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06-24-2010, 01:51 PM   #1
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Complexity of Immigration Reform

Bloomberg, CEOs Demand Citizenship for Undocumented Workers | NBC New York
QuoteQuote:
“Promoting continued US leadership in the global technology industry requires balanced immigration reform,” said Hewlett-Packard Chairman, CEO and President Mark Hurd.

On the lower end of the economic ladder, the coalition will press for citizenship for the millions of undocumented people who could become taxpaying employees working in hotel, domestic and agricultural jobs that American workers are less likely to take.

“We couldn’t operate our hotels in the U.S. without workers from other countries,” said Marriott International Chairman and CEO J.W. Marriott, Jr. “In some of our hotels, we have upwards of 50 languages spoken."

The Mayor's high profile focus on the national immigration issue will undoubtedly resurrect speculation that he's exploring a run for president.

As if to claim it's an absurd conclusion to draw, Bloomberg said "you know I like Nathan hot dogs, does that mean I’m running for president? What I’m running for is to try to get this country to do what's right so that my kids have a future."
QuoteQuote:
But this week brought one of the most unlikely pair of immigration reform drum beaters stumping for a path to “legal status” for illegal immigrants: Conservative figurehead and News Corp. head Rupert Murdoch and New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg. According to the Associated Press, they joined chief executives from Hewlett-Packaard, Boeing and Disney in forming a coalition called Partnership For a New American Economy that is advocating for immigration reform, including the left-for-dead idea of paving a path to legal status for all undocumented immigrants now in the United States.

The idea behind the group, which also includes other big city mayors, is to reframe the immigration debate as a solution to repair and stimulate the economy, arguing that their companies, and the country, depend on immigrants.

The group intends to put pressure on legislators by publishing studies, conducting polls and paying for public education campaigns in support of their cause.

Billionaire mayor Bloomberg has long pushed for immigration reform, previously pushing for a DNA or fingerprint database to track all legal U.S. workers and arguing that deporting all 12 million undocumented immigrants would have a devastating effect on the economy.
Funny.....
http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/why-is-rupert-rooting-for-immigration-...stion-1076607/

06-24-2010, 02:01 PM   #2
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It would be very interesting if this could actually start an intelligent converstation on immigration, but I don't have high hopes.
06-24-2010, 06:08 PM   #3
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But what about those illegals who don't have any interest in U.S. Citizenship, just a place to work while they maintain their citizenship to their native counties? While sending money back home and flying their countries flag over the U.S. flag that is flying upside down? While consuming all of the governments handouts, while not paying taxes or social security to the U.S. and letting the rest of us cover the cost of their stay here and dising us for complaining.
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06-24-2010, 06:44 PM   #5
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It's pretty simple, 40 or so years of federal neglect has grown a 13-20,000,000 pound gorilla. Its time to kill it.

Disincentivize the reason for illegals to be here is pretty simple.
a. Enforce federal laws
b. No catch and release BS
c. Caught a second time is hard time or a huge fine.
d. No anchor or tourist baby citizenship.
e. Charge for thier education.
f. Heavily fine illegal employers.
g. Let Mexico pay for thier medical needs or set up clinics to care for them on an emergency basis.


Concurrently stop the flow at the borders by assisting local law enforcement in border states and reinforce the southern Border Patrol staff.

Most of the work is political. This obviously will not get done with the present crop of mush heads of both parties. Vote out those with unclear or pro-illegal industry positions if you agree it is a major issue and economic anchor. Oh yes it is a huge industry, just like BIG OIL. It includes your elected politicians, school districts, employers large and small, drug traders, lawyers and such.

The left would like to turn the issue into a racial one but my thoughts would direct you to youtube Aztlan and look around. Then Google Latino political organizations, drill down into the interestiong ones like La Raza (The Race) and brown KKK-like supremest group. Reconquesta is a fun one too. There is a huge collection of nut cases coddled by our lefty friends along with whole illegal industry. A lot of lefty idiology going here like the near bankrupt Los Angeles boycott of Arizona's effort to get the feds to get busy and follow the law. Funny Calif has had similar laws on the books for years. I trust LA will be boycotting Calif any time soon.

