What's your religious affiliation?

Parallax · 08-13-2010, 01:55 PM

Good advice, Ash.

GeneV · 08-13-2010, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by Ash

Religion is a particularly delicate topic, because of how passionate people are, whether about their own faith or their choice not to have faith. So on the net it's important to tread wisely with such discussions - forums are hardly good forms of media for effective evangelism.

Well said. I find it very hard to have a religious discussion online without seeing it go south. (perhaps from where you are, it would be going north) Even on forums expressly for Christians, I've seen the discussion turn sour over differing interpretations of scriptures which both parties held in the same esteem.

**Ash** · 08-13-2010, 02:04 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by GeneV

Well said. I find it very hard to have a religious discussion online without seeing it go south. (perhaps from where you are, it would be going north) Even on forums expressly for Christians, I've seen the discussion turn sour over differing interpretations of scriptures which both parties held in the same esteem.

I take offense, Gene!
In fact, no, it's all right, the world is really like this:

Thanks for the comments.

gokenin · 08-13-2010, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by Ash

I take offense, Gene!
In fact, no, it's all right, the world is really like this:

Thanks for the comments.

that reminds me of the West Wing episode

You Tube

Last edited by gokenin; 08-13-2010 at 03:58 PM.

Ira · 08-14-2010, 06:22 AM

Originally posted by bombo

I was being sarcastic towards the statement proposed by Ira, a rather disturbing statement towards our atheist friends. In any case, you are not deluding yourself: images can in fact be captured on film or electronically.

How is it a disturbing statement towards atheists? (But you mean a disturbing commentary on atheists, right?)

I was just saying that, for example, if I know that water is made of two hydrogen molecules and one oxygen molecule, that's not something I really get enthusiastic about. I just know this to be true.

I feel this same way in my belief about God:

I know it to be true that there is no invisible man or spirit out there (although others may disagree), so this is not something I get enthusiastic about knowing. It's not about BELIEVING this and getting excited about this fact, because in my mind, I just know it.

In other words, while a lot of the world argues whether Jesus could beat up Mohammed in 12 rounds under standard WBA rules, and get enthusiastic about their fighter, I am neutral, without enthusiasm, because as the English expression goes:

"I don't have a dog in this fight."

You might not agree with my position, but at the least, I hope I'm explaining it right.

---------- Post added 08-14-10 at 06:26 AM ----------

And another thing:

How could anyone believe in God after looking at the price of the 15 Limited?

HAH!!!!!!!!!!!!

Parallax · 08-14-2010, 07:15 AM

Ira, I'm curious about something. Keep in mind that I have stated that beliefs are neither right or wrong, so I am just genuinely curious here. You said that you were forced to go to Hebrew school, and that there were apparently some issues with the Rabbi as well. At that time did you believe in God? In other words; did you lose a belief that you once had because of circumstances, or were the circumstances (the forced to go to school part) as unpleasant as they were because the belief wasn't there to begin with?

Ira · 08-14-2010, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by Parallax

Ira, I'm curious about something. Keep in mind that I have stated that beliefs are neither right or wrong, so I am just genuinely curious here. You said that you were forced to go to Hebrew school, and that there were apparently some issues with the Rabbi as well. At that time did you believe in God? In other words; did you lose a belief that you once had because of circumstances, or were the circumstances (the forced to go to school part) as unpleasant as they were because the belief wasn't there to begin with?

Do you believe a 6-year-old kid believes in anything? Kids are indoctrinated into this stuff.

So when I was 2, I believed in God, the same way I believed in the tooth fairy.

An interesting parallel, right? Because it's an accurate one?

bombo · 08-14-2010, 07:57 AM

Originally posted by Ira

You might not agree with my position, but at the least, I hope I'm explaining it right.[COLOR="Silver"]

Thanks for the clarification, I was just referring to the

"I also find no enthusiasm in atheism. That's a believer's emotion."

comment.

