Pentax K-01 failure? No one knows it exists.

AsahiGlass · 10-31-2018, 08:06 PM - **1 Like**

Resurrect Steve Jobs and ask for his advise...

**THoog** · 10-31-2018, 08:34 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by AsahiGlass

If you own a Nissan you essentially drive a Renault/ Peugeot/Citroen because they own Nissan...BTW

Renault owns a 44% stake in Nissan, but Nissan owns a 15% stake in Renault. They are still separate companies, and while Nissan sells a couple rebadged Renault models in some markets, it's not in the US. Neither owns any part of PSA Peugeot Citroen, so far as I can tell.

Anyhow, this still supports my point - it was years after withdrawing from the US market that a renewed Renault was able to partner with a struggling Nissan. Having little to no presence in the US does not always equal stagnation, or death, especially with the US market rapidly contracting. Being saddled with a vast infrastructure designed around a consumer base that has changed their tastes could also be fatal, whether your company is Sears, or Nikon.

**monochrome** · 10-31-2018, 08:35 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by AsahiGlass

I agree that the market for digital cameras is falling. But they gotta do something. Being stagnant and not proactive =Death.

Sears catalog was what Amazon is today, samething with JC Penney, but Walmart pulled it off because they embraced change.

If you own a Nissan you essentially drive a Renault/ Peugeot/Citroen because they own Nissan...BTW

Sigh.

They’re not stagnant, and they don’t ‘gotta’ do anything. They’re just not doing what you want and what you think they should. Unless you think they’re a bunch of benighted old men who don’t know what they’re doing (they’re not - they’re bright, energetic, young and motivated). Read the Special Sites.

They’re doing what they believe will allow the company to survive this retrenchment, then thrive in a fashion different from other companies using the traditional high volume, low margin business model (what you think they should be doing and everyone else is doing). They seem to have chosen a low-volume, high margin model, investing and reinvesting cash flow in distinctive technologies and features, superb optics, deliberately building on their reputation in the one market where they’re competitive - Japan - and taking incremental revenue from more competitive, more expensive consumer markets. In the US they can’t generate enough cash flow now to support the market. EU is similar.

My educated guess is they’re using this quiet time, which feels frustrating, to develop cameras worthy of the D FA* lenses, else why develop them? And they’ll do it at a lower price, for features, than the big brands. I’ll buy that value all day long, and they don’t have to spend marketing money explaining to me why I should.

AsahiGlass · 10-31-2018, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by THoog

Renault owns a 44% stake in Nissan, but Nissan owns a 15% stake in Renault. They are still separate companies, and while Nissan sells a couple rebadged Renault models in some markets, it's not in the US. Neither owns any part of PSA Peugeot Citroen, so far as I can tell.

Anyhow, this still supports my point - it was years after withdrawing from the US market that a renewed Renault was able to partner with a struggling Nissan. Having little to no presence in the US does not always equal stagnation, or death, especially with the US market rapidly contracting. Being saddled with a vast infrastructure designed around a consumer base that has changed their tastes could also be fatal, whether your company is Sears, or Nikon.

Yeah and Chrysler bought Fiat, And VW is owned by Lamborghini... :lol

We just have to wait and see I guess.

**clackers** · 10-31-2018, 09:00 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by AsahiGlass

Resurrect Steve Jobs and ask for his advise...

IT was a booming market, AsahiGlass, right from the 80s.

Digital cameras isn't - it peaked back in 2012, and phones have become pretty good for ad hoc pictures!

The industries are very different, and what the Google board does has no lessons for the board of, say, Leica.

**PJ1** · 11-01-2018, 02:31 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by clackers

what the Google board does has no lessons for the board of, say, Leica.

Now there's a point. If you are ever in the Queen Victoria Building in Sydney, on the top floor (where it gets more ritzy as you go up) there is a very large store front with a few artiistically placed items displayed in the windows. Inside there are scattered items of merchandise, again very artistic displays, with lots of open space for potential buyers to stand and contemplate the products. There are no crowds to push through. No price tags either that I could see. It is very plush. Not for plebeians like me. The name "Leica" is emblazoned above the door.

On the other hand you could go to Castle Towers Shopping Centre in Castle Hill where there is a Sony site in the middle of the walk through areas. Lots of stock, all with prices and marked down stickers. Staff to corral you the moment you glance at something.