Just a heads up, Canadians and Mexicans are not a race. Illegals are not a race. Brown skin doesn't get a pass to break the law. Yes there are many non-mexican illegals here as well which are part of the problem.

Amnesty #1 gave about 2,000,000 citizenships out for nada. A proviso was to police the borders. The feds never did it. (I signed an afidavit for an illegal friend in this one).
Amnesty #2 will give away 12-20,000,000 more for nada. No the borders will not be policed. There is no reason to expect they will be. Obama won't do it and has said as much.

This will open the gates for what 30,000,000 more illegals on the next cycle. Who is brain dead here? We have a LEGAL immigration system in place.

Here is the primary Calf law 834b being the primary one:

1/20/01

CALIFORNIA PENAL CODES PERTAINING TO ILLEGALS
Click the above link to look these code sections up for yourself
Jump to 114 | 115 | 834b

SECTION 113

113. (a) Any person who manufactures or sells any false government document with the intent to conceal the true citizenship or resident alien status of another person is guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail for one year. Every false government document that is manufactured or sold in violation of this section may be charged and prosecuted as a separate and distinct violation, and consecutive sentences may be imposed for each violation.

(b) A prosecuting attorney shall have discretion to charge a defendant with a violation of this section or any other law that applies.

(c) As used in this section, "government document" means any document issued by the United States government or any state or local government, including, but not limited to, any passport, immigration visa, employment authorization card, birth certificate, driver's license, identification card, or social security card.

113. Any person who manufactures, distributes or sells false documents to conceal the true citizenship or resident alien status of another person is guilty of a felony, and shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for five years or by a fine of seventy-five thousand dollars ($75,000).

SECTION 114

114. Any person who uses false documents to conceal his or her true citizenship or resident alien status is guilty of a felony, and shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for five years or by a fine of twenty-five thousand dollars ($25,000).

SECTION 115

115. (a) Every person who knowingly procures or offers any false or forged instrument to be filed, registered, or recorded in any public office within this state, which instrument, if genuine, might be filed, registered, or recorded under any law of this state or of the United States, is guilty of a felony.

(b) Each instrument which is procured or offered to be filed, registered, or recorded in violation of subdivision (a) shall constitute a separate violation of this section.

(c) Except in unusual cases where the interests of justice would best be served if probation is granted, probation shall not be granted to, nor shall the execution or imposition of sentence be suspended for, any of the following persons:

(1) Any person with a prior conviction under this section who is again convicted of a violation of this section in a separate proceeding.

(2) Any person who is convicted of more than one violation of this section in a single proceeding, with intent to defraud another, and where the violations resulted in a cumulative financial loss exceeding one hundred thousand dollars ($100,000).

(d) For purposes of prosecution under this section, each act of procurement or of offering a false or forged instrument to be filed, registered, or recorded shall be considered a separately punishable offense.

115.1. (a) The Legislature finds and declares that the voters of California are entitled to accurate representations in materials that are directed to them in efforts to influence how they vote.

(b) No person shall publish or cause to be published, with intent to deceive, any campaign advertisement containing a signature that the person knows to be unauthorized.

(c) For purposes of this section, "campaign advertisement" means any communication directed to voters by means of a mass mailing as defined in Section 82041.5 of the Government Code, a paid television, radio, or newspaper advertisement, an outdoor advertisement, or any other printed matter, if the expenditures for that communication are required to be reported by Chapter 4 (commencing with Section 84100) of Title 9 of the Government Code.

(d) For purposes of this section, an authorization to use a signature shall be oral or written.

(e) Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit a person from publishing or causing to be published a reproduction of all or part of a document containing an actual or authorized signature, provided that the signature so reproduced shall not, with the intent to deceive, be incorporated into another document in a manner that falsely suggests that the person whose signature is reproduced has signed the other document.

