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10-31-2018, 08:06 PM - 1 Like   #31
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Resurrect Steve Jobs and ask for his advise...

10-31-2018, 08:34 PM - 1 Like   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by AsahiGlass Quote
If you own a Nissan you essentially drive a Renault/ Peugeot/Citroen because they own Nissan...BTW
Renault owns a 44% stake in Nissan, but Nissan owns a 15% stake in Renault. They are still separate companies, and while Nissan sells a couple rebadged Renault models in some markets, it's not in the US. Neither owns any part of PSA Peugeot Citroen, so far as I can tell.

Anyhow, this still supports my point - it was years after withdrawing from the US market that a renewed Renault was able to partner with a struggling Nissan. Having little to no presence in the US does not always equal stagnation, or death, especially with the US market rapidly contracting. Being saddled with a vast infrastructure designed around a consumer base that has changed their tastes could also be fatal, whether your company is Sears, or Nikon.
10-31-2018, 08:35 PM - 2 Likes   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by AsahiGlass Quote
I agree that the market for digital cameras is falling. But they gotta do something. Being stagnant and not proactive =Death.

Sears catalog was what Amazon is today, samething with JC Penney, but Walmart pulled it off because they embraced change.

If you own a Nissan you essentially drive a Renault/ Peugeot/Citroen because they own Nissan...BTW
Sigh.

They’re not stagnant, and they don’t ‘gotta’ do anything. They’re just not doing what you want and what you think they should. Unless you think they’re a bunch of benighted old men who don’t know what they’re doing (they’re not - they’re bright, energetic, young and motivated). Read the Special Sites.

They’re doing what they believe will allow the company to survive this retrenchment, then thrive in a fashion different from other companies using the traditional high volume, low margin business model (what you think they should be doing and everyone else is doing). They seem to have chosen a low-volume, high margin model, investing and reinvesting cash flow in distinctive technologies and features, superb optics, deliberately building on their reputation in the one market where they’re competitive - Japan - and taking incremental revenue from more competitive, more expensive consumer markets. In the US they can’t generate enough cash flow now to support the market. EU is similar.

My educated guess is they’re using this quiet time, which feels frustrating, to develop cameras worthy of the D FA* lenses, else why develop them? And they’ll do it at a lower price, for features, than the big brands. I’ll buy that value all day long, and they don’t have to spend marketing money explaining to me why I should.
10-31-2018, 08:54 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by THoog Quote
Renault owns a 44% stake in Nissan, but Nissan owns a 15% stake in Renault. They are still separate companies, and while Nissan sells a couple rebadged Renault models in some markets, it's not in the US. Neither owns any part of PSA Peugeot Citroen, so far as I can tell.

Anyhow, this still supports my point - it was years after withdrawing from the US market that a renewed Renault was able to partner with a struggling Nissan. Having little to no presence in the US does not always equal stagnation, or death, especially with the US market rapidly contracting. Being saddled with a vast infrastructure designed around a consumer base that has changed their tastes could also be fatal, whether your company is Sears, or Nikon.
Yeah and Chrysler bought Fiat, And VW is owned by Lamborghini... :lol

We just have to wait and see I guess.

10-31-2018, 09:00 PM - 1 Like   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by AsahiGlass Quote
Resurrect Steve Jobs and ask for his advise...
IT was a booming market, AsahiGlass, right from the 80s.

Digital cameras isn't - it peaked back in 2012, and phones have become pretty good for ad hoc pictures!

The industries are very different, and what the Google board does has no lessons for the board of, say, Leica.
11-01-2018, 02:31 AM - 1 Like   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
what the Google board does has no lessons for the board of, say, Leica.


Now there's a point. If you are ever in the Queen Victoria Building in Sydney, on the top floor (where it gets more ritzy as you go up) there is a very large store front with a few artiistically placed items displayed in the windows. Inside there are scattered items of merchandise, again very artistic displays, with lots of open space for potential buyers to stand and contemplate the products. There are no crowds to push through. No price tags either that I could see. It is very plush. Not for plebeians like me. The name "Leica" is emblazoned above the door.


On the other hand you could go to Castle Towers Shopping Centre in Castle Hill where there is a Sony site in the middle of the walk through areas. Lots of stock, all with prices and marked down stickers. Staff to corral you the moment you glance at something.


I guess they both know what they are doing and why.
11-01-2018, 06:00 AM - 2 Likes   #37
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Ok...you guys are missing the point. Leica has these stupid stores call "Leica boutique" , they are in Berlin, Paris and Moscow...oh and West Palm Beach

But they wont carry Pentax. I'm gonna ask "The ProShop" why and I will post their answer.

Oh and at the Leica Boutique ya get hassled if they smell money.
11-01-2018, 12:09 PM - 2 Likes   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by AsahiGlass Quote

Oh and at the Leica Boutique ya get hassled if they smell money.
(Laughs)





11-01-2018, 03:49 PM - 1 Like   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by AsahiGlass Quote
Oh and at the Leica Boutique ya get hassled if they smell money.

