[Rico]

Thats the problem with you Americans, you only give a shit about yourselves and try to destroy the rest of the world. Perhaps one day there will be a war on U.S. soil and the opposing country will treat you with as little respect as you people have all around the world. And when you cry about the millions of U.S. citizens that have died, they will tell you to STFU because 100 soldiers have died trying to kill you guys.

Dont talk about topics you dont know shit about because Puerto Ricans never wanted an Navy base anywhere in Vieques. Perhaps you would like to see videos of my fellow compatriots throwing molotovs at the Navy base in Vieques back in the 60's

I care about ALL other lives as much as I care about my own. I would never start a war with a third-world country to kill thousands of there innocent civilians just to get back at the group of terrorist who perpetrated the acts of 9/11. Obviously no one around here realizes that Osama Bin landen is the equivalent of emmanuel goldstein

Cant we have a policy where people 400 pounds or more can't post on here? It slows down my bandwidth

Dude you are clueless. You don't care about no one except hating Americans. You showed your hate filled true colors.

Oh I forgot:

Keep forgetting our fallen soldiers (insert your own expletive here to describe szurinaga).

[Oldschool]

I think everyone here should step back from the keyboard, grab your camera and go out and take some pictures. This thread will be closed shortly if the tone doesn't change. No, I'm not a moderator, but let's try to be civil here.

[Rico]

Just to keep it clear, that is not the only way we kill civilians. We take out a power plant, water plant, well, home, etc., and people die. We cut off transportation, and people die. We take out the government and are unable to replace the law and order, and people die from the havoc that results. We start a war in an area and bullets spray from all sides, and people die. There is no such thing as a "surgical" war.

When we fight wars, people, including numerous noncombatants, die. It is why we need to be very, very careful with this power.

GeneV the only problem with your scenario is those things have to exist in the country to begin with to be destroyed in the first place. I doubt Afghanistan had any of those things power plants water plants etc of any significance that it would have affected the general population as a whole to cause mass deaths.

Even in Iraq those services were basically non existent to the greater population other then Saddam Husseins immediate circles.

No were have I said either that civilians haven't died. Civilians inevitably die in such conflicts. Due mostly to the fact they are used as shields by a bunch of cowards. But to sit here and claim coalition troops are responsible for tens of thousands of civilian deaths is ludicrous.

What about the things the Coalition troops have provided for the civilians populations in Afghanistan and Iraq. Like better water and sewer treatment. Better availability to electricity. Healthcare services that parts of Afghanistan probably hadn't seen in 20 years. For every civilian killed by accident by Coalition troops there are tens of thousand of good deeds happening to hundreds of thousands if not millions of other civilians that go unreported on.

I don't see anyone thanking the troops for their efforts that the media never report on. In the eyes of some the only good soldier is a dead soldier who should just be forgotten.

[GeneV]

GeneV the only problem with your scenario is those things have to exist in the country to begin with to be destroyed in the first place. I doubt Afghanistan had any of those things power plants water plants etc of any significance that it would have affected the general population as a whole to cause mass deaths.

Even in Iraq those services were basically non existent to the greater population other then Saddam Husseins immediate circles.

No were have I said either that civilians haven't died. Civilians inevitably die in such conflicts. Due mostly to the fact they are used as shields by a bunch of cowards. But to sit here and claim coalition troops are responsible for tens of thousands of civilian deaths is ludicrous.

What about the things the Coalition troops have provided for the civilians populations in Afghanistan and Iraq. Like better water and sewer treatment. Better availability to electricity. Healthcare services that parts of Afghanistan probably hadn't seen in 20 years. For every civilian killed by accident by Coalition troops there are tens of thousand of good deeds happening to hundreds of thousands if not millions of other civilians that go unreported on.

I don't see anyone thanking the troops for their efforts that the media never report on. In the eyes of some the only good soldier is a dead soldier who should just be forgotten.

Thanking the soldiers has nothing to do with whether the war is a good idea. Soldiers suffer and die in bad wars as well as good. Many of my friends left parts of their bodies in Vietnam. Their sacrifice is appreciated, but there was little accomplished by it in the long run.

It is real easy to get a rough idea of the effects of a war. How many were dying each month before and after the invasion? In Iraq, the difference under Hussein and after the invasion was huge, and by about a million people not to our benefit. It was not just his inner circle that benefitted from civilization.

Afghanistan is less developed than Iraq, but the war definitely means that food and supplies do not move through the countryside and that civilians will be killed by soldiers on both sides.

I'd suggest you read up on what, if any, real improvements we've made to their lives before you make assumptions. You can't build much infrastructure during a war. The main reason why there probably won't be as big a difference in the death rate in Afghanistan before and after invasion as compared to Iraq is that Afghanistan is constantly under invasion.

[Peter Zack]

Well guys it's unfortunately time to shut this one down. Another thread that has turned far too personal.