[GeneV]

All of us are, in part, to blame for supporting/continuing the use of fossil fuels.

My feelings exactly. This has happened before (remember Pemex?) and it will happen again.

If you've read the news today, or the last several days, you've learned that it's quite obvious that BP took unlawful shortcuts that caused the disaster.

It wasn't American worker error. It was corporate BP criminal negligence.

Where were the government inspectors?

They also should be held personally responsible if not also financially.

[Douglas_of_Sweden]

All of us are, in part, to blame for supporting/continuing the use of fossil fuels.

My car runs on ethanol. My house is heated with water and wind power which also give me electricity. It cost a bit more, but not much. Actually, it is less expensive to run the car on ethanol than gasoline...I get more horsepowers as well Of course we recycle whatever we can.

These are in no way extreme choices here. It take very little effort from me. I just make one more choice when I make a contract with the power company, to get renewable power only, and ethanol I can get on almost every gas station.

Time to change! What choices can you do?

---------- Post added 06-17-2010 at 10:18 PM ----------

(I hope no one noticed that BP boss is Swedish ...actually, I think he must be Norwegian)

[subeeds]

Douglas, because of American politics and the big oil companies, our choices at this time are rather limited. I bet there is not an ethanol station within 100 miles of me and that would include a city with over a million people in it.

Those pictures break my heart. I'm a Native Floridian (east coast) and spent several summer vacations on the Gulf. To see it die like that is just too awful.

---

Last edited by subeeds; 06-17-2010 at 01:34 PM.

[BillM]

Have to agree with Subeeds, Douglas. In the state that I live in, up to
4 years ago, we had 4 automobile manufacturing facilities, because of
this, for someone to utilize any form of public transportation it was
impossible to go any distance other than a few, short kilometers.
We're starting to change, in little baby steps you might say.
We've lost 3 of 4 of the car plants in this depression.
Change is being made, yes, but not because of any enviromental
impetus, but that of economic neccessity.

[Ira]

Where were the government inspectors?

They also should be held personally responsible if not also financially.

Okay. A little lesson in the way the world works:

1) There aren't government inspectors on every oil rig because these rigs are all OVER the place out in the ocean.

2) The oil companies promise to follow certain procedures based on their drilling permits.

3) It's a proven fact that BP has lied to EVERYONE about the procedures and safeguards they were supposed to be implementing.

4) BP deserves to be bankrupt for this, for what they've done, and as a lesson to other oil companies--to use their assets to fix this environmental holocaust that they've created.

If someone murders his wife in her sleep, you can't blame the local police department for not being there to prevent it. And blaming "Obama," as you're implying, is just plain nuts.

2011:

A clean and healthy Gulf and east coast, and a bankrupt BP.

I can live with that, you know?

If you can't, you really have to reexamine your priorities.

Okay. A little lesson in the way the world works:

1) There aren't government inspectors on every oil rig because these rigs are all OVER the place out in the ocean.

2) The oil companies promise to follow certain procedures based on their drilling permits.

3) It's a proven fact that BP has lied to EVERYONE about the procedures and safeguards they were supposed to be implementing.

4) BP deserves to be bankrupt for this, for what they've done, and as a lesson to other oil companies--to use their assets to fix this environmental holocaust that they've created.

If someone murders his wife in her sleep, you can't blame the local police department for not being there to prevent it. And blaming "Obama," as you're implying, is just plain nuts.

2011:

A clean and healthy Gulf and east coast, and a bankrupt BP.

I can live with that, you know?

If you can't, you really have to reexamine your priorities.

Here's your lesson for the day.
1. There was/is a NOAA approved plan in place for just such an incident. Was it followed? NO

2. Many other countries have offered help from day 1. Countries that know a thing or two about oil spills. Obama, in written response turned them down. Why you ask? Good question. It's called the Jones act. Other presidents have waived it in other circumstances. Obama STILL hasn't done so. And that's why we don't have all available skimmers in the gulf.

3. BP goes under there will be no repayment for cleanup. Total assets of BP from my understanding is only $7 billion. It is more advantageous to have them around as a viable company. You can't get blood from a stone.