I should have gone in for a look. They wouldn't hassle me!
11-01-2018, 04:02 PM - 1 Like   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by PJ1 Quote
I should have gone in for a look. They wouldn't hassle me!
You rocking a bit of a 'I clean windscreens at intersections' look when you go out, PJ? :P
11-01-2018, 05:18 PM - 3 Likes   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by AsahiGlass Quote
Ok...you guys are missing the point. Leica has these stupid stores call "Leica boutique" , they are in Berlin, Paris and Moscow...oh and West Palm Beach

But they wont carry Pentax. I'm gonna ask "The ProShop" why and I will post their answer.

Oh and at the Leica Boutique ya get hassled if they smell money.
Dealers won’t carry Pentax because RIcoh (and before that Hoya and before that Pentax and before that Asahi) doesn’t offer Dealer Credit. IOW, Dealers would actually have to buy Pentax inventory with real money, rather than accepting shipped inventory and a promissory note agreeing to pay for it in 90 or 180 days.

Gee, I wonder why B&M Dealers are so obsessed with inventory turn? They’re essentially running their businesses on Cash Flow with someone else’s money. High volume / low margin levered businesses are really great, right up until the next recession. Did you know Nikon was the largest creditor of Ritz Camera when they went under - $69,000,000! They were awarded Debtor in Possession status during the liquidation phase, and lost buckets of money. So did Canon.

Pentax didn’t lose a dime. I rest.
11-01-2018, 05:29 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Dealers won’t carry Pentax because RIcoh (and before that Hoya and before that Pentax and before that Asahi) doesn’t offer Dealer Credit. IOW, Dealers would actually have to buy Pentax inventory with real money, rather than accepting shipped inventory and a promissory note agreeing to pay for it in 90 or 180 days.

Gee, I wonder why B&M Dealers are so obsessed with inventory turn? They’re essentially running their businesses on Cash Flow with someone else’s money. High volume / low margin levered businesses are really great, right up until the next recession. Did you know Nikon was the largest creditor of Ritz Camera when they went under - $69,000,000! They were awarded Debtor in Possession status during the liquidation phase, and lost buckets of money. So did Canon.

Pentax didn’t lose a dime. I rest.
Now that's really interesting! I did not know that. Suddenly, it all makes sense why you never see Pentax in the shops.
11-01-2018, 05:42 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Dealers won’t carry Pentax because RIcoh (and before that Hoya and before that Pentax and before that Asahi) doesn’t offer Dealer Credit. IOW, Dealers would actually have to buy Pentax inventory with real money, rather than accepting shipped inventory and a promissory note agreeing to pay for it in 90 or 180 days.

Gee, I wonder why B&M Dealers are so obsessed with inventory turn? They’re essentially running their businesses on Cash Flow with someone else’s money. High volume / low margin levered businesses are really great, right up until the next recession. Did you know Nikon was the largest creditor of Ritz Camera when they went under - $69,000,000! They were awarded Debtor in Possession status during the liquidation phase, and lost buckets of money. So did Canon.

Pentax didn’t lose a dime. I rest.
Methinks I have heard you say all that before. My, go away for a couple of years and the stories and questions don't change all that much do they
11-01-2018, 05:51 PM - 3 Likes   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
Now that's really interesting! I did not know that. Suddenly, it all makes sense why you never see Pentax in the shops.
According to a retired Canon Rep acquaintance who worked for Honeywell and Asahi before switching, Asahi started gradually raising Dealer minimums and restricting Dealer Credit in the mid 70’s, when Canon and Nikon we’re making the big push, Oly and Minolta were very competitive second-tier companies. They were investing SMC royalties in the higher margin businesses Hoya stripped and gradually starving Imaging themselves!! This state of affairs is of their own making.

In all fairness, Dealers expect the manufacturer to support the product with marketing and infrastructure to help them turn the inventory. Pentax doesn’t really do support either,so Dealers don’t want to risk their own money stocking Pentax, much less be on the hook for unsold inventory and a 90 day note coming due. My local Dealer where I bought My K-1 and 28-105 has finally given up. I have to use New York Internet now. (I won’t do Amazon because they resell return merch).

These locking factors of the way American retail businesses are set up (intentionally) become barriers to entry by smaller players. Market entrants must be willing to lose money - real money, not accounting money - while they ‘develop’ the market. In that study RIcoh commissioned from Mizuho Bank, although the bulk of the $1.4BBN investment to compete with CaNiSony was to build plants to make gear in volume, quite a large portion was ongoing SG&A expense, marketing expense, initial production mployee training expense, initial inventory stocking expense (you have to pay to make all the stuff you ship to Dealers on credit in the initial stocking) and distribution infrastructure.

You’d never get that money back. You’d make cash flow on the investment, but the investment is embedded. Essentially Ricoh would have invested right at the top of the market. Their bankers did a very good job to recommend against.

Last edited by monochrome; 11-01-2018 at 06:12 PM.
11-01-2018, 06:20 PM - 1 Like   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
Methinks I have heard you say all that before. My, go away for a couple of years and the stories and questions don't change all that much do they
I considered Ignoring this thread for that very reason. I thought, “Twice a year an earnest new member comes aboard and laments the lack of support for the brand, and the explanation has to be made again”.

FWIW this story has been pretty dormant while you were away. I was surprised Normhead remembered. I’m really surprised two people did.
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