(f) Any knowing or willful violation of this section is a public offense punishable by imprisonment in the state prison or in a county jail, or by a fine not to exceed fifty thousand dollars ($50,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.

(g) As used in this section, "signature" means either of the following:

(1) A handwritten or mechanical signature, or a copy thereof.

(2) Any representation of a person's name, including, but not limited to, a printed or typewritten representation, that serves the same purpose as a handwritten or mechanical signature.

115.2. (a) No person shall publish or cause to be published, with actual knowledge, and intent to deceive, any campaign advertisement containing false or fraudulent depictions, or false or fraudulent representations, of official public documents or purported official public documents.

(b) For purposes of this section, "campaign advertisement" means any communication directed to voters by means of a mass mailing as defined in Section 82041.5 of the Government Code, a paid newspaper advertisement, an outdoor advertisement, or any other printed matter, if the expenditures for that communication are required to be reported by Chapter 4 (commencing with Section 84100) of Title 9 of the Government Code.

(c) Any violation of this section is a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in the county jail, or by a fine not to exceed fifty thousand dollars ($50,000), or both.

115.25. (a) No person or entity shall authorize the production or distribution, or participate in the authorization of the production or distribution, of any document, including, but not limited to, any campaign advertisement, as defined in subdivision (d), that the person or entity knows contains inaccurate emergency service phone numbers for various emergency services, including, but not limited to, police, fire, or ambulance services.

(b) A violation of subdivision (a) shall be an infraction, punishable by a fine not exceeding two hundred fifty dollars ($250).

(c) A violation of subdivision (a) resulting in the serious injury or death of persons who innocently rely on the erroneous phone numbers contained in the document is a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars ($10,000), by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or by both that fine and imprisonment.

(d) For purposes of this section, "campaign advertisement" means any communication directed to voters by means of a mass mailing, as defined in Section 82041.5 of the Government Code, a paid television, radio, or newspaper advertisement, an outdoor advertisement, or any other printed matter, if the expenditures for that communication are required to be reported by Chapter 4 (commencing with Section 84100) of Title 9 of the Government Code.

115.3. Any person who alters a certified copy of an official record, or knowingly furnishes an altered certified copy of an official record, of this state, including the executive, legislative, and judicial branches thereof, or of any city, county, city and county, district, or political subdivision thereof, is guilty of a misdemeanor.

115.5. (a) Every person who files any false or forged document or instrument with the county recorder which affects title to, places an encumbrance on, or places an interest secured by a mortgage or deed of trust on, real property consisting of a single-family residence containing not more than four dwelling units, with knowledge that the document is false or forged, is punishable, in addition to any other punishment, by a fine not exceeding seventy-five thousand dollars ($75,000).

(b) Every person who makes a false sworn statement to a notary public, with knowledge that the statement is false, to induce the notary public to perform an improper notarial act on an instrument or document affecting title to, or placing an encumbrance on, real property consisting of a single-family residence containing not more than four dwelling units is guilty of a felony.

SECTION 834b

834b. (a) Every law enforcement agency in California shall fully cooperate with the United States Immigration and Naturalization Service regarding any person who is arrested if he or she is suspected of being present in the United States in violation of federal immigration laws.

(b) With respect to any such person who is arrested, and suspected of being present in the United States in violation of federal immigration laws, every law enforcement agency shall do the following:

(1) Attempt to verify the legal status of such person as a citizen of the United States, an alien lawfully admitted as a permanent resident, an alien lawfully admitted for a temporary period of time or as an alien who is present in the United States in violation of immigration laws. The verification process may include, but shall not be limited to, questioning the person regarding his or her date and place of birth, and entry into the United States, and demanding documentation to indicate his or her legal status.

(2) Notify the person of his or her apparent status as an alien who is present in the United States in violation of federal immigration laws and inform him or her that, apart from any criminal justice proceedings, he or she must either obtain legal status or leave the United States.