---------- Post added 06-17-2010 at 08:16 PM ----------

My car runs on ethanol. My house is heated with water and wind power which also give me electricity. It cost a bit more, but not much. Actually, it is less expensive to run the car on ethanol than gasoline...I get more horsepowers as well Of course we recycle whatever we can.

These are in no way extreme choices here. It take very little effort from me. I just make one more choice when I make a contract with the power company, to get renewable power only, and ethanol I can get on almost every gas station.

Time to change! What choices can you do?

---------- Post added 06-17-2010 at 10:18 PM ----------

(I hope no one noticed that BP boss is Swedish ...actually, I think he must be Norwegian)

You may want to look at this link concerning costs of ethanol.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cm/popularmechanics/pdf/Fuel_of_the_Future-e852.pdf

Where does your ethanol come from? The US's supply is corn. Highly dependent on fertilizer and highly ecologically unfriendly.

Gas available to me is only 90%fuel. It kills my idle speed motor. Some of my customers however love it. It's great for their business. Small engine repair. It kills them too. Seems it attracts moisture like a sponge.

---

Last edited by graphicgr8s; 06-17-2010 at 06:16 PM.

[Oldschool]

3. BP goes under there will be no repayment for cleanup. Total assets of BP from my understanding is only $7 billion. It is more advantageous to have them around as a viable company. You can't get blood from a stone.

BP has plenty of financial resources to pay for this. They made over $6 billion in the first quarter 2010 after taxes. They have a balance sheet with assets over $240 billion and equity of over $107 billion. In fact, the quarterly dividend that was recently suspended was over $10 billion. Don't cry for BP, they have deep pockets.

BP has plenty of financial resources to pay for this. They made over $6 billion in the first quarter 2010 after taxes. They have a balance sheet with assets over $240 billion and equity of over $107 billion. In fact, the quarterly dividend that was recently suspended was over $10 billion. Don't cry for BP, they have deep pockets.

They have deep pockets so long as they are a viable company.

[Douglas_of_Sweden]

You may want to look at this link concerning costs of ethanol.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cm/popularmechanics/pdf/Fuel_of_the_Future-e852.pdf

Where does your ethanol come from? The US's supply is corn. Highly dependent on fertilizer and highly ecologically unfriendly.

Gas available to me is only 90%fuel. It kills my idle speed motor. Some of my customers however love it. It's great for their business. Small engine repair. It kills them too. Seems it attracts moisture like a sponge.

My ethanol comes from Brazil, who has been running their cars on ethanol in decades. It is currently the best alternative with the least involvement of fossil fuels in the production. Your american corn based ethanol is a political thing. It takes as much fossil fuel (in termes of energy) to produce as the energy that comes out when you use the ethanol. I suspect it has more to do with economical support to the corn farmers and senators that wants to be re-ellected, at least that is what I've heard from US colleagues. But that's not an excuse to not look for better alternatives.

---------- Post added 06-18-2010 at 09:26 AM ----------

Douglas, because of American politics and the big oil companies, our choices at this time are rather limited. I bet there is not an ethanol station within 100 miles of me and that would include a city with over a million people in it.

Those pictures break my heart. I'm a Native Floridian (east coast) and spent several summer vacations on the Gulf. To see it die like that is just too awful.

As graphics point out, if it is american ethanol it wouldn't help due to the way it is produced.

Yes, those picturesare heart breaking. Let's hope they are also BP breaking, because they should be. But I suspect their lawyers are currently sharpening their knifes.

Have to agree with Subeeds, Douglas. In the state that I live in, up to
4 years ago, we had 4 automobile manufacturing facilities, because of
this, for someone to utilize any form of public transportation it was
impossible to go any distance other than a few, short kilometers.
We're starting to change, in little baby steps you might say.
We've lost 3 of 4 of the car plants in this depression.
Change is being made, yes, but not because of any enviromental
impetus, but that of economic neccessity.

Oil companies and car manufacturers have pretty strong political influence here also. Remember: Volvo and Saab are Swedish (or used to be before they were baught up, but lot of the production is still here). But why allow them to run the show?
Is it tru what I read that in the 30's-40's, US car manufacturers bought up public transport and just closed it down to force people to use cars?

