Oh, several forms of English are. There's no accounting for willful ignorance, though.

As for paranoia about RFID chips and the like, Rupert's right on this one: while everyone's being afraid of government, the corporations send you ads based on what you type in your emails. And yeah, discount cards track your purchasing habits, etc.

Which is exactly why I don't have a discount card in my name. I use them but the address and name are most assuredly not my own. There's one store left that still has the card. And I have my doubts about how long they'll be around. Do most of my shopping at Publix. Where Shopping Is a Pleasure. Pay cash.

[falconeye]

The German site is interesting. When I read the goals of the Pirate Party, I find an undercurrent that has a lot in common with the Tea Party people here who are taking to the street. Now, the Tea Party has steered or been steered to the right, but many of the underlying fears and uncertainties about government control and the emphasis on the Constitution are similar.

I've now read a bit about the US Tea Party. I would summarize the Tea Party's position with "less government" which is a "right" position in the US.

I no way can the goals of the Pirate Party be summarized in this way. They want a better society which includes a more transparent and more competent goverment with more respect for the individual and more control for the people (which becomes possible in the internet age). This isn't necessarily less government. Beyond, the Pirate Party is deliberately confining the topics they are addressing at all. Otherwise, they would sure embrace an even better health care system and a tightly controlled finance system. They already propose a better and more accessible educational system.

E.g., the French revolution was about a people-controlled government, not a lesser one. That's one of the reasons why "Liberal" sounds different in Europe than it does in the US. "Liberal" in Europe sounds like "Free" and "Forward-Thinking" and this sounds like anti conservative which sounds like "Bound" and "Backward-Thinking".

Liberal Americans may live in a tradition where their ancestors left Europe and its restrictive governments. So, the lesser a goverment the better. But things have evolved since ...

So, not lesser but better should be the goal. Which may or may not mean to spend more money. That's an entirely different question ...

Falk, it is my understanding that in Great Brittan Conservative and Liberal are the opposite political philosophy of what they are here. i.e. I would be a Liberal in England. (Geez it hurt to type that!) Is that the case throughout Europe? I admit to being at a disadvantage here as most Europeans and Canadians seem to know more about U.S. politics than I know about theirs.

What GingeM said.

Additionally, Liberals in Germany are again a different species (FDP). Since yesterday, Liberals in UK (and Germany) are in coalition with the conservatives. But this seems to change every ten years ...

the corporations send you ads based on what you type in your emails.

You must be joking!

Or are you using Google/Yahoo mail?
Then, please leave this discussion. It's not for you

[Ratmagiclady]

You must be joking!

Or are you using Google/Yahoo mail?
Then, please leave this discussion. It's not for you

That's kind of the point, ...in the name of 'small government' they elect people who let corporations snoop on everything you do, in the name of 'profit,' (Then of course support measures where the records can be seized without a warrant.) Doesn't make any sense, really.

Like somehow people whose only goals are to make money, and use government to make money, are somehow more trustworthy than our own elected government.

[GeneV]

I've now read a bit about the US Tea Party. I would summarize the Tea Party's position with "less government" which is a "right" position in the US.

I no way can the goals of the Pirate Party be summarized in this way. They want a better society which includes a more transparent and more competent goverment with more respect for the individual and more control for the people (which becomes possible in the internet age). This isn't necessarily less government. Beyond, the Pirate Party is deliberately confining the topics they are addressing at all. Otherwise, they would sure embrace an even better health care system and a tightly controlled finance system. They already propose a better and more accessible educational system.

E.g., the French revolution was about a people-controlled government, not a lesser one. That's one of the reasons why "Liberal" sounds different in Europe than it does in the US. "Liberal" in Europe sounds like "Free" and "Forward-Thinking" and this sounds like anti conservative which sounds like "Bound" and "Backward-Thinking".

Liberal Americans may live in a tradition where their ancestors left Europe and its restrictive governments. So, the lesser a goverment the better. But things have evolved since ...

So, not lesser but better should be the goal. Which may or may not mean to spend more money. That's an entirely different question ...

You may have misunderstood what I was saying, or I may not have expressed it clearly enough. I do not mean the two movements are the same at this point, but just that they both are growing out of some similar frustrations.

The undercurrent I see in both the Tea Party movement and the Pirate Party is a frustration with government seen as exceeding the constitution, overreaching, corrupt and not responsive to the people, and an activated a segment of the population which is fed up with the major political parties. The Tea Party moved right (in U.S. terms) and deals with that frustration by talking about getting rid of government, while the Pirate Party would would probably be, in American terms, to the left.

The earliest Tea Party rallies were less clearly right wing, with Republicans and Democrats both being booed when they attempted to speak at these protests, but the movement is definitely to the right now.

---

Last edited by GeneV; 05-12-2010 at 01:59 PM.

[Ratmagiclady]

The earliest Tea Party rallies were less clearly right wing, with Republicans and Democrats both being booed when they attempted to speak at these protests, but the movement is definitely to the right now.

There also appear to be some real divisions, between what some of the 'Tea Party' people are about, and the general teagaggery of Faux News, Palin, false populism, ...and the extreme Right trying to claim credit for both. 'Tea Party Express' means... Faux News pundits put it on, pretty much.

Orwellian stuff.

People maybe have a right to be angry, but it's being directed anywhere but where it belongs, and anywhere but a productive place.

The 'conservatives' do feel angry and powerless, but they think that taking it out on others, (even in the guise of 'tax reform' when they really are talking about 'Defund anything not helping our ideology,' know it or not. )

They didn't have a word to say about Bush's spending of our national wealth, still are outraged if some kid gets food stamps.

