodies seems relatively reasonable.

The only editing I would do after the recording is trimming off a bit of the start and end of the video file which would see me starting the projector and turning it off.

DP Review says that the K-01 has a video recording time limit of 25 minutes. My films could be as long as 45 or 55 minutes.

First, I would like to confirm the existence of the time limit. Anyone?

Second, if it exists, I would like to know if there's a FW update to get around this.

Thanks!!

12-21-2013, 02:45 PM   #2
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The limit is 4Gb file sizes (FAT32 restriction with SDHC cards). At highest quality setting 4Gb is reached in about 16 minutes.
I'm sure it would be trivial to seamlessly join clips.
For audio, I'd opt for a high quality external recorder like a Zoom H2n then sync in post. Again, this is quite easy to do.
12-22-2013, 08:46 AM   #3
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Thanks for the reply, Steve! The limitations of the FAT32 file system didn't even come to my mind as I was thinking about this. I suppose then that every camera would fall prey to this fact.

Unless... there's a camera out that there that doesn't use FAT32?
12-22-2013, 01:30 PM   #4
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Some cameras will simply start a new file automatically once 4Gb has been reached to continue the recording.
I'm not sure if the K-01 does this, I have never recorded a movie clip over 1Gb in one take on any camera.

PS: I know the K-01 starts a new folder once 500 images have been reached when interval shooting has been set to more than 500.

12-24-2013, 04:34 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steve.Ledger Quote
The limit is 4Gb file sizes (FAT32 restriction with SDHC cards). At highest quality setting 4Gb is reached in about 16 minutes.
I'm sure it would be trivial to seamlessly join clips.
For audio, I'd opt for a high quality external recorder like a Zoom H2n then sync in post. Again, this is quite easy to do.
I don't think there is a 3.15Gb FAT32 limit on SD cards that are formatted in camera, they use a DCIM (Digital Camera Image Management) file to keep a record of where in the memory map each image or video begins and ends. No camera uses a FAT32 (or FAT 64 for that matter) file system or every camera would be limited to 3.15Gb of addressable memory (note 3.15GB is the FAT32 limit - not 4Gb). There was an issue of not being able to write over a page of memory and continuing in the next page on some cameras, not sure about the K-01, this issue has been sorted for a number of years. SD cards have pages of memory with 1Gb, 2Gb or a maximum of 4Gb pages depending on card memory size. This is one reason why you must format the card in camera, never on a computer. Formatting in camera simply replaces the DCIM file with a new empty one, it doesn't erase any images, they just become invisible to the camera and are simply overwritten by subsequent images or videos, which is why image recovery software works they just detect the separate images or videos and re-write a DCIM file within the software.

The 29 minute 59 seconds limit is a copyright licensing agreement issue imposed by the film industry, mainly Sony, to stop people going to a movie and recording it, and can be removed with a hack on Panasonic GH2 cameras. The GH2 is the only interchangeable lens camera I know of where video is the primary function, other than some high end dedicated camcorders of course.

Chris
12-24-2013, 05:53 AM   #6
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QuoteQuote:
Formatting in camera simply replaces the DCIM file with a new empty one,
Digital Camera IMages, a directory name in the Design rule for Camera File system, it's not a file.

Design rule for Camera File system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

>>No camera uses a FAT32<<
Are you sure?

QuoteQuote:
DCF specifies the file system for image and sound files to be used on formatted DCF media (like removable or non-removable memory) as FAT12, FAT16, FAT32, or exFAT.[1] Media with a capacity of more than 2 GB must be formatted using FAT32 or exFAT.
Also check the official SD Association for further reading;
https://www.sdcard.org/developers/overview/capacity/

QuoteQuote:
SDHC standard - over 2GB-32GB SDHC memory card using FAT32 file system

Last edited by Steve.Ledger; 12-24-2013 at 06:04 AM.
12-24-2013, 06:16 AM   #7
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FYI: The 4gb limit is confirmed in the manual.

Last edited by Steve.Ledger; 08-10-2014 at 10:12 PM.
12-24-2013, 06:43 AM   #8
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The K-01 limiteds it's recording time to 16 minutes and 22 seconds at maximum quality. One step down and you can reach 25 minutes.