(3) Notify the Attorney General of California and the United States Immigration and Naturalization Service of the apparent illegal status and provide any additional information that may be requested by any other public entity.

(c) Any legislative, administrative, or other action by a city, county, or other legally authorized local governmental entity with jurisdictional boundaries, or by a law enforcement agency, to prevent or limit the cooperation required by subdivision (a) is expressly prohibited.


The illeagl stack is now
06-24-2010, 06:48 PM   #6
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'The idea behind the group, which also includes other big city mayors, is to reframe the immigration debate as a solution to repair and stimulate the economy, arguing that their companies, and the country, depend on immigrants.'

Add more people to a bad economy to repair and stimulate it ???? Not real bright, sounds like folks are looking for cheap labor.

Round them up and send them home. Immigrate legally. We don't need any new laws, just enforce what we have. Or better yet, pattern our laws to match the countries that our Illegal Immigrants come from.
06-24-2010, 06:59 PM   #7
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We can't afford that.
Will you do it for free?

06-24-2010, 07:15 PM   #8
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''The idea behind the group, which also includes other big city mayors, is to reframe the immigration debate as a solution to repair and stimulate the economy, arguing that their companies, and the country, depend on immigrants.'"

I tend to disagree on the economic reason. Concidering the polls have been running 60 - 80% in favor of Arizona's stand across the country, it is ideology, open borders, screw the law and some assumption it will gain favor with the hard core left. Look at the locations that have done this like Los Angeles (Mexico City II) and Sacramento. Both are liberal havens and likely have not read Arizoona's law like Obama, Holder et al, and if they did would vote that way again anyway like Obama sueing Arizona (pending). The overall economics of illegals is a net loss not a gain particularly in the present.
06-24-2010, 07:58 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by Phil1 Quote
It's pretty simple, 40 or so years of federal neglect has grown a 13-20,000,000 pound gorilla. Its time to kill it.

Disincentivize the reason for illegals to be here is pretty simple.
a. Enforce federal laws
b. No catch and release BS
c. Caught a second time is hard time or a huge fine.
d. No anchor or tourist baby citizenship.
e. Charge for thier education.
f. Heavily fine illegal employers.
g. Let Mexico pay for thier medical needs or set up clinics to care for them on an emergency basis.
Jail probably costs more........
QuoteOriginally posted by Phil1 Quote
California Penal Code 834b
DAN STEIN // STEIN REPORT 2000-2009® | Federation for American Immigration Reform
June 10, 2010
The Real Story of California Penal Code 834b and Arizona's SB 1070

QuoteQuote:
A: California Penal Code 834b is the statutory language added to the California Penal Code by Prop. 187. In 1997, then-Governor Gray Davis moved to put the lawsuit filed (League of United Latin American Citizens v. Wilson, 908 F.Supp. 755, 763 (C.D.Cal.1995)) into mediation. Subsequently, the initial injunction that held that provisions of Prop. 187 were pre-empted was not challenged. The move by Davis allowed the challenge to Prop. 187 to prevail, and the 9th Circuit opinion about the pre-emption issue was never litigated to a conclusion.

QuoteQuote:
Q: Isn't there a way for California to start enforcing Section 834b?

A: No, because of the decision in LULAC v. Wilson, California cannot enforce those provisions. California voters or California's legislature need to pass an Arizona-style immigration measure again, and also defend it in court as Arizona is preparing to do.

Q: Is there any enforceable provision of California Law Similar to SB 1070?

A: There is a California Code Section that is in place, has been upheld by a California Appellate Court and is similar to the Arizona Statute. Under Section 11369 of the Health and Safety Code, "[w]hen there is reason to believe that any person arrested for a violation [of any of 14 specified drug offenses] may not be a citizen of the United States, the arresting agency shall notify the appropriate agency of the United States having charge of deportation matters." Fonseca v. Fong, (2008). Similar to that provision, SB 1070 requires an Arizona State Officer who has reason to believe that someone is in the country unlawfully, to contact the federal government, so that the federal government can determine the suspect's immigration status.