I guess they both know what they are doing and why.

AsahiGlass · 11-01-2018, 06:00 AM - **2 Likes**

Ok...you guys are missing the point. Leica has these stupid stores call "Leica boutique" , they are in Berlin, Paris and Moscow...oh and West Palm Beach

But they wont carry Pentax. I'm gonna ask "The ProShop" why and I will post their answer.

Oh and at the Leica Boutique ya get hassled if they smell money.

**clackers** · 11-01-2018, 12:09 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by AsahiGlass

Oh and at the Leica Boutique ya get hassled if they smell money.

(Laughs)

**PJ1** · 11-01-2018, 03:49 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by AsahiGlass

Oh and at the Leica Boutique ya get hassled if they smell money.

I should have gone in for a look. They wouldn't hassle me!

**clackers** · 11-01-2018, 04:02 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by PJ1

I should have gone in for a look. They wouldn't hassle me!

You rocking a bit of a 'I clean windscreens at intersections' look when you go out, PJ? :P

**monochrome** · 11-01-2018, 05:18 PM - **3 Likes**

Originally posted by AsahiGlass

Ok...you guys are missing the point. Leica has these stupid stores call "Leica boutique" , they are in Berlin, Paris and Moscow...oh and West Palm Beach

But they wont carry Pentax. I'm gonna ask "The ProShop" why and I will post their answer.

Oh and at the Leica Boutique ya get hassled if they smell money.

Dealers won’t carry Pentax because RIcoh (and before that Hoya and before that Pentax and before that Asahi) doesn’t offer Dealer Credit. IOW, Dealers would actually have to buy Pentax inventory with real money, rather than accepting shipped inventory and a promissory note agreeing to pay for it in 90 or 180 days.

Gee, I wonder why B&M Dealers are so obsessed with inventory turn? They’re essentially running their businesses on Cash Flow with someone else’s money. High volume / low margin levered businesses are really great, right up until the next recession. Did you know Nikon was the largest creditor of Ritz Camera when they went under - $69,000,000! They were awarded Debtor in Possession status during the liquidation phase, and lost buckets of money. So did Canon.

Pentax didn’t lose a dime. I rest.

MarkJerling · 11-01-2018, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

Dealers won’t carry Pentax because RIcoh (and before that Hoya and before that Pentax and before that Asahi) doesn’t offer Dealer Credit. IOW, Dealers would actually have to buy Pentax inventory with real money, rather than accepting shipped inventory and a promissory note agreeing to pay for it in 90 or 180 days.

Gee, I wonder why B&M Dealers are so obsessed with inventory turn? They’re essentially running their businesses on Cash Flow with someone else’s money. High volume / low margin levered businesses are really great, right up until the next recession. Did you know Nikon was the largest creditor of Ritz Camera when they went under - $69,000,000! They were awarded Debtor in Possession status during the liquidation phase, and lost buckets of money. So did Canon.

Pentax didn’t lose a dime. I rest.

Now that's really interesting! I did not know that. Suddenly, it all makes sense why you never see Pentax in the shops.

Docrwm · 11-01-2018, 05:42 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

Dealers won’t carry Pentax because RIcoh (and before that Hoya and before that Pentax and before that Asahi) doesn’t offer Dealer Credit. IOW, Dealers would actually have to buy Pentax inventory with real money, rather than accepting shipped inventory and a promissory note agreeing to pay for it in 90 or 180 days.

Gee, I wonder why B&M Dealers are so obsessed with inventory turn? They’re essentially running their businesses on Cash Flow with someone else’s money. High volume / low margin levered businesses are really great, right up until the next recession. Did you know Nikon was the largest creditor of Ritz Camera when they went under - $69,000,000! They were awarded Debtor in Possession status during the liquidation phase, and lost buckets of money. So did Canon.

Pentax didn’t lose a dime. I rest.

Methinks I have heard you say all that before. My, go away for a couple of years and the stories and questions don't change all that much do they

**monochrome** · 11-01-2018, 05:51 PM - **3 Likes**

Originally posted by MarkJerling

Now that's really interesting! I did not know that. Suddenly, it all makes sense why you never see Pentax in the shops.