The K-3 can record up to 25 minutes even at the best quality, since it just uses the full 4 GB space, instead off the K-01 stopping earlier at 3,xx GB.

12-24-2013, 08:27 AM   #9
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All these pertain to what happens when you plug the card into a card reader on your computer running Windows or Mac OS, your computer uses it's own built in FAT system, inside the camera your working with machine code and Amtel or Pic chips. neither of which use a FAT file format for controlling memory, or, more accurately, a very basic one which is where the DCIM file comes in, The DCIM file IS the memory allocation table, the memory is just one contiguous block of memory divided (usually with larger cards) into 4Gb pages which is where the 4Gb limit comes from, if the limitation was due to the 32bit FAT system the limit would be 3.15GB, the highest number for memory locations that can be stored in a 32bit file system.

If you open a DCIM file in a Hex Editor the header shows the size of the card and the page size, if you have taken any images it will show the camera header, make model, serial number and other base Exif data etc. etc. and any IPTC data such as copyright info if you have entered your copyright data into the camera.

The next block of data is the image data plus the Exif data for that image (lens, aperture, shutter speed etc), if you shoot Raw it will carry the RGB data for every pixel. This data is converted by your computer into an .xmp file for use with Adobe Camera Raw or other Raw converter and includes the instructions the camera applied to the image data to make it into a coherent image.

If you shoot Jpeg it's just the Exif and image data after conversion and your computer creates a .jpg file.

At the end of every image file you'll find an 'end of data' instruction which, in Hex, is always FF D9. The next image is stored in the next data block and so on until the card is full or until it hits a page boundary when the next image is stored at the beginning of the next memory page. Unlike a FAT system there is no pre-allocation of memory space, every image file will be a different size depending on image content. It's a much more efficient file management system in memory space than FAT.

Chris
12-25-2013, 02:33 PM   #10
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So what happens once the 4GB file size is reached? Does the K-01 just stop or does it create a new file to keep recording?
12-25-2013, 07:44 PM   #11
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As mentioned in the manual, the K-01 stops recording when the file size reaches 4Gb (less one byte which is the limitation of the FAT32 file system to which digital cameras write).

My K-01 get's pretty hot within a few minutes of continuous recording, my guess is that even if it were possible to record for so long the camera would shut down well before 45 - 55 minutes is reached. I'd consider the limitation a safety feature as much as anything else.

Also, have a look here ► 30 minute limit on video capture could end if WTO group gets its way: Digital Photography Review
12-26-2013, 01:02 AM   #12
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6BQ5 : I wouldn't use the camera for this purpose.

I'm obsessive about the cameras good points, but it has severely limited use when recording audio. Neither the onboard mic or the Mic Input will provide high enough quality sound for your useage, as the Sound Floor ( the background hiss, where recorded sounds become hidden when recording quiet sounds) is way too high, and the camera only records at 32kHz sample rate.

There is too much hiss, and not enough quality, to reproduce sounds useable for the majority of playback demands.

When using the K-01 for short films, I always use external sound recorders, such as a Zoom H4n, for the sound. At live rock band performances, where the sound level is ridiculously loud, the onboard mic is fine for syncing multiple camera, or direct to web use.
12-26-2013, 06:37 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steve.Ledger Quote
My K-01 get's pretty hot within a few minutes of continuous recording, my guess is that even if it were possible to record for so long the camera would shut down well before 45 - 55 minutes is reached. I'd consider the limitation a safety feature as much as anything else.
Had no trouble with that. I did record soccergames, with a camera behind the goal and made the game in 6 parts. Three parts for each half off the game and totaling 95 minutes or so. No problems with the overheating. It does get warm, but it can distribute it's heat sufficent enough I guess.
12-26-2013, 02:55 PM   #14
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Might be climate related as I live in tropical North Qld, Australia - Ron. Even the Q get's hot when used for a few minutes continuously.
12-26-2013, 04:29 PM   #15
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So it sounds like the K-01 isn't a good fit for what I am trying to do. I know this will take the thread down a left turn here but what camera would be better then? My hope would still be to use one of my manual focus K-mount primes.
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