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06-04-2010, 12:09 PM   #31
graphicgr8s
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
Bingo.


And the dispersants used to make the size of the oil slick look less for the TV satellite shots?


As bad as the spill itself for deep-level oxygen.

Which doesn't come back very fast.)




Well, you shouldn't listen to oil companies about what's *safe,* but the areas off the Mid-atlantic which were offered to be opened, actually were offered to be opened because the currents don't *run* the same way as the Gulf does.

But obviously, Big Oil's 'expert' safety assurances are worth ...well, nothing, now, right?

I'd say all bets are off.
What is safe in this world? Or any world? You show me something safe and it's too easy to prove it's not.

06-04-2010, 05:03 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by graphicgr8s Quote
What is safe in this world? Or any world? You show me something safe and it's too easy to prove it's not.
You're right, there is risk in everything. According to insurance statistics, our own homes are the most dangerous places we go.

Worldwide, we are consuming oil faster than we can pump it. Sometime in the near future, maybe 20 years or 50, depending on which study you read, the wells are going to stop flowing and you can count on it that any new potential source will be drilled. They will knock down the Statue of Liberty and replace it with an oil well if they think there will be something there. Any talk of putting an end to offshore drilling is nothing more than empty threats and the oil companys know it. Throw a few execs in jail and it will send a clear message. Do it right or we will put you away. Fines do nothing. These companys have budgets bigger than most nations. I saw one article today which suggested that now is a great time to buy BP stock because it's dirt cheap and is going to multiply many times after this has blown over. It's kind of sickening that some are going to get rich over this.
06-04-2010, 06:23 PM   #33
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Getting back on topic you all realize that this massive spill is of course the total fault of all those that protest shallow water drilling don't you?
06-04-2010, 06:35 PM   #34
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George, I love debating you when you are so stuck on a course of thought.

This didn't happen because of shallow water drilling bans. This happened because BP cut corners. No remote BOP system. Earlier comments about replacing drilling mud (expensive) with seawater (free). Not having working batteries on the BOP they did have. Yes that's a fact. The sea floor BOP had dead batteries and couldn't be activated.

Earlier I said that over 3 years, BP was cited for 760 safety incidents. Some of which came from the Texas refinery explosion. Another BP corner cutting operation. Guess what the next highest incedent report total was for the 2nd worst oil company? Don't know? It was 8 incidents over the same 3 year period. How about Exxon over the same period. 1 incident.

BP is head an shoulders the worst company for cutting corners.

06-04-2010, 06:37 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
George, I love debating you when you are so stuck on a course of thought.

This didn't happen because of shallow water drilling bans. This happened because BP cut corners. No remote BOP system. Earlier comments about replacing drilling mud (expensive) with seawater (free). Not having working batteries on the BOP they did have. Yes that's a fact. The sea floor BOP had dead batteries and couldn't be activated.

Earlier I said that over 3 years, BP was cited for 760 safety incidents. Some of which came from the Texas refinery explosion. Another BP corner cutting operation. Guess what the next highest incedent report total was for the 2nd worst oil company? Don't know? It was 8 incidents over the same 3 year period. How about Exxon over the same period. 1 incident.

BP is head an shoulders the worst company for cutting corners.
Peter they got safety award(s) before this happened. And yes, this is totally on those who oppose shallow water drilling.
06-04-2010, 06:59 PM   #36
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Yeah they probably awarded them to themselves. Maybe the 15 families of the dead workers in Texas* gave it to them after the refinery exploded.

Btw, here's the article that says they replaced drilling mud with sea water. Congress "suggests' this might have contributed to the accident. Having worked at this for 3 years, I can guarantee that it had a lot to do with it. Sea water can not in any way hold back 5000 Psi oil pressure. It wouldn't matter if this rig was in a foot of water or 5000 feet. If you operate the rig the wrong way, it's gonna blow. Plain and simple.

* you should read that Wiki article. See how lousy this company really is at safety. I have no idea why you are defending them in any way.
06-04-2010, 07:02 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
Yeah they probably awarded them to themselves. Maybe the 15 families of the dead workers in Texas* gave it to them after the refinery exploded.

Btw, here's the article that says they replaced drilling mud with sea water. Congress "suggests' this might have contributed to the accident. Having worked at this for 3 years, I can guarantee that it had a lot to do with it. Sea water can not in any way hold back 5000 Psi oil pressure. It wouldn't matter if this rig was in a foot of water or 5000 feet. If you operate the rig the wrong way, it's gonna blow. Plain and simple.