According to a retired Canon Rep acquaintance who worked for Honeywell and Asahi before switching, Asahi started gradually raising Dealer minimums and restricting Dealer Credit in the mid 70’s, when Canon and Nikon we’re making the big push, Oly and Minolta were very competitive second-tier companies. They were investing SMC royalties in the higher margin businesses Hoya stripped and gradually starving Imaging themselves!! This state of affairs is of their own making.

In all fairness, Dealers expect the manufacturer to support the product with marketing and infrastructure to help them turn the inventory. Pentax doesn’t really do support either,so Dealers don’t want to risk their own money stocking Pentax, much less be on the hook for unsold inventory and a 90 day note coming due. My local Dealer where I bought My K-1 and 28-105 has finally given up. I have to use New York Internet now. (I won’t do Amazon because they resell return merch).

These locking factors of the way American retail businesses are set up (intentionally) become barriers to entry by smaller players. Market entrants must be willing to lose money - real money, not accounting money - while they ‘develop’ the market. In that study RIcoh commissioned from Mizuho Bank, although the bulk of the $1.4BBN investment to compete with CaNiSony was to build plants to make gear in volume, quite a large portion was ongoing SG&A expense, marketing expense, initial production mployee training expense, initial inventory stocking expense (you have to pay to make all the stuff you ship to Dealers on credit in the initial stocking) and distribution infrastructure.

You’d never get that money back. You’d make cash flow on the investment, but the investment is embedded. Essentially Ricoh would have invested right at the top of the market. Their bankers did a very good job to recommend against.

**monochrome** · 11-01-2018, 06:20 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Docrwm

Methinks I have heard you say all that before. My, go away for a couple of years and the stories and questions don't change all that much do they

I considered Ignoring this thread for that very reason. I thought, “Twice a year an earnest new member comes aboard and laments the lack of support for the brand, and the explanation has to be made again”.

FWIW this story has been pretty dormant while you were away. I was surprised Normhead remembered. I’m really surprised two people did.

11-01-2018, 05:51 PM - 3 Likes	#44
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by MarkJerling Now that's really interesting! I did not know that. Suddenly, it all makes sense why you never see Pentax in the shops. According to a retired Canon Rep acquaintance who worked for Honeywell and Asahi before switching, Asahi started gradually raising Dealer minimums and restricting Dealer Credit in the mid 70’s, when Canon and Nikon we’re making the big push, Oly and Minolta were very competitive second-tier companies. They were investing SMC royalties in the higher margin businesses Hoya stripped and gradually starving Imaging themselves!! This state of affairs is of their own making. In all fairness, Dealers expect the manufacturer to support the product with marketing and infrastructure to help them turn the inventory. Pentax doesn’t really do support either,so Dealers don’t want to risk their own money stocking Pentax, much less be on the hook for unsold inventory and a 90 day note coming due. My local Dealer where I bought My K-1 and 28-105 has finally given up. I have to use New York Internet now. (I won’t do Amazon because they resell return merch). These locking factors of the way American retail businesses are set up (intentionally) become barriers to entry by smaller players. Market entrants must be willing to lose money - real money, not accounting money - while they ‘develop’ the market. In that study RIcoh commissioned from Mizuho Bank, although the bulk of the $1.4BBN investment to compete with CaNiSony was to build plants to make gear in volume, quite a large portion was ongoing SG&A expense, marketing expense, initial production mployee training expense, initial inventory stocking expense (you have to pay to make all the stuff you ship to Dealers on credit in the initial stocking) and distribution infrastructure. You’d never get that money back. You’d make cash flow on the investment, but the investment is embedded. Essentially Ricoh would have invested right at the top of the market. Their bankers did a very good job to recommend against. Last edited by monochrome; 11-01-2018 at 06:12 PM.

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10-31-2018, 08:06 PM - 1 Like	#31
AsahiGlass Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Florida WPB Posts: 54 Original Poster	Resurrect Steve Jobs and ask for his advise...