Originally posted by Parallax

Ira, I'm curious about something. Keep in mind that I have stated that beliefs are neither right or wrong, so I am just genuinely curious here.

Beliefs are indeed right or wrong, a belief is a representation of the state of the world, and can of course be verified. Examples:
-I believe my brother won't use my 31mm Limited while I am away from home - when in fact he might actually use it!
-I believe the Earth is flat!
Maybe we differ on the concept of belief, but in epistemology a belief is a premise which the believer holds to be true. Such belief can be verifiable and would later become knowledge. I don't know, maybe you mean something else.

Parallax · 08-14-2010, 08:12 AM

Originally posted by Ira

Do you believe a 6-year-old kid believes in anything? Kids are indoctrinated into this stuff.

So when I was 2, I believed in God, the same way I believed in the tooth fairy.

An interesting parallel, right? Because it's an accurate one?

Pretty good analogy, Ira.
Yes, I believe 6 year olds believe in a lot of things; recess, desert, that adults will always tell them the truth, ..................

As I said, I was curious. I genuinely am not challenging you.

---------- Post added 08-14-10 at 10:13 AM ----------

Originally posted by bombo

............Such belief can be verifiable and would later become knowledge. I don't know, maybe you mean something else.

At which point it is no longer a belief.

gokenin · 08-14-2010, 08:17 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by bombo

Thanks for the clarification, I was just referring to the

"I also find no enthusiasm in atheism. That's a believer's emotion."

comment.

Beliefs are indeed right or wrong, a belief is a representation of the state of the world, and can of course be verified. Examples:
-I believe my brother won't use my 31mm Limited while I am away from home - when in fact he might actually use it!
-I believe the Earth is flat!
Maybe we differ on the concept of belief, but in epistemology a belief is a premise which the believer holds to be true. Such belief can be verifiable and would later become knowledge. I don't know, maybe you mean something else.

OK I will admit it when it comes to this little sub thread about Atheism i am confused are you guys saying that it qualifies as a religion because its followers may not have orginizations (churches or places of worship) but it followers have to faith in it? I have to admit that I always find it funny when someone says that they are atheist because they don't believe in a God but isn't the definition of a religion is having a belief in something that can't be proven that requires you to have faith in its existance in the first place? So isn't the faith that there is no divine and that this limited existence while you live is all there is and all there ever will be a belief structure?

audiobomber · 08-14-2010, 10:00 AM

This has been a fun thread for me. I've found a label that feels comfortable:
"Panentheism: A doctrine that the universe is part of God, but that God nevertheless transcends or has some existence separate from the universe."

"Panentheism differs from Deism, which only postulates a god separate from nature. It differs from pantheism in that the latter identifies God with nature, although it agrees with pantheism that the god includes nature as a part of its being."

Organized religion has been as much a force for evil as good in this world. It requires nonsensical beliefs and positively reeks of priestcraft. Atheism doesn't make sense because I simply can't believe that all this is for nothing. Every life is its brief flash and is gone, for untold millenia? It's just too pointless. Pantheistic religions say that god created the universe and is hiding from himself in it. That too seems pointless, just a silly game.

I believe that creation must have a purpose. For something to have a purpose, it requires an intellect to contemplate that purpose. Panentheism says that god is in the universe and separate from it, which satisfies all my concerns. God created the universe, with its endless chaotic permutations, to watch and enjoy and learn from, and can be in it, and be separate from it.

In the final analysis, attempting to visualize god is futile, we can't know what the point of creation is, or our purpose in it. AFAIC, believe whatever you like, just don't get in others' faces about it and don't use religion as a way to justify evil (inquisition, holocaust, holy war, slavery, imperialism, genocide, prejudice, greed, lust, etc, etc.)

stevewig · 08-14-2010, 10:54 AM

Size is the most important aspect of existance. If we were all to shrink to the size of an electron we wouldn't even be aware of the existance of anything other than other electrons!

