Missouri Voters Reject Health Insurance Mandate 70:30

mikemike · 08-04-2010, 08:37 AM

A referendum rejecting the individual mandate passed in bellwether Missouri passed with an overwhelming majority of 71%. What does this mean for November and the future of Obama's signature legislation.

Did the Health Insurance reform bill budget for the millions that will be spent fighting for it in the courts?

jeffkrol · 08-04-2010, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by mikemike

A referendum rejecting the individual mandate passed in bellwether Missouri passed with an overwhelming majority of 71%. What does this mean for November and the future of Obama's signature legislation.

Did the Health Insurance reform bill budget for the millions that will be spent fighting for it in the courts?

Watch the first part..........
They're Not Embarrassed Crooks and Liars Media
U-tube addendum.

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Ira · 08-04-2010, 11:42 AM

Referendums are how dictators stay in power.

On the whole, people are idiots.

stevewig · 08-04-2010, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by Ira

Referendums are how dictators stay in power.

On the whole, people are idiots.

In some respects you are right.

That is why public opinion polls can change overnight (even though nothing happened) and why somebody who has never said anything important in their life can be considered a great leader and why persons of great wisdom are seldom, if ever, elected into power.

Wasn't it the Luddites that went around breaking up machinery in the 19th century because it was "putting them out of work".

And isn't it true that generally you get the quality of government that you (collectively) deserve?

Those are the facts of Democracy.

Parallax · 08-04-2010, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by stevewig

.................

And isn't it true that generally you get the quality of government that you (collectively) deserve?

That may very well be true; but quality aside, aren't you glad we aren't getting quantity of government we're paying for?

mikemike · 08-04-2010, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by Parallax

That may very well be true; but quality aside, aren't you glad we aren't getting quantity of government we're paying for?

If we were getting the quantity of government we were paying for it would be a much, much smaller government. I would rather prefer that.

stevewig · 08-04-2010, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by mikemike

If we were getting the quantity of government we were paying for it would be a much, much smaller government. I would rather prefer that.

A very popular vote getting slogan!

Sounds such a very nice theoretical proposal, but where is your list of government reduction items or items that have no business being under government.

Remember, the US is also a Democracy and Health Care was Obama's biggest item on his election platform. The whole country new this and they elected him anyway.

So now what?

Wheatfield · 08-04-2010, 07:13 PM - **1 Like**

The problem with referendums (and actually democracy in general) is that they tend to pander more to the well off, since those are the people who are politically empowered.
Check your voters statistics sometime, I'll bet you find the majority of poor people don't vote, which means that democracy tends to be very skewed towards the wishes of the rich.

JeffJS · 08-04-2010, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by stevewig

A very popular vote getting slogan!

Sounds such a very nice theoretical proposal, but where is your list of government reduction items or items that have no business being under government.

Remember, the US is also a Democracy and Health Care was Obama's biggest item on his election platform. The whole country new this and they elected him anyway.

So now what?

No it isn't. It's a Republic.

An Important Distinction: Democracy versus Republic

troglodyte · 08-04-2010, 10:50 PM - **1 Like**

JeffJS,
Tell that to our public schools, media and even the politicians. People are dumb and will say, 'that's a lie we're a democracy and we give other countries like Iraq democracy too!' I guess no one listens to the pledge, 'and to the republic.' Also

---------- Post added 08-04-10 at 09:53 PM ----------

the fact the Constitution never once says democracy but states over and over republic. People can't understand simple things even when shoved down their thoats!

JeffJS · 08-05-2010, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by troglodyte

JeffJS,
Tell that to our public schools, media and even the politicians. People are dumb and will say, 'that's a lie we're a democracy and we give other countries like Iraq democracy too!' I guess no one listens to the pledge, 'and to the republic.' Also

---------- Post added 08-04-10 at 09:53 PM ----------

the fact the Constitution never once says democracy but states over and over republic. People can't understand simple things even when shoved down their thoats!

I would but since they are all running around with their heads up their butt I doubt they would hear it. The politicians don't know what the constitution (a document they are sworn to uphold) is, so I don't really expect the brainwashing centers and the media to have a clue either.

Parallax · 08-05-2010, 05:03 AM

Originally posted by Wheatfield

Check your voters statistics sometime, I'll bet you find the majority of poor people don't vote, which means that democracy tends to be very skewed towards the wishes of the rich.