10-31-2018, 08:34 PM - 1 Like	#32
THoog Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: North Carolina Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,685	Originally posted by AsahiGlass If you own a Nissan you essentially drive a Renault/ Peugeot/Citroen because they own Nissan...BTW Renault owns a 44% stake in Nissan, but Nissan owns a 15% stake in Renault. They are still separate companies, and while Nissan sells a couple rebadged Renault models in some markets, it's not in the US. Neither owns any part of PSA Peugeot Citroen, so far as I can tell. Anyhow, this still supports my point - it was years after withdrawing from the US market that a renewed Renault was able to partner with a struggling Nissan. Having little to no presence in the US does not always equal stagnation, or death, especially with the US market rapidly contracting. Being saddled with a vast infrastructure designed around a consumer base that has changed their tastes could also be fatal, whether your company is Sears, or Nikon.

10-31-2018, 08:35 PM - 2 Likes	#33
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by AsahiGlass I agree that the market for digital cameras is falling. But they gotta do something. Being stagnant and not proactive =Death. Sears catalog was what Amazon is today, samething with JC Penney, but Walmart pulled it off because they embraced change. If you own a Nissan you essentially drive a Renault/ Peugeot/Citroen because they own Nissan...BTW Sigh. They’re not stagnant, and they don’t ‘gotta’ do anything. They’re just not doing what you want and what you think they should. Unless you think they’re a bunch of benighted old men who don’t know what they’re doing (they’re not - they’re bright, energetic, young and motivated). Read the Special Sites. They’re doing what they believe will allow the company to survive this retrenchment, then thrive in a fashion different from other companies using the traditional high volume, low margin business model (what you think they should be doing and everyone else is doing). They seem to have chosen a low-volume, high margin model, investing and reinvesting cash flow in distinctive technologies and features, superb optics, deliberately building on their reputation in the one market where they’re competitive - Japan - and taking incremental revenue from more competitive, more expensive consumer markets. In the US they can’t generate enough cash flow now to support the market. EU is similar. My educated guess is they’re using this quiet time, which feels frustrating, to develop cameras worthy of the D FA* lenses, else why develop them? And they’ll do it at a lower price, for features, than the big brands. I’ll buy that value all day long, and they don’t have to spend marketing money explaining to me why I should.

10-31-2018, 08:54 PM	#34
AsahiGlass Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Florida WPB Posts: 54 Original Poster	Originally posted by THoog Renault owns a 44% stake in Nissan, but Nissan owns a 15% stake in Renault. They are still separate companies, and while Nissan sells a couple rebadged Renault models in some markets, it's not in the US. Neither owns any part of PSA Peugeot Citroen, so far as I can tell. Anyhow, this still supports my point - it was years after withdrawing from the US market that a renewed Renault was able to partner with a struggling Nissan. Having little to no presence in the US does not always equal stagnation, or death, especially with the US market rapidly contracting. Being saddled with a vast infrastructure designed around a consumer base that has changed their tastes could also be fatal, whether your company is Sears, or Nikon. Yeah and Chrysler bought Fiat, And VW is owned by Lamborghini... :lol We just have to wait and see I guess.

10-31-2018, 09:00 PM - 1 Like	#35
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by AsahiGlass Resurrect Steve Jobs and ask for his advise... IT was a booming market, AsahiGlass, right from the 80s. Digital cameras isn't - it peaked back in 2012, and phones have become pretty good for ad hoc pictures! The industries are very different, and what the Google board does has no lessons for the board of, say, Leica.

11-01-2018, 02:31 AM - 1 Like	#36
PJ1 Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Toowoomba, Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,484	Originally posted by clackers what the Google board does has no lessons for the board of, say, Leica. Now there's a point. If you are ever in the Queen Victoria Building in Sydney, on the top floor (where it gets more ritzy as you go up) there is a very large store front with a few artiistically placed items displayed in the windows. Inside there are scattered items of merchandise, again very artistic displays, with lots of open space for potential buyers to stand and contemplate the products. There are no crowds to push through. No price tags either that I could see. It is very plush. Not for plebeians like me. The name "Leica" is emblazoned above the door. On the other hand you could go to Castle Towers Shopping Centre in Castle Hill where there is a Sony site in the middle of the walk through areas. Lots of stock, all with prices and marked down stickers. Staff to corral you the moment you glance at something. I guess they both know what they are doing and why.

11-01-2018, 06:00 AM - 2 Likes	#37
AsahiGlass Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Florida WPB Posts: 54 Original Poster	Ok...you guys are missing the point. Leica has these stupid stores call "Leica boutique" , they are in Berlin, Paris and Moscow...oh and West Palm Beach But they wont carry Pentax. I'm gonna ask "The ProShop" why and I will post their answer. Oh and at the Leica Boutique ya get hassled if they smell money.