* you should read that Wiki article. See how lousy this company really is at safety. I have no idea why you are defending them in any way.
Actually I am not defending them. But it is the fault of those who oppose SWD. In fact it is totally their fault that this spill is so massive. It's not their fault that it blew however.
06-04-2010, 07:18 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by graphicgr8s Quote
Actually I am not defending them. But it is the fault of those who oppose SWD. In fact it is totally their fault that this spill is so massive. It's not their fault that it blew however.
Not having followed the subject much before this accident, how is it that the fault lies where you say? I'm curious. Seriously.

06-04-2010, 07:18 PM   #39
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Safety awards don't mean much. Safety always seems to take a back seat to the budget. Most corner cutting ideas are "proven" to be safe by someone whenever questions are raised.
06-04-2010, 07:28 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by mel Quote
Not having followed the subject much before this accident, how is it that the fault lies where you say? I'm curious. Seriously.
Why is it only you that asks the right question? (Rhetorical)

Robotics are great. They can do many, many things. And that's all they can use in this case. If this was shallow water drilling the same thing could happen. A blowout. A BOP can, and will fail. The difference occurs in the remediation of the problem. In a SWW you can get divers down there. Divers can do a heck of a lot more than robotics can. Funny thing is I was looking at some papers I have from my father from his service days. This is one of the things he was involved in. Not oil but other underwater pressure vessels.
06-04-2010, 08:04 PM   #41
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If it had been shallow one expert they had talked to said it more than likely would have been sealed in 2 days or less.

Last edited by Peter Zack; 06-05-2010 at 05:09 AM. Reason: Removed insulting quote
06-05-2010, 05:14 AM   #42
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That may be so George but I strongly doubt it. There was an accident in the Gulf back in the 1980's in less than 160 feet of water. Easily depths that divers can work. The spill went unchecked for 250+ days. They did bring in divers but the only solution was relief wells and after nearly 10 months of work, they finally had a relief well cap the hole.
I realize that equipment has improved since then but you don't go throwing people down in a pile of wreckage and 5000 + Psi situations. It's a recipe to get more people killed.

They couldn't use divers then and I would say that they couldn't have done it here either even if this was in 100 feet of water.

Last edited by Peter Zack; 06-05-2010 at 05:35 AM.
06-05-2010, 07:18 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
That may be so George but I strongly doubt it. There was an accident in the Gulf back in the 1980's in less than 160 feet of water. Easily depths that divers can work. The spill went unchecked for 250+ days. They did bring in divers but the only solution was relief wells and after nearly 10 months of work, they finally had a relief well cap the hole.
I realize that equipment has improved since then but you don't go throwing people down in a pile of wreckage and 5000 + Psi situations. It's a recipe to get more people killed.

They couldn't use divers then and I would say that they couldn't have done it here either even if this was in 100 feet of water.
It is amazingly similar... now for the fun part.
QuoteQuote:
Tone-deaf politicians, especially from Texas, are trying to manage public fears, which is exactly what the state's former governor attempted in 1979. Bill Clements, who was one of the founders of SEDCO and owned the Ixtoc platform, originally described concerns as "much ado about nothing." As oil moved toward the pristine beaches of the Padre Island National Seashore, his advice was to "pray for a hurricane." I confronted Clements on his lack of concern and he stuck his finger in my chest and told me the state was not hurt. Thirty years later the tar balls still roll in with shifts of tide and wind and oil was everywhere on the beach for years.
James Moore: Nobody Knows the Trouble We'll See
Who is Clements???

QuoteQuote:
read clip about wonderful Texas Republican
Texas Monthly - Google Books
QuoteQuote:
The Laredo Bridge was one of several border fiascoes involving Clements. When the Ixtoc oil rig he had leased to the Mexican government blew out in the Bay of Campeche and poured millions of gallons of crude oil into the gulf and fouled the beaches of both countries, Clements suggested that residents of the coast "pray for a hurricane," and that the protests of environmentalists in both countries was "much ado about nothing." He also once referred to prominent Mexican scholar Jorge Bustamante as "just another Mexican with an opinion."
Looking for Tony: Texas Democrats Believe a Laredo Oil & Gas Magnate Can Win the Governor's Race and Save the Party. So Who Is Tony Sanchez? Austin News - AustinChronicle.com
06-05-2010, 11:12 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by clmonk Quote
Not that it would make any difference to BP's bottom line, but I wonder how many Americans are choosing to purchase their petroleum products from othercompanies right now. There really doesn't seem to be anything the average Joe can do to indicate our displeasure. At least no way we can actually "vote with our wallets" as is usually suggested.
In my 'hood there are 3 gas stations, all BP. I now drive 6 miles (3 each way) out of my way to buy gas from someone else. In my book BP is "on punishment". Sure my $40/week isn't gonna hurt BP that much, but it at least makes me feel better.