Besides, we all know what its like on the "other side" because 100 years ago each of us was on the other side.

jeffkrol · 08-14-2010, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by gokenin

that reminds me of the West Wing episode

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8zBC2dvERM

Stop that.. your going to make me watch more TV.... that was funny...
And I've got to admit, though I knew the "maps" were inaccurate I never did look at how inaccurate.....

http://www.petersmap.com/

gokenin · 08-14-2010, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by jeffkrol

Stop that.. your going to make me watch more TV.... that was funny...
And I've got to admit, though I knew the "maps" were inaccurate I never did look at how inaccurate.....

Peters Map

I must admit that I miss the West Wing it was a funny show

GeneV · 08-14-2010, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by gokenin

OK I will admit it when it comes to this little sub thread about Atheism i am confused are you guys saying that it qualifies as a religion because its followers may not have orginizations (churches or places of worship) but it followers have to faith in it? I have to admit that I always find it funny when someone says that they are atheist because they don't believe in a God but isn't the definition of a religion is having a belief in something that can't be proven that requires you to have faith in its existance in the first place? So isn't the faith that there is no divine and that this limited existence while you live is all there is and all there ever will be a belief structure?

I suppose that in part it depends upon whether having "belief" in a single idea is all there is to a "religion." Usually, that term refers to a much more extensive set of beliefs and practices. I would, perhaps, agree that being utterly convinced of the absence of God might involve some "faith," but it would be a stretch to my definition to call it a "religion."

View Poll Results: What is your belief system?
Atheist (no god)	69	39.20%
Agnostic (don't know, not ruling anything out)	31	17.61%
Monotheist and/or Christian Trinity (one god)	51	28.98%
Deist (god exists but it's not an active presence)	6	3.41%
Polytheist/Henotheist (many gods)	3	1.70%
Pluralist (all gods are one god)	3	1.70%
Pantheist (god is everything)	2	1.14%
Syncretist (all or many religions are correct in some fashion)	8	4.55%
Non-theistic religious (Buddhism, Taoism, Shinto, Confucianism)	3	1.70%
Voters: 176. You may not vote on this poll

08-14-2010, 10:00 AM	#56
audiobomber Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Sudbury, Ontario Photos: Albums Posts: 6,806	This has been a fun thread for me. I've found a label that feels comfortable: "Panentheism: A doctrine that the universe is part of God, but that God nevertheless transcends or has some existence separate from the universe." "Panentheism differs from Deism, which only postulates a god separate from nature. It differs from pantheism in that the latter identifies God with nature, although it agrees with pantheism that the god includes nature as a part of its being." Organized religion has been as much a force for evil as good in this world. It requires nonsensical beliefs and positively reeks of priestcraft. Atheism doesn't make sense because I simply can't believe that all this is for nothing. Every life is its brief flash and is gone, for untold millenia? It's just too pointless. Pantheistic religions say that god created the universe and is hiding from himself in it. That too seems pointless, just a silly game. I believe that creation must have a purpose. For something to have a purpose, it requires an intellect to contemplate that purpose. Panentheism says that god is in the universe and separate from it, which satisfies all my concerns. God created the universe, with its endless chaotic permutations, to watch and enjoy and learn from, and can be in it, and be separate from it. In the final analysis, attempting to visualize god is futile, we can't know what the point of creation is, or our purpose in it. AFAIC, believe whatever you like, just don't get in others' faces about it and don't use religion as a way to justify evil (inquisition, holocaust, holy war, slavery, imperialism, genocide, prejudice, greed, lust, etc, etc.) Last edited by audiobomber; 08-14-2010 at 10:23 AM.

08-14-2010, 11:06 AM	#58
jeffkrol Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wisconsin USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,434	Originally posted by gokenin that reminds me of the West Wing episode http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8zBC2dvERM Stop that.. your going to make me watch more TV.... that was funny... And I've got to admit, though I knew the "maps" were inaccurate I never did look at how inaccurate..... http://www.petersmap.com/ Last edited by jeffkrol; 08-14-2010 at 11:12 AM.

