[Gooshin]

Awkward question on many levels:

I'm Jewish, but that doesn't make me Israeli.

I'm also short, which doesn't make me a dwarf.

I dont want to go on a severe tangent here, but Jewish, or Judaism, is a religion, not a nationality.

For all purposes you are are an Israelite, if you were born in Isreal. If you were born in Russia then you are Russian with a Jewish faith.

If you are born in Canada, or America, then you are either Canadian or American of Jewish faith.

repeat, Jewish is not a nationality...last time i looked at the globe i didnt see Jewland anywhere..

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Last edited by Gooshin; 06-04-2010 at 01:38 PM.

[mickeyobe]

"I dont want to go on a severe tangent here, but Jewish, or Judaism, is a religion, not a nationality."

Please give your definition of nationality.

Mickey

[Ratmagiclady]

Actually, Gooshin, strictly speaking Judaism is a *tribe,* declared to be a nation, which has an associated religion that technically it's forbidden for anyone but Hebrews to have anything to do with, which is kind of a crowning irony for all the trouble that's caused.


But actually, it's an ethnicity first and a culture and a religion goes with it, rather than the other way around. Everyone else in it is adopted.

Or, let's put it this way, no one hands out pamphlets that's make you Jewish, no matter how hard you wanted to be. It's more like marrying into being Irish or something, you would be. It's not 'just' a creed, let's say.

[mickeyobe]

I would like to respond to Ratmagiclady.

Actually, Gooshin, strictly speaking Judaism is a *tribe,* twelve tribes originally declared earned the right to be a nation, which has an associated religion that technically it's forbidden for anyone but Hebrews to have anything to do with, Jews do not proselytize but if one sincerely wants to convert to Judaism they are not barred but conversion is not made easy which is kind of a crowning irony for all the trouble that's caused. Is it the Jews that caused all the trouble by merely trying to exist or is it the non Jews that have consistently tried to eliminate them?
"declared to be a nation" The Jews had their own country that was founded at a specific time with specified borders, a capitol city, a system of government with specific leaders, a monetary system, a judiciary, indeed, all the trappings that go to make a country and a nation. That country existed for hundreds of years and was never, ever relinquished by its nationals, the members of the widespread Jewish nation.

But actually, it's an ethnicity first which has just been proven scientifically and a culture it is today comprised of numerous cultures from all over the world that blend into a relatively harmonious way of life and a religion in various forms goes with it, rather than the other way around. Everyone else in it is adopted.

Or, let's put it this way, no one hands out pamphlets that's make you Jewish, no matter how hard you wanted to be. It's more like marrying into being Irish or something, you would be. It's not 'just' a creed, let's say.

But why would anyone want to convert to Judaism and have to constantly fight for survival in an irrational, hate filled, murderous, hostile, lying world?

Mickey, Proudly and defiantly Jewish

[lithos]

But why would anyone want to convert to Judaism and have to constantly fight for survival in an irrational, hate filled, murderous, hostile, lying world?

'Cause you don't have to be Jewish to do that?

Yes, it's all a big conspiracy.

[creampuff]

The common characteristic between Jews and Chinese seems to be their penchant for business and getting involved with money. There is also the strong emphasis on education and a strong aspiration to work hard and better one's lot. But where I see the difference is wherever the Chinese diaspora is, there is a process of blending in into the local community while keeping some of the Chinese heritage distinctiveness.

[mickeyobe]

The common characteristic between Jews and Chinese seems to be their penchant for business and getting involved with money. There is also the strong emphasis on education and a strong aspiration to work hard and better one's lot. But where I see the difference is wherever the Chinese diaspora is, there is a process of blending in into the local community while keeping some of the Chinese heritage distinctiveness.

Creampuff,

I think there is one notable similarity that you missed.
Both cultures seem to be very strongly family oriented.

As for culturally blending you are correct because the Chinese have a very colourful and beautiful culture that they take pride in displaying.

Jewish culture is, of necessity, after millenia of persecution and hiding, much more subdued and celebrated privately usually in the home or synagogue, very rarely in public.

Mickey

[lithos]

The common characteristic between Jews and Chinese seems to be their penchant for business and getting involved with money. There is also the strong emphasis on education and a strong aspiration to work hard and better one's lot. But where I see the difference is wherever the Chinese diaspora is, there is a process of blending in into the local community while keeping some of the Chinese heritage distinctiveness.

That's a good comparison - in the social sense, it almost seems that in places like California, British Columbia and Australia, the Chinese held the same sort of social and psychic niche as the Jews. IE, they had their uses, but any dealings with them were to be done somewhat reluctantly, and were often sadly underestimated in their value.

In a lot of European places (including the colonies and former colonies like Canada and America,) though, Chinese look a helluva lot different to Europeans, which caused them to stand out more.

In Australia, they pissed off the locals by getting gold from mines abandoned by the European settlers (which led to the idea that the Chinese were stealing gold, because if they're only working mines abandoned by everyone else, where else could it come from?) They ran market gardens, which kept a lot of settlements afloat (Darwin, Broome, for example, which otherwise might've gone to the Dutch.) Parts of my family had a pearling company on Thursday Island.

For some reason only fathomable to a Chinese businessman's mind, my grandfather was running a brewery in the New Territories when the Japanese invaded. I would've loved to have seen how that came about, which is sort've metaphorical for the whole Chinese business philosophy. No "My father did X for a living, so did his father, and his father before that, so that's what I'm doing now." More like - "Beer? What's beer - look, never mind, here's 10,000 pounds, go make some beer and sell it - go! Now! Go find some Germans and set it up." Goong-goong: "Er. Ok." (The Germans ended up saving my grandfather. Wouldn't be here if they'd gotten Dutch or English brewers.)