You're right; but the people (rich, poor, and in between) who don't vote, could vote if they wanted to. Anybody who doesn't vote abstained by choice, and anybody who doesn't vote has no legitimate complaint about the outcome.

mikemike · 08-05-2010, 06:26 AM

Originally posted by Wheatfield

The problem with referendums (and actually democracy in general) is that they tend to pander more to the well off, since those are the people who are politically empowered.
Check your voters statistics sometime, I'll bet you find the majority of poor people don't vote, which means that democracy tends to be very skewed towards the wishes of the rich.

People who are well off, at least in America, tend to be well off because they have an internal locust of control and believe that they have the power to influence any situation to their benefit.

That determination would help them rise to the top and skew any non-autocratic system of government to their favor.

If you don't vote, your views will not get represented. I am very familiar with voter statistics, and politicians drive their marketing not by household income statistics but rather by voter habits. If you are a "chronic voter" who votes in every election you will get lots of mailers and calls whenever their is an election even if you didn't have two nickels to rub together. If you aren't registered to vote you won't get a shred of mail from politicians even if you were a billionaire.

stevewig · 08-05-2010, 06:31 AM

Originally posted by JeffJS

No it isn't. It's a Republic.

An Important Distinction: Democracy versus Republic

Oh I see.....

So you don't use the popular vote for establishing a new Government and President (based on their policies and election promises)?

When they do assume the role of Government/President you do not expect them to keep and carry out their promises?

Ira · 08-05-2010, 06:59 AM

Referendums are weird, because on the one hand, you would think it's a good thing to give the final say of a decision to the people--like offshore drilling in Florida.

But how informed is the general public about how much money this really means to the state? (Mind you, I'm against it for environmental reasons, but I have no clue about the financial aspects.)

Referendums had me witness the loss of democracy in Venezuela (a subject and country near and dear to me), where the people decided to say the hell with the Constitution and Chavez can be president forever. A referendum that FAILED the first time, shady political machinations followed, and was put up and illegally passed the second time.

Referendums also saw me on line waiting to vote last general election, with dozens of blacks all excited and vocal about Obama and "finally getting their rights"--while also being quite vocal in their support for Proposition 8--denying those same rights to gays.

Like I said, I think people are basically idiots, and unless aliens land and show us what to do, we're all doomed.

08-04-2010, 08:37 AM	#1
mikemike Inactive Account Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: New Orleans Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,053	Missouri Voters Reject Health Insurance Mandate 70:30 A referendum rejecting the individual mandate passed in bellwether Missouri passed with an overwhelming majority of 71%. What does this mean for November and the future of Obama's signature legislation. Did the Health Insurance reform bill budget for the millions that will be spent fighting for it in the courts?

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08-04-2010, 11:42 AM	#3
Ira Inactive Account Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Coral Springs, FL Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,216	Referendums are how dictators stay in power. On the whole, people are idiots.

08-04-2010, 12:43 PM	#4
stevewig Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 773	Originally posted by Ira Referendums are how dictators stay in power. On the whole, people are idiots. In some respects you are right. That is why public opinion polls can change overnight (even though nothing happened) and why somebody who has never said anything important in their life can be considered a great leader and why persons of great wisdom are seldom, if ever, elected into power. Wasn't it the Luddites that went around breaking up machinery in the 19th century because it was "putting them out of work". And isn't it true that generally you get the quality of government that you (collectively) deserve? Those are the facts of Democracy.

08-04-2010, 12:47 PM	#5
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,333	Originally posted by stevewig ................. And isn't it true that generally you get the quality of government that you (collectively) deserve? That may very well be true; but quality aside, aren't you glad we aren't getting quantity of government we're paying for?

08-04-2010, 01:55 PM	#6
mikemike Inactive Account Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: New Orleans Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,053 Original Poster	Originally posted by Parallax That may very well be true; but quality aside, aren't you glad we aren't getting quantity of government we're paying for? If we were getting the quantity of government we were paying for it would be a much, much smaller government. I would rather prefer that.

08-04-2010, 05:47 PM	#7
stevewig Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 773	Originally posted by mikemike If we were getting the quantity of government we were paying for it would be a much, much smaller government. I would rather prefer that. A very popular vote getting slogan! Sounds such a very nice theoretical proposal, but where is your list of government reduction items or items that have no business being under government. Remember, the US is also a Democracy and Health Care was Obama's biggest item on his election platform. The whole country new this and they elected him anyway. So now what?