11-01-2018, 12:09 PM - 2 Likes	#38
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by AsahiGlass Oh and at the Leica Boutique ya get hassled if they smell money. (Laughs)

11-01-2018, 03:49 PM - 1 Like	#39
PJ1 Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Toowoomba, Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,484	Originally posted by AsahiGlass Oh and at the Leica Boutique ya get hassled if they smell money. I should have gone in for a look. They wouldn't hassle me!

11-01-2018, 04:02 PM - 1 Like	#40
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by PJ1 I should have gone in for a look. They wouldn't hassle me! You rocking a bit of a 'I clean windscreens at intersections' look when you go out, PJ? :P

11-01-2018, 05:18 PM - 3 Likes	#41
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by AsahiGlass Ok...you guys are missing the point. Leica has these stupid stores call "Leica boutique" , they are in Berlin, Paris and Moscow...oh and West Palm Beach But they wont carry Pentax. I'm gonna ask "The ProShop" why and I will post their answer. Oh and at the Leica Boutique ya get hassled if they smell money. Dealers won’t carry Pentax because RIcoh (and before that Hoya and before that Pentax and before that Asahi) doesn’t offer Dealer Credit. IOW, Dealers would actually have to buy Pentax inventory with real money, rather than accepting shipped inventory and a promissory note agreeing to pay for it in 90 or 180 days. Gee, I wonder why B&M Dealers are so obsessed with inventory turn? They’re essentially running their businesses on Cash Flow with someone else’s money. High volume / low margin levered businesses are really great, right up until the next recession. Did you know Nikon was the largest creditor of Ritz Camera when they went under - $69,000,000! They were awarded Debtor in Possession status during the liquidation phase, and lost buckets of money. So did Canon. Pentax didn’t lose a dime. I rest.

11-01-2018, 05:29 PM	#42
MarkJerling Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: May 2012 Location: Wairarapa, New Zealand Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 20,406	Originally posted by monochrome Dealers won’t carry Pentax because RIcoh (and before that Hoya and before that Pentax and before that Asahi) doesn’t offer Dealer Credit. IOW, Dealers would actually have to buy Pentax inventory with real money, rather than accepting shipped inventory and a promissory note agreeing to pay for it in 90 or 180 days. Gee, I wonder why B&M Dealers are so obsessed with inventory turn? They’re essentially running their businesses on Cash Flow with someone else’s money. High volume / low margin levered businesses are really great, right up until the next recession. Did you know Nikon was the largest creditor of Ritz Camera when they went under - $69,000,000! They were awarded Debtor in Possession status during the liquidation phase, and lost buckets of money. So did Canon. Pentax didn’t lose a dime. I rest. Now that's really interesting! I did not know that. Suddenly, it all makes sense why you never see Pentax in the shops.

11-01-2018, 05:42 PM	#43
Docrwm Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Somewhere in the Southern US Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,285	Originally posted by monochrome Dealers won’t carry Pentax because RIcoh (and before that Hoya and before that Pentax and before that Asahi) doesn’t offer Dealer Credit. IOW, Dealers would actually have to buy Pentax inventory with real money, rather than accepting shipped inventory and a promissory note agreeing to pay for it in 90 or 180 days. Gee, I wonder why B&M Dealers are so obsessed with inventory turn? They’re essentially running their businesses on Cash Flow with someone else’s money. High volume / low margin levered businesses are really great, right up until the next recession. Did you know Nikon was the largest creditor of Ritz Camera when they went under - $69,000,000! They were awarded Debtor in Possession status during the liquidation phase, and lost buckets of money. So did Canon. Pentax didn’t lose a dime. I rest. Methinks I have heard you say all that before. My, go away for a couple of years and the stories and questions don't change all that much do they

11-01-2018, 06:20 PM - 1 Like	#45
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by Docrwm Methinks I have heard you say all that before. My, go away for a couple of years and the stories and questions don't change all that much do they I considered Ignoring this thread for that very reason. I thought, “Twice a year an earnest new member comes aboard and laments the lack of support for the brand, and the explanation has to be made again”. FWIW this story has been pretty dormant while you were away. I was surprised Normhead remembered. I’m really surprised two people did.