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08-13-2010, 01:55 PM	#46
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,333	Good advice, Ash.

08-13-2010, 01:57 PM	#47
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by Ash Religion is a particularly delicate topic, because of how passionate people are, whether about their own faith or their choice not to have faith. So on the net it's important to tread wisely with such discussions - forums are hardly good forms of media for effective evangelism. Well said. I find it very hard to have a religious discussion online without seeing it go south. (perhaps from where you are, it would be going north) Even on forums expressly for Christians, I've seen the discussion turn sour over differing interpretations of scriptures which both parties held in the same esteem.

08-13-2010, 02:04 PM - 1 Like	#48
Ash Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toowoomba, Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,920	Originally posted by GeneV Well said. I find it very hard to have a religious discussion online without seeing it go south. (perhaps from where you are, it would be going north) Even on forums expressly for Christians, I've seen the discussion turn sour over differing interpretations of scriptures which both parties held in the same esteem. I take offense, Gene! In fact, no, it's all right, the world is really like this: Thanks for the comments.

08-14-2010, 06:22 AM	#50
Ira Inactive Account Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Coral Springs, FL Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,216	Originally posted by bombo I was being sarcastic towards the statement proposed by Ira, a rather disturbing statement towards our atheist friends. In any case, you are not deluding yourself: images can in fact be captured on film or electronically. How is it a disturbing statement towards atheists? (But you mean a disturbing commentary on atheists, right?) I was just saying that, for example, if I know that water is made of two hydrogen molecules and one oxygen molecule, that's not something I really get enthusiastic about. I just know this to be true. I feel this same way in my belief about God: I know it to be true that there is no invisible man or spirit out there (although others may disagree), so this is not something I get enthusiastic about knowing. It's not about BELIEVING this and getting excited about this fact, because in my mind, I just know it. In other words, while a lot of the world argues whether Jesus could beat up Mohammed in 12 rounds under standard WBA rules, and get enthusiastic about their fighter, I am neutral, without enthusiasm, because as the English expression goes: "I don't have a dog in this fight." You might not agree with my position, but at the least, I hope I'm explaining it right. ---------- Post added 08-14-10 at 06:26 AM ---------- And another thing: How could anyone believe in God after looking at the price of the 15 Limited? HAH!!!!!!!!!!!!

08-14-2010, 07:15 AM	#51
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,333	Ira, I'm curious about something. Keep in mind that I have stated that beliefs are neither right or wrong, so I am just genuinely curious here. You said that you were forced to go to Hebrew school, and that there were apparently some issues with the Rabbi as well. At that time did you believe in God? In other words; did you lose a belief that you once had because of circumstances, or were the circumstances (the forced to go to school part) as unpleasant as they were because the belief wasn't there to begin with?

08-14-2010, 07:53 AM	#52
Ira Inactive Account Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Coral Springs, FL Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,216	Originally posted by Parallax Ira, I'm curious about something. Keep in mind that I have stated that beliefs are neither right or wrong, so I am just genuinely curious here. You said that you were forced to go to Hebrew school, and that there were apparently some issues with the Rabbi as well. At that time did you believe in God? In other words; did you lose a belief that you once had because of circumstances, or were the circumstances (the forced to go to school part) as unpleasant as they were because the belief wasn't there to begin with? Do you believe a 6-year-old kid believes in anything? Kids are indoctrinated into this stuff. So when I was 2, I believed in God, the same way I believed in the tooth fairy. An interesting parallel, right? Because it's an accurate one?