---------- Post added 06-24-2010 at 08:02 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Phil1 Quote
''The idea behind the group, which also includes other big city mayors, is to reframe the immigration debate as a solution to repair and stimulate the economy, arguing that their companies, and the country, depend on immigrants.'"

I tend to disagree on the economic reason.
Glad you "know better"............. I don't remeber my great grandparents filling out a cluster %&*( of forms or even having to learn English.)
Of course they weren't brown..........
QuoteQuote:
Over 100 million American men, women, and children can trace their heritage to the arrival of immigrants at Ellis Island n New York harbor between 1892 and 1954............All had passports and other papers detailing information about themselves. Second- and third-class passengers were usually processed and on their way before those in steerage. Many of the new arrivals were young adults clutching the hands of children and carrying babies. Most had all their earthly possessions in a “bundle” (a makeshift sack or blanket) or a suitcase. Few expected ever to return to their homelands. Their reasons for coming to the United States were as varied as the people themselves (8).

Having secured passage from places such as Hamburg or Liverpool, immigrants usually booked one-way passage with the expectation of staying. If they were detained or forced to return by authorities at Ellis Island, steamboat companies bore the expense. The percentage of returnees was about 2 percent, or sometimes up to one thousand a month.................Once past medical inspection, immigrants joined one of many lines to answer remaining questions. Here in the span of about two minutes inspectors decided whether to admit the immigrants into the United States. It was not unusual for inspectors to work twelve-hour shifts during the peak immigration period from early spring to late fall. Sometimes immigrants without sufficient money would have to wait for the arrival of a relative or funds before leaving, but generally five days was the maximum stay at Ellis Island. Additionally, circumstances prompted boards of inquiry to ascertain why some immigrants were migrating and to determine whether they should be detained or deported. Alerts about criminals wanted in other countries, suspicion of contract laborers, or simply the fear that extremely poor people would become public charges were common (12).

The processing experience seemed inhumane at times because of the sheer numbers, but most of the commissioners in charge tried to move the people through as quickly as the ever-tightening immigration laws allowed. Beginning with legislation in 1924, more processing took place at the point of departure, making the job less tedious for American inspectors. For the approximate 20 percent who failed immediate clearance and required detention, fourteen dormitories organized by gender were equipped with canvas or wire mesh mattresses for sleeping. The dormitories accommodated up to fifty people and lined the balcony overlooking the registry room. A large dining room served meals on a continual basis to both those passing through and those detained. Over twenty years the island grew to become a miniature city where a staff of seven hundred doctors, nurses, interpreters, matrons, clerks, maintenance workers, and night guards worked up to twelve-hour days, seven days a week. Groups such as the YMCA, Red Cross, and Salvation Army assisted by serving coffee and donuts, providing used clothing, and helping find lost luggage, wandering children, and mainland relatives. Holidays were observed with special events such as parties produced by the welfare groups (13).

Ellis Island served as a transition place for thousands of immigrants. Marking the division between their past and their unknown future, processing at Ellis Island was an experience few ever forgot. Once the experience was complete, a barge took new arrivals to Battery Park at the tip of Manhattan where they were met by relatives, directed to sites within the city, or sent to train stations to connect with points throughout the United States. While many lived out the remainder of their days in New York, many others went to Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, and other cities. Thousands more headed for the farmlands of Iowa, Nebraska, and Kansas.
http://www.oah.org/pubs/magazine/gilded/koman.html
Wonder if their HMO paid??? Out of network I suspect.
QuoteQuote:
The medical facilities included a 275-bed hospital, contagious disease wards for 450, X-ray facilities, laboratories, and a morgue. Between 1900 and 1954, 355 births and 3,500 deaths (1,400 of them of children) were recorded. In 1924 alone the record showed nearly fifty surgical procedures performed monthly (11).
Of course we can't afford health care for "Americans"......