[falconeye]

You may have misunderstood what I was saying, or I may not have expressed it clearly enough. I do not mean the two movements are the same at this point, but just that they both are growing out of some similar frustrations.

That may be true indeed.

I see a certain effort by the European Pirate Party not to be either "left" or "right". Which is why they don't address certain subjects.

If opinion space is considered multi-dimensional (in a mathematical sense), then it should make sense to say that they try to be "orthogonal" to traditional political parties.

As a matter of fact, they appeal to internet-affine people. And you will find all political opinions among them. Still, most users of pentaxforums would probably agree with their program.

[GeneV]

That may be true indeed.

I see a certain effort by the European Pirate Party not to be either "left" or "right". Which is why they don't address certain subjects.

If opinion space is considered multi-dimensional (in a mathematical sense), then it should make sense to say that they try to be "orthogonal" to traditional political parties.

That is a good way to put it.

I am not a fan of the Tea Party movement at all, but I do think that in the beginning, it might have had the possibility of "orthogonality." I hope the Pirates can stay that way.

---------- Post added 05-12-2010 at 03:09 PM ----------

There also appear to be some real divisions, between what some of the 'Tea Party' people are about, and the general teagaggery of Faux News, Palin, false populism, ...and the extreme Right trying to claim credit for both. 'Tea Party Express' means... Faux News pundits put it on, pretty much.

Orwellian stuff.

People maybe have a right to be angry, but it's being directed anywhere but where it belongs, and anywhere but a productive place.

The 'conservatives' do feel angry and powerless, but they think that taking it out on others, (even in the guise of 'tax reform' when they really are talking about 'Defund anything not helping our ideology,' know it or not. )

They didn't have a word to say about Bush's spending of our national wealth, still are outraged if some kid gets food stamps.

It was originally motivated by anger at the handouts to banks and corporations. As it evolved to being anti-healthcare and just anti-Obama, it moved clearly rightward.

---

Last edited by GeneV; 05-12-2010 at 02:13 PM.

[Parallax]

.............. it moved clearly rightward.

I'm not sure that is completely valid, Gene. I think these asshats are establishing a completely new dimension/position for political ideology. It isn't just left v. right anymore.

[PDL]

Not always.

And if you are really concerned, you can still put them into a Faraday metallized protective plastic sleeve. Maybe, I should immediately start to produce such sleeves and file for US patent?

Stewart/Stand | Design Store

RFID free wallets.

The Elitist formerly known as PDL

[GeneV]

I'm not sure that is completely valid, Gene. I think these asshats are establishing a completely new dimension/position for political ideology. It isn't just left v. right anymore.

As Falk says, Orthogonal?

I still think that was more true earlier when they booed conservative politicians off the stage than now, when those politicians are invited speakers.

[falconeye]

I still think that was more true earlier

Did they run online petitions against privacy-endangering laws? Or do they now?

One of the identifying properties of European Pirate Party is their active usage of the web to actually organize and discuss. Using Wiki, forum, chat etc. Even targeting a new software framework.

You could simply call it Party 2.0


Going to teapartypatriots.org I see nothing but propaganda. Was it really different at an early stage?


BTW, the US Pirate Party is really nascent. 0 or 1 forum post in almost all States. But they already have a Vote and Forum entry and no "Patriot Feed"

Dear friends. If you ever considered to enter politics in the US, this may be a big chance. This thing may grow big and you can be among the first ten to join. Well, you even could become President (theoretically). Gene, you can found the New Mexico State Pirate Party right now. Their Wiki tells you how to do it

[GingeM]

Falconeye:

While I understand and respect your views on change in government I'm afraid it will almost certainly not work in the USA for another 20 years or more at best. Europe has been playing "fragmented politics" for decades. The USA is still solidly set in the two party system. It is extremely doubtful that the USA will allow the current administration to live much past November and almost certainly not past 2012. The Tea Party phenomenon that the left like to demonize is not really as they characterize. It's the sleeping giant they have managed to tiptoe around for so long.

Both systems are sick of the status quo but in the USA the swing will be clear and to the right. In Europe the movement will only serve to confuse an already complicated political landscape.

The liberals here will bleat and whine about what I have said here but I'll be happy to revisit it in November when their nightmare begins...

[GeneV]

Did they run online petitions against privacy-endangering laws? Or do they now?

One of the identifying properties of European Pirate Party is their active usage of the web to actually organize and discuss. Using Wiki, forum, chat etc. Even targeting a new software framework.

You could simply call it Party 2.0


Going to teapartypatriots.org I see nothing but propaganda. Was it really different at an early stage?


BTW, the US Pirate Party is really nascent. 0 or 1 forum post in almost all States. But they already have a Vote and Forum entry and no "Patriot Feed"

Dear friends. If you ever considered to enter politics in the US, this may be a big chance. This thing may grow big and you can be among the first ten to join. Well, you even could become President (theoretically). Gene, you can found the New Mexico State Pirate Party right now. Their Wiki tells you how to do it

I totally agree about the Tea Party. At this point it appears to be nothing but propaganda with a healthy dose of hate.

I'm not sure where this Pirate Party in the U.S. is going, but I'll check into it. Although we sorely need an alternative to our two parties, third parties here get very little respect. Our political system is designed to exclude and marginalize them. Frankly, like the Tea baggers, the name is not all that helpful for being taken seriously.

[falconeye]

Both systems are sick of the status quo but in the USA the swing will be clear and to the right. In Europe the movement will only serve to confuse an already complicated political landscape.

I prefer an optimistic point of view. Which doesn't mean I am right

The name is not all that helpful for being taken seriously

I agree. But they of course can change it.

[GingeM]

I prefer an optimistic point of view. Which doesn't mean I am right

We understand each other...