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07-14-2010, 02:52 AM   #121
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The only thing I can see so far that qualifies Obama as being a true socialist is the fact that he wants accessible, government regulated medical care for all Americans whether they can afford to pay for it or not. Other than that he seems no less a fervent capitalist than any other president to date. If he wasn't he'd be kissing corporate arse a lot less than he is.

07-14-2010, 05:59 AM   #122
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In truth, Obama's positions are closer to Nixon than Roosevelt (let alone Ho Chi Minh). His health plan is similar to that proposed under Nixon. He is trying to end an ill-advised war started by a predecessor of a different party by escalating it. Both favor(ed) regulation to solve problems in the business sector. Nixon took the U.S. off the gold standard to help finance deficits, and presidents since Nixon, including Obama, have gladly utilized the tools that financializing our monetary system gave them.

Nixon even attempted direct control of prices and wages. Obama has not gone there yet. Nixon was more of a socialist.

It is a little scary, actually. If Obama has a second term, perhaps we will find out there was a break-in at the Republican headquarters. In any case, Obama is no socialist, unless your view is an Ayn Rand view, in which case 95% of all politicians of either party are socialist.
07-14-2010, 07:16 AM   #123
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Nice work, Gene. Would've been a good post to close the thread on.
07-14-2010, 07:31 AM   #124
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We can always do the P&R forum equivalent of a filibuster: start insulting each other so the thread gets closed

07-14-2010, 07:32 AM   #125
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:eyes: ................
07-14-2010, 07:43 AM   #126
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There is one other scary similarity between Nixon and Obama--I actively supported both of them. I hit the streets for Tricky Dick as a Young Republican in 1972. I hope I'm not a curse.

When I look at where we were then and now, my views haven't really changed all that much from my ardent Republican decade.
07-14-2010, 07:50 AM   #127
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
...........

When I look at where we were then and now, my views haven't really changed all that much from my ardent Republican decade.
Mine haven't either. Unfortunately the views of the Republican party (whatever they are now; I'm still not clear on that anymore.) have changed since then.
It seems to me that the Democrat and Republican pendulums, which are constantly in motion opposite to each other are currently at the bottom of their respective arcs, just now passing each other.
It makes it very difficult to determine who stands for what, or if either of them actually stand for anything. As time passes and the swing continues, the ideology will diverge more and become more clear; but will have reversed in nature from what they were 10, 20 30 years ago.


Last edited by Parallax; 07-14-2010 at 07:58 AM.
07-14-2010, 07:54 AM   #128
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I believe they still think this works

QuoteQuote:
When Republican Sen. Jon Kyl said on Fox News that tax cuts had no impact on the deficit, that was bad enough. But Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell grabs the wacko baton and sprints ahead when he tells TPMDC's Brian Beutler that "there's no evidence whatsoever that the Bush tax cuts actually diminished revenue. They increased revenue because of the vibrancy of these tax cuts in the economy."
Hey Mitch McConnell, Bush Economists Said Tax Cuts Did Grow the Deficit - Business - The Atlantic
QuoteQuote:
Sen. McConnell might not believe the evidence provided by the Congressional Budget Office, the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, the Joint Tax Committee, or the Brookings Institution, all of which concludes that the Bush tax cuts added to the deficit.

But surely he should believe President George W. Bush's own Ph.D-wielding economists. Many of them have gone on the record to say that while they supported the tax cuts, they didn't for one second believe they raised government revenue.

1) The Council of Economic Advisers' Report to the President, 2003: "Although the economy grows in response to tax reductions (because of higher consumption in the short run and improved incentives in the long run), it is unlikely to grow so much that lost tax revenue is completely recovered by the higher level of economic activity."

2) The chair of CEA from 2003-2005, Greg Mankiw: "Some supply-siders like to claim that the distortionary effect of taxes is so large that increasing tax rates reduces tax revenue. Like most economists, I don't find that conclusion credible for most tax hikes, and I doubt Mr. Paulson does either."

3) He's right! Hank Paulson, Bush's last Treasury Secretary, doesn't: "As a general rule, I don't believe that tax cuts pay for themselves."

4) That opinion was shared by Andrew Samwick, Chief Economist on Council of Economic Advisers, 2003-2004: "No thoughtful person believes that this possible offset [the Bush tax cuts] more than compensated for the first effect for these tax cuts. Not a single one."...

5) ... and Edward Lazear, chair of the Council of Economic Advisers in 2007: "I certainly would not claim that tax cuts pay for themselves."
And then there's this...............
http://www.perrspectives.com/blog/archives/001749.htm
QuoteQuote:
GOP Budget Proposal: Ration Medicare, Privatize Social Security
http://www.perrspectives.com/blog/archives/001651.htm
QuoteQuote:
Instead of poll-driven "solutions," let's talk about real health-care reform: market-oriented, patient-centered, and result-driven. As the Cato Institute's Michael Cannon and others have argued, such policies include giving all individuals the same tax benefits received by those who get coverage through their employers; providing Medicare recipients with vouchers that allow them to purchase their own coverage; reforming tort laws to potentially save billions each year in wasteful spending; and changing costly state regulations to allow people to buy insurance across state lines. Rather than another top-down government plan, let's give Americans control over their own health care.
Like THAT would accomplish that........
To quote the Morticia Addams .
QuoteQuote:
And our credo, "Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc"..."We gladly feast on those who would subdue us". Not just pretty words.
Maybe Gomez is more appropriate........
QuoteQuote:
We danced the Mamushka while Nero fiddled...we danced the Mamushka at Waterloo...we danced the Mamushka for Jack the Ripper. And now, Fester Addams- this Mamushka is for you.
Plenty of good lines here:
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_Addams_Family_%28film%29

Last edited by jeffkrol; 07-14-2010 at 09:09 AM.
07-14-2010, 10:41 AM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
It makes it very difficult to determine who stands for what, or if either of them actually stand for anything. As time passes and the swing continues, the ideology will diverge more and become more clear; but will have reversed in nature from what they were 10, 20 30 years ago.
The less the true differences between the parties in governing are, the more they try to remain relevant by rhetoric and symbolic action desgned to keep their teams together.

Quite frankly, I am all right with the parties not getting too wrapped up in ideology, if they didn't feel they needed to act like they are. Personalities aside, what I like about Nixon and Obama is that they seem to govern as pragmatists. Sacred cows hold up traffic. (Dissing them also gets me into arguments with my lovely but classicly liberal wife.)
07-14-2010, 11:54 AM   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
Mine haven't either. Unfortunately the views of the Republican party (whatever they are now; I'm still not clear on that anymore.) have changed since then.

You do realize, of course, that the same party that is trying to sell the same crap they screwed up the country with *wants* anger and confusion, and that if you elect them, they'll be just as heedless of what you thought they were voting for as the *last* time?


The gripe with the Dems is that they *haven't stood up like we all put them on notice to,* not that suddenly the GOP stopping anything too productive happening and screaming till people think there's a controversy will make the same policies they wanted all along work any better the next time...


The GOP started off screaming, 'Obama wants to do too much!' spent the rest of their efforts blocking everything, and now wants to say, 'See! We killed hope and change! Now you want more of what we pissed you off for in the first place! But with hats! '

Yah, right.

Time to stop treating the future of our nation like Canon v Nikon.

Really.


If the process is confused, let's start figuring out what we *want,* not which meaningless ideoogical drivel to take sides over.
07-26-2010, 11:41 PM   #131
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I know exactly what a socialist entails, afterall I was a big fan of the smurfs. You can like a show but living that way is another story.
Everyone is three apples tall. No one backtalks Papa Smurf, just look at what happens to brainy.
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