[Phil1]

'If you've read the news today, or the last several days, you've learned that it's quite obvious that BP took unlawful shortcuts that caused the disaster.
It wasn't American worker error. It was corporate BP criminal negligence.'

Of course they did and so did the Federal gov't on deep well standards, sloppy rig inspections, pay offs, drugs and the usual fed gov't crap that the feds now would like you to forget. There is plenty of blame targets but it starts at the top and that would include the feds.

Don't forget these are the folks that brought you the S&L debauchel, Enron, AIG, Fanny Mae/Mack, shippy immigration policy, social security mess, and now Obama Care. The list does go on and on.

Spread the stickey wealth a little

[Parallax]

Your american corn based ethanol is a political thing. It takes as much fossil fuel (in termes of energy) to produce as the energy that comes out when you use the ethanol. I suspect it has more to do with economical support to the corn farmers and senators that wants to be re-ellected,

That is largely correct except that there is a slight (very slight) energy gain. The ratio is about 1:1.3. It is heavily subsidized and the price difference between E85 and 10% ethanol is controlled so as to make the cost of using E85 is almost exactly the same as gasoline; so there is no incentive there. Besides being a financial wash, there aren't enough stations that carry it to make it convenient.

[Phil1]

'My ethanol comes from Brazil, who has been running their cars on ethanol in decades. It is currently the best alternative with the least involvement of fossil fuels in the production. Your american corn based ethanol is a political thing. It takes as much fossil fuel (in termes of energy) to produce as the energy that comes out when you use the ethanol. I suspect it has more to do with economical support to the corn farmers and senators that wants to be re-ellected, at least that is what I've heard from US colleagues. But that's not an excuse to not look for better alternatives.'


Brazilian ethanol has a US import tariff of .52 cents a gallon last I heard. Strangley enough this is about what the US taxpayers pay ADM to subsidize making a gallon of US corn sourced ethanol. There is about a $1 US differance net here between the two sources. The US ethanol deal is a real bust and only good for Iowa corn farmers and ADM. Corn ethanol is not competitive with Brazilian sugar cane ethanol for starters.

E85 is only widely available in the corn belt states and of course has to have a gasoline component to make it run decently in cold temps. Ethanol is used as a low percentage dulution (less than 8% approx) to provide anti knock qualities to cheap gas. It is the substitute for tetra ethyl lead additives and the later Methyl tert-butyl ether (MTBE). The MTBE was gov't mandated and proved to be a terrible
toxic pollutabt of ground water etc. It is now outlawed. Another gov't screw up.

Ethanol has a small place in transportation power but is not the answer by a long shot for much. As a footnote ethanol has only about half the BTUs (read energy) per gallon volume so the per gallon output is substancially less when compared to gasoline. This translates to higher cost per mile. It also has no place in the diesel fuel world or air transportation fuels.

As a follow up Brazil tried ethanol for a while and has pretty much canned that in favor of gasoline/diesel. Brazil has newly discovered vast off shore oil reserves now.

That is largely correct except that there is a slight (very slight) energy gain. The ratio is about 1:1.3. It is heavily subsidized and the price difference between E85 and 10% ethanol is controlled so as to make the cost of using E85 is almost exactly the same as gasoline; so there is no incentive there. Besides being a financial wash, there aren't enough stations that carry it to make it convenient.

Actually reports I saw a couple years ago is it takes MORE fossil fuel to make corn ethanol. Remember you also need to take into account the resources needed to clean up all the heavy fertilizer pollution since corn is a heavy feeder. Don't forget that your mileage goes down with ethanol so it is really costing you more per mile that way too.

[Parallax]

............. Don't forget that your mileage goes down with ethanol so it is really costing you more per mile that way too.

Yes, that's what I was referring to when I said "the cost of using E85 is almost exactly the same as gasoline" The mileage in my truck drops by just about 25% with E85. I don't think it is just coincidence that the price for E85 is always, almost exactly, 75% that of gasoline.