08-14-2010, 07:57 AM	#53
bombo Forum Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: France Photos: Gallery Posts: 64	Originally posted by Ira You might not agree with my position, but at the least, I hope I'm explaining it right.[COLOR="Silver"] Thanks for the clarification, I was just referring to the "I also find no enthusiasm in atheism. That's a believer's emotion." comment. Originally posted by Parallax Ira, I'm curious about something. Keep in mind that I have stated that beliefs are neither right or wrong, so I am just genuinely curious here. Beliefs are indeed right or wrong, a belief is a representation of the state of the world, and can of course be verified. Examples: -I believe my brother won't use my 31mm Limited while I am away from home - when in fact he might actually use it! -I believe the Earth is flat! Maybe we differ on the concept of belief, but in epistemology a belief is a premise which the believer holds to be true. Such belief can be verifiable and would later become knowledge. I don't know, maybe you mean something else.

08-14-2010, 08:12 AM	#54
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,333	Originally posted by Ira Do you believe a 6-year-old kid believes in anything? Kids are indoctrinated into this stuff. So when I was 2, I believed in God, the same way I believed in the tooth fairy. An interesting parallel, right? Because it's an accurate one? Pretty good analogy, Ira. Yes, I believe 6 year olds believe in a lot of things; recess, desert, that adults will always tell them the truth, .................. As I said, I was curious. I genuinely am not challenging you. ---------- Post added 08-14-10 at 10:13 AM ---------- Originally posted by bombo ............Such belief can be verifiable and would later become knowledge. I don't know, maybe you mean something else. At which point it is no longer a belief.

08-14-2010, 08:17 AM - 1 Like	#55
gokenin Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: lowell,ma Posts: 1,899	Originally posted by bombo Thanks for the clarification, I was just referring to the "I also find no enthusiasm in atheism. That's a believer's emotion." comment. Beliefs are indeed right or wrong, a belief is a representation of the state of the world, and can of course be verified. Examples: -I believe my brother won't use my 31mm Limited while I am away from home - when in fact he might actually use it! -I believe the Earth is flat! Maybe we differ on the concept of belief, but in epistemology a belief is a premise which the believer holds to be true. Such belief can be verifiable and would later become knowledge. I don't know, maybe you mean something else. OK I will admit it when it comes to this little sub thread about Atheism i am confused are you guys saying that it qualifies as a religion because its followers may not have orginizations (churches or places of worship) but it followers have to faith in it? I have to admit that I always find it funny when someone says that they are atheist because they don't believe in a God but isn't the definition of a religion is having a belief in something that can't be proven that requires you to have faith in its existance in the first place? So isn't the faith that there is no divine and that this limited existence while you live is all there is and all there ever will be a belief structure?

08-14-2010, 10:54 AM	#57
stevewig Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 773	Size is the most important aspect of existance. If we were all to shrink to the size of an electron we wouldn't even be aware of the existance of anything other than other electrons! Besides, we all know what its like on the "other side" because 100 years ago each of us was on the other side.

08-14-2010, 02:06 PM	#59
gokenin Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: lowell,ma Posts: 1,899	Originally posted by jeffkrol Stop that.. your going to make me watch more TV.... that was funny... And I've got to admit, though I knew the "maps" were inaccurate I never did look at how inaccurate..... Peters Map I must admit that I miss the West Wing it was a funny show

08-14-2010, 02:14 PM	#60
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by gokenin OK I will admit it when it comes to this little sub thread about Atheism i am confused are you guys saying that it qualifies as a religion because its followers may not have orginizations (churches or places of worship) but it followers have to faith in it? I have to admit that I always find it funny when someone says that they are atheist because they don't believe in a God but isn't the definition of a religion is having a belief in something that can't be proven that requires you to have faith in its existance in the first place? So isn't the faith that there is no divine and that this limited existence while you live is all there is and all there ever will be a belief structure? I suppose that in part it depends upon whether having "belief" in a single idea is all there is to a "religion." Usually, that term refers to a much more extensive set of beliefs and practices. I would, perhaps, agree that being utterly convinced of the absence of God might involve some "faith," but it would be a stretch to my definition to call it a "religion."