Like the Jewish, everyone got really, really angry that they were doing so well, despite everyone else's better efforts, and had even become a necessary part of society. They ran shops (Hong Yuen's in Moree comes to mind,) stables, assaying offices, market gardens, pretty much anything. And pretty much every single town has a Chinese restaurant (I had a great uncle who nearly killed someone over the whole peas-in-the-fried-rice issue.) It was for the same reasons as the Jews (and, say, the Quakers in Britain,) they did these sort of things. Much of society was cut off for them - universities, politics, the military, etc. - so they did what they could. From what I could tell, having been around for 5000 years straight, the Chinese tended to take a very, very long view of things: "Sure, they hate us now, but in a thousand, two thousand years, I'm sure we'll sort things out."

And, as Creampuff said, there's the strong emphasis on education. My grandfather had an arts degree, back when they meant something and degrees were very, very rare. My grandmother actually won a scholarship to university, but her parents wouldn't let her go.

All of the family fortune was lost in the wars - WWII, and the final conflict between the Maoists and the Nationalists.

But, unfortunately, the very first law enacted by the very first Australian government was the ridiculous White Australia Policy, which was basically "We've got Britain at our backs, so why do we need non-whites?" Didn't work out too well. He went to join the Air Force in 1941, and was politely told they didn't have a need for Chinese - even one who spoke German. And Japanese. And Spanish. And had a university education. And who had lived and worked what was then behind enemy lines.

[mickeyobe]

The common characteristic between Jews and Chinese seems to be their penchant for business and getting involved with money. There is also the strong emphasis on education and a strong aspiration to work hard and better one's lot. That "common characteristic" developed out of necessity. All other means of making a living were forbidden. They were not allowed to own land so they entered the few fields that were permitted and by dint of hard work and dedication and frequently forbidden education they made successes in those areas that were scorned by the rest of the world.

But where I see the difference is wherever the Chinese diaspora is, there is a process of blending in into the local community while keeping some of the Chinese heritage distinctiveness.
I can see no difference at all in this process. I defy you to walk down the street in any major city and pick out the Jews, other than the relatively few ultra orthodox who prefer to remain isolated but impose on no one. We have retained our heritage but rarely display it openly.
I think the Chinese had a much tougher time of it because they were easily recognizable and thus more prone to the racism of the bully boys.

Mickey

[casil403]

But why would anyone want to convert to Judaism and have to constantly fight for survival in an irrational, hate filled, murderous, hostile, lying world?

On the other hand the way things are going lately in many parts of the "free"world, why would anyone want to take up photography and carry around a camera for the very same reasons?

[mickeyobe]

On the other hand the way things are going lately in many parts of the "free"world, why would anyone want to take up photography and carry around a camera for the very same reasons?

casil403,

What planet are you calling from?

Mickey

[Gooshin]

Please give your definition of nationality.

Mickey

my definition?

my definition is the same as the dictionary definition

the status of belonging to a particular nation, whether by birth or naturalization

let us define nation for reference, just in case you want me to define what a nation is

a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own

Well, there is no Jewtown or Jewland or Jewrico on the map... You have Israel though, so you are an Israelite!

also, i dont know which part of Toronto you live at, maybe Jane and Finch, but Jewish Pride is very much open and visible in the GTA.

[mickeyobe]

my definition?

my definition is the same as the dictionary definition

the status of belonging to a particular nation, whether by birth or naturalization

let us define nation for reference, just in case you want me to define what a nation is

a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own

Well, there is no Jewtown or Jewland or Jewrico on the map... You have Israel though, so you are an Israelite!

also, i dont know which part of Toronto you live at, maybe Jane and Finch, but Jewish Pride is very much open and visible in the GTA.

I think your definition is as good as any and better than most. And Israelite suits me fine but first and foremost I can say with modest pride I am a Canadian, eh.

I live in the Leslie/Steeles/Don Mills area which now has a large Chinese population. One could not ask for better neighbours.
I have lived here for almost 40 years and am very happy, indeed, to see how it has developed. I am fortunate.
Some other neighbourhoods have not fared so well including the one from which we moved in 1972 and which I wont name.

Mickey

[Parallax]

I would like to respond to Ratmagiclady.


But why would anyone want to convert to Judaism and have to constantly fight for survival in an irrational, hate filled, murderous, hostile, lying world?

Mickey, Proudly and defiantly Jewish

Mikey, I would like to take a stab at that one. I have not known many Jewish people in my life, nor do I know anywhere near as much about the faith as I would like, but this is my perception: The Jews, to me, seem generally more sincere in their beliefs, and appear to actually live their faith on a daily basis more than most Christians I know, including myself. Jewish people are far more tolerant of others than others are of them. I have to believe that too goes back to actually living your faith.
You said a few posts back: "Jewish culture is, of necessity, after millenia of persecution and hiding, much more subdued and celebrated privately usually in the home or synagogue, very rarely in public."
They aren't out publicly telling people of other beliefs that they are going to hell if they don't think the same way, nor are they actively trying to destroy other cultures. Again, living the faith.
To answer your question as to why anyone would want to convert; I'm sure their are Christians who have an enormous amount of respect and admiration for the Jews, and who see Judaism as a faith that involves a sense of belonging and spirituality that they don't get from their own. I can tell you with absolute certainty that there is at least one member of this board that falls into that category.

[lithos]

And the Chinese, Parallax?