Last edited by jeffkrol; 06-24-2010 at 08:12 PM.
06-24-2010, 09:31 PM   #10
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"Jail probably costs more........ 'Real weak argument. Jail in a productive jail might even break even. It's for a second time around as the suggestion stated. That would be opposed to a catch and release so we get 5 and 6 times deported people caught for violent crimes. Dude, the border is a sieve. Thank a liberal if you don't like it.



Interesting you brought up Lulac and a sister organization La Raza (The Race) who house and do much of the same pro-illegal lobby work and law suits. Pretty amazing racist groups. In the case of La Raza the Title Sponsor for last year was Mc donalds. Not because Mexicans prefer french fries but because McDs is a huge employer of illegals which is illegal in itself. Google La Raza and Lula. Prop 187 was a citizens initiative proposition that was passed by a good margin by the people of the liberal state of Calif by the way. Simply amazing eh?

"Glad you "know better"............. I don't remeber my great grandparents filling out a cluster %&*( of forms or even having to learn English.)
Of course they weren't brown.........."


Amazingly 1,000,000 folks of all colors manage to do the legal immigration thing annually just fine. Regarding learning the lanquage is simply a path to success. If the lanquage of origin is prefered why not stay where they came from rather than spending $2-$3,000 with a coyote? Not many get here for free unless they are drug mules.

"Of course we can't afford health care for "Americans"...... "
Great point. We just welcomed 12-20,000,000 illegals on to Obama Care which we won't be able to afford.
06-24-2010, 10:13 PM   #11
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When are you guys ever going to admit that it's a kind of exodus.
Getting close to biblical proportions too.
Spains revenge? Maybe.
Those seeds were sown long ago.
It's sad really. Non of the plans I've seen put forward are ever going to stop it.
06-25-2010, 03:59 AM   #12
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'When are you guys ever going to admit that it's a kind of exodus.
Getting close to biblical proportions too.'


I seriously doubt 12-20,000,000 Jews left Egypt in secret that night.
06-25-2010, 06:28 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Glad you "know better"............. I don't remeber my great grandparents filling out a cluster %&*( of forms or even having to learn English.)
Of course they weren't brown..........
My grandparents had to learn English when they got here. And within 5 years were citizens. There was no "English as a second language" crap either. And the grandparents on dad's side had to learn a whole new alphabet to boot. Guess they were just smarter than those coming in today.
06-26-2010, 10:24 AM   #14
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Stupid is as stupid does

Let's see some hard facts..... no, having a joint in your pocket does not a drug mule make. Actually last time I looked into this most marijuana is grown in the US and Canada and run by Mexican and Asian cartels.. Then there's that big bunch in Kentucy ect. that replaced moonshine w/ pot.... good old boys.
No stats on harder stuff though.......
Arizona immigration debate heats up with Gov Jan Brewer saying most illegal immigrants smuggle drugs
Counter points in the article..........
QuoteQuote:
Crime rates in Arizona's border towns have been flat for the past 10 years, the Arizona Republic reports, even as drug violence in Mexico intensifies.

Border Patrol and the Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency were unable to provide data to support or dispute Brewer.

However, the president of the Border Patrol union said that since drug charges carry stiffer penalties, few illegal immigrants trying to find work were willing to take the risk of prison time.

"The majority of people continue to come across in search of work, not to smuggle drugs," T.J. Bonner said.
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/06/26/2010-06-26_arizona_immig...#ixzz0rysz4dAP
06-27-2010, 02:43 PM   #15
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The debate about illegals has been going on for decades. Back in the late 70's, I lived in Mesa, Az. when Mesa was actually outside Phoenix instead of a suburb of it. Barry Goldwater was then a senator and I remember a huge outcry when he was "caught" with illegals working in his lemon groves. Of course the news story died a quick death without ever telling what happened to BG.
I consider myself to be a moderate liberal. In the last few years, though, I've seen my husband who used to be in the home building business, lose job bid after job bid to people who use legal and illegal immigrants. They can under bid him by so much. It makes me a little less moderate about some issues like this one.
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