08-04-2010, 07:13 PM - 1 Like	#8
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 15,986	The problem with referendums (and actually democracy in general) is that they tend to pander more to the well off, since those are the people who are politically empowered. Check your voters statistics sometime, I'll bet you find the majority of poor people don't vote, which means that democracy tends to be very skewed towards the wishes of the rich.

08-04-2010, 10:00 PM	#9
JeffJS Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Michigan, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 7,484	Originally posted by stevewig A very popular vote getting slogan! Sounds such a very nice theoretical proposal, but where is your list of government reduction items or items that have no business being under government. Remember, the US is also a Democracy and Health Care was Obama's biggest item on his election platform. The whole country new this and they elected him anyway. So now what? No it isn't. It's a Republic. An Important Distinction: Democracy versus Republic

08-04-2010, 10:50 PM - 1 Like	#10
troglodyte Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Oz Posts: 408	JeffJS, Tell that to our public schools, media and even the politicians. People are dumb and will say, 'that's a lie we're a democracy and we give other countries like Iraq democracy too!' I guess no one listens to the pledge, 'and to the republic.' Also ---------- Post added 08-04-10 at 09:53 PM ---------- the fact the Constitution never once says democracy but states over and over republic. People can't understand simple things even when shoved down their thoats!

08-05-2010, 12:27 AM	#11
JeffJS Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Michigan, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 7,484	Originally posted by troglodyte JeffJS, Tell that to our public schools, media and even the politicians. People are dumb and will say, 'that's a lie we're a democracy and we give other countries like Iraq democracy too!' I guess no one listens to the pledge, 'and to the republic.' Also ---------- Post added 08-04-10 at 09:53 PM ---------- the fact the Constitution never once says democracy but states over and over republic. People can't understand simple things even when shoved down their thoats! I would but since they are all running around with their heads up their butt I doubt they would hear it. The politicians don't know what the constitution (a document they are sworn to uphold) is, so I don't really expect the brainwashing centers and the media to have a clue either.

08-05-2010, 05:03 AM	#12
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,333	Originally posted by Wheatfield Check your voters statistics sometime, I'll bet you find the majority of poor people don't vote, which means that democracy tends to be very skewed towards the wishes of the rich. You're right; but the people (rich, poor, and in between) who don't vote, could vote if they wanted to. Anybody who doesn't vote abstained by choice, and anybody who doesn't vote has no legitimate complaint about the outcome.

08-05-2010, 06:26 AM	#13
mikemike Inactive Account Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: New Orleans Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,053 Original Poster	Originally posted by Wheatfield The problem with referendums (and actually democracy in general) is that they tend to pander more to the well off, since those are the people who are politically empowered. Check your voters statistics sometime, I'll bet you find the majority of poor people don't vote, which means that democracy tends to be very skewed towards the wishes of the rich. People who are well off, at least in America, tend to be well off because they have an internal locust of control and believe that they have the power to influence any situation to their benefit. That determination would help them rise to the top and skew any non-autocratic system of government to their favor. If you don't vote, your views will not get represented. I am very familiar with voter statistics, and politicians drive their marketing not by household income statistics but rather by voter habits. If you are a "chronic voter" who votes in every election you will get lots of mailers and calls whenever their is an election even if you didn't have two nickels to rub together. If you aren't registered to vote you won't get a shred of mail from politicians even if you were a billionaire.

08-05-2010, 06:31 AM	#14
stevewig Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 773	Originally posted by JeffJS No it isn't. It's a Republic. An Important Distinction: Democracy versus Republic Oh I see..... So you don't use the popular vote for establishing a new Government and President (based on their policies and election promises)? When they do assume the role of Government/President you do not expect them to keep and carry out their promises?

08-05-2010, 06:59 AM	#15
Ira Inactive Account Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Coral Springs, FL Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,216	Referendums are weird, because on the one hand, you would think it's a good thing to give the final say of a decision to the people--like offshore drilling in Florida. But how informed is the general public about how much money this really means to the state? (Mind you, I'm against it for environmental reasons, but I have no clue about the financial aspects.) Referendums had me witness the loss of democracy in Venezuela (a subject and country near and dear to me), where the people decided to say the hell with the Constitution and Chavez can be president forever. A referendum that FAILED the first time, shady political machinations followed, and was put up and illegally passed the second time. Referendums also saw me on line waiting to vote last general election, with dozens of blacks all excited and vocal about Obama and "finally getting their rights"--while also being quite vocal in their support for Proposition 8--denying those same rights to gays. Like I said, I think people are basically idiots, and unless aliens land and show us what to do, we're all doomed.