NaCl(unfortunately, it's about all I can do)H2O

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 02:33 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
Simple wish, once all the bills are paid (which could take years), all I want is BP to go bankrupt. The company should be dissolved and anyone who made decisions to save money over safety should be thrown in jail. Maybe one year for each bird, turtle and dolphin that has died. 11 counts of murder would be a good start.

All this destruction could have easily been avoided had they properly installed a remote operated blow-out protector. But no they decided to save $500K.

Second wish. Obama gets booted from office. Sure I know he's only been there for 16 months. But where are the inspectors? They just continued the free pass the oil companies have had for far too long.

I worked offshore for 3 years in Canada and we were inspected regularly by government guys. We also had to have the remote BOP's installed. Why that isn't law in US waters is beyond me.
Unfortunately BP isn't likely to go bankrupt anytime soon. Even with MASSIVE fines. Their profits are about 5 Billion a quarter! That's not income, that's profits. I was listening to "Marketplace" (public funded radio probram about economic issues) and one of their guests, an economic professor from LSU said "Unfortunately there are no fines that can be levied against BP that would bankrupt them" (or words to that effect) They simply make too much money. But if we can throw a bunch of their biggies in jail maybe it will make the company (and hopefully others) sit up and take notice. I'd personally like to see Svanberg and Hayward and the rest of them thrown into a max security prison without any "special protection" for a year or so. Maybe they'd get "educated".

NaCl(hopefully they will get more than a slap on the wrist)H2O

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 02:50 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by graphicgr8s Quote
But legally they are only responsible for $75 million in cleanup.
Fortunately that hasn't been determined yet. Sen Schumer and others are looking into possibilities to raise that cap significantly. Hopefully it will happen.

NaCl(If they get fined 75 million I will think very seriously of moving about 200 miles north...I'd then be a neighbor of Peter Z)H2O

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 03:09 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
That may be so George but I strongly doubt it. There was an accident in the Gulf back in the 1980's in less than 160 feet of water. Easily depths that divers can work. The spill went unchecked for 250+ days. They did bring in divers but the only solution was relief wells and after nearly 10 months of work, they finally had a relief well cap the hole.
I realize that equipment has improved since then but you don't go throwing people down in a pile of wreckage and 5000 + Psi situations. It's a recipe to get more people killed.

They couldn't use divers then and I would say that they couldn't have done it here either even if this was in 100 feet of water.
Actually they did use divers in the Ixtoc I disaster. In fact one diver died. Another diver compared the sound of the blown out well under water to "1000 diesel locomotives". So I agree with you Peter, shallow water drilling isn't the answer. Divers couldn't cap that well even in "only" 50M (160ft) of water.

NaCl(I'd like to see BP paying the gulf states several billion a year each until the ecology and state economies have recovered)H2O

Last edited by NaClH2O; 06-05-2010 at 12:07 PM.
06-05-2010, 04:43 PM   #45
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Cooler heads will prevail. I boycotted Exxon way bacl. It did next to nada to Exxon. In 'some' fairness to Exxon it was the skippers accident, but Exxon was slow to deploy clean up and it seems some damages were sustained that were never resolved. Exxon recovered. Regarding the Gulf disaster, I am pissed #1 at the feds. Evidently the oil rig inspections were a semi joke. I understand from the press that the rig just rec'd a safety award. Beyond that for deep water wells WTH is there not triple safe well head shut offs or systems? This goes to gov't standards or lack of. Further from the media I heard there were safety operational concerns that BP (staff) ignored prior to the explosion. The Mines and Minerals head was quickly fired which indicates some level of undetermined incompetence on management. It's fun to watch BP take the heat and the gov't flakes deflect all secondary responibility. BP is going to deserve what they get but they will survive. I can only hope that the Gulf gets cleaned up eventually but that the public keeps the eye on the ball and not all the BS flying around on this. It will hurt the beaches, oysters and shrimp for sure but the oystermen and shrimp boats run on cheap diesel. Just a footnote, there are about 4000 or so wells in the gulf, the safety of all of them should be reexamined and the necessary steps taken to make them safe. I have my doubts about the folks that police Goldman Sachs, the SEC, the old S & L institutions and Fanny Mae/Mack can get the job correctly done with the graft that is SOP in Washington. Just my